How to merge adjustment of mask

[shojtsy]

In AP 1.6.1, I have a mask with a Curves adjustment in Alpha channel nested as child layer of the mask.

How can I merge the adjustment into the mask?

For example clicking the Merge button in the dialog of the Curves layer does not seem to do anything other then adding a new entry to the history.

 

[- S -]

You could try this.

- CTRL + Click on the parent layer icon that both the Mask layer and the Curves Adjustment layer are nested under, which will generate a selection (marching ants)
- Delete the Mask layer and the Curves Adjustment layer by clicking their icons one at a time and using the trash icon at the bottom of the Layers panel
- Click the 'Mask Layer' icon at the bottom of the Layers panel, which should create a new mask from the selection

[shojtsy]

Thanks.

My mask was not nested under any parent layer, and your technique did not work when using on the mask itself, as it was ignoring the effect of the curves. So I needed to create a new fill layer, nest the mask in it, and then do what you have described, followed by the deletion of the fill layer. Ahh, this is really convoluted!

[R C-R]

5 hours ago, shojtsy said:

Ahh, this is really convoluted!

A simpler approach is to use the mask layer already built into adjustment layers. The "Using Adjustment Layers on Masks (Affinity Photo)" video tutorial (YouTube link or Vimeo link) explains how to do this, starting at about the 1:40 mark.

[shojtsy]

Thanks R C-R, but I am afraid there is a misunderstanding. I am not trying to use a mask to limit the effects of an adjustment layer. I am using an adjustment layer to change the mask, and then use the mask to make areas of my image transparent. In such a setup, as in the below screenshot, I am looking for a way to merge the adjustment of the mask into the mask itself, and end up with a pixel layer and just a mask. Note that the pixel layer already may have some transparency, and I would like to keep it separately editable from the mask.

 

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, shojtsy said:

In such a setup, as in the below screenshot, I am looking for a way to merge the adjustment of the mask into the mask itself, and end up with a pixel layer and just a mask.

Adjustment layers affect the pixels of the layers they are applied to. Masks do not have pixels, just an alpha channel that determines the transparency of pixels of the layers the mask is applied to. The mask's alpha channel can be displayed as a grayscale pixel layer for editing purposes but it does not actually contain any pixels for an adjustment layer to affect.

 

Thus, there is no way to "merge" an adjustment & mask layer such that the adjustment will affect only the mask.

[JimmyJack]

@shojtsy can you not right click on the "Edges (mask)" layer (it'll include the curves adjustment) and select Mask to below?

You will end up with just a single mask within the Background (pixel) layer.

[shojtsy]

4 hours ago, JimmyJack said:

@shojtsy can you not right click on the "Edges (mask)" layer (it'll include the curves adjustment) and select Mask to below?

You will end up with just a single mask within the Background (pixel) layer.

Unfortunately no, this only hides the curves layer from display on the layer panel (which is another problem). You can see that the curves adjustment is still there if you drag out the mask to standalone, and the curves adjustment is shown again.

[shojtsy]

8 hours ago, R C-R said:

Adjustment layers affect the pixels of the layers they are applied to. Masks do not have pixels, just an alpha channel that determines the transparency of pixels of the layers the mask is applied to. The mask's alpha channel can be displayed as a grayscale pixel layer for editing purposes but it does not actually contain any pixels for an adjustment layer to affect.

 

Thus, there is no way to "merge" an adjustment & mask layer such that the adjustment will affect only the mask.

I am not sure if you say that the Alpha channel Curve layer I have created has no effect (because it does), or that it is applied to the underlying Background pixel layer (which would make it identical to being below the mask, and trying that produces a different result), or that it is applied to the pixels resulting after masking (which would make it identical to being above the mask, and trying that produces a different result also). I have attached a simplified example so you can experiment with moving the adjustment layer.

 

If you have a Curves adjustment nested in a mask with partially transparent areas, and you change the Master channel curve it has no effect, however if you change the Alpha channel curve it has an effect. This behavior is not consistent with a mindset in which the adjustment is applied to the underlying pixels being masked, nor with a mindset in which the adjustment is applied on the pixels resulting after masking, because in these cases the Master channel curve would have an effect. It is consistent with a mindset where the adjustment is applied to the mask itself before applying the mask. This explains why the Alpha channel Curve has an effect (as the mask had Alpha channel), and also why the Master channel curve has no effect (as the mask does not have RGB channels).

 

alpha_curve_on_adjustment.afphoto

[lepr]

.

[R C-R]

14 minutes ago, owenr said:

On 12/3/2017 at 4:43 PM, shojtsy said:

In AP 1.6.1, I have a mask with a Curves adjustment in Alpha channel nested as child layer of the mask.

How can I merge the adjustment into the mask?

For example clicking the Merge button in the dialog of the Curves layer does not seem to do anything other then adding a new entry to the history.

 

 

That is a reasonable thing to expect to work, so I think it's just a scenario that the developers haven't considered, rather than something not possible to implement. You should post a request for the functionality to be added.

 

From the builtin help topic, Applying adjustments (emphasis added):

Quote

• Merge—merges the current adjustment layer with the layer immediately below it in the layer order.

 

Since there is no layer immediately below the adjustment layer in the example @shojtsy provided, why would anyone expect that to do anything?

[lepr]

.

 

 

[shojtsy]

13 minutes ago, owenr said:

 

It would be expected by anyone who has merged a child Adjustment object into a parent Pixel object. Try it. It works, so it is reasonable to expect an alpha-targeting Adjustment to be merge-able with a parent Mask object.

I agree. Furthermore if merging doesn't make sense in some scenario, I think the merge button should be disabled, and clicking it should not create an entry in history.

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, owenr said:

It would be expected by anyone who has merged a child Adjustment object into a parent Pixel object.

Why would this be expected? In Affinity Photo Pixel layers contain pixels. Mask layers do not. Thus, there are no pixels in the mask layer for the adjustment layer to target, & no such thing as "alpha-targeting Adjustments" in Affinity Photo.

 

If that is what is desired, then as you said earlier it should be requested in the Feature Requests, Suggestions and Feedback forum.

[shojtsy]

40 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Why would this be expected? In Affinity Photo Pixel layers contain pixels. Mask layers do not. Thus, there are no pixels in the mask layer for the adjustment layer to target, & no such thing as "alpha-targeting Adjustments" in Affinity Photo.

 

If that is what is desired, then as you said earlier it should be requested in the Feature Requests, Suggestions and Feedback forum.

Not only there are alpha-targeting adjustments, but I did just that. A Curves adjustment with changes to the Alpha channel curve. If the adjustment is not targeting alpha why does it make a difference in my image (and you can test yourself that it does)?

 

It was not my own idea that alpha adjustment is a thing:

 

 

[walt.farrell]

On 12/3/2017 at 5:43 PM, shojtsy said:

In AP 1.6.1, I have a mask with a Curves adjustment in Alpha channel nested as child layer of the mask.

How can I merge the adjustment into the mask?

For example clicking the Merge button in the dialog of the Curves layer does not seem to do anything other then adding a new entry to the history.

 

Sorry to drag this in a slightly different direction, but I'm curious what different effect you would expect if you could merge the adjustment into the mask? That is, how would one expect the merged adjustment to behave, as compared to the non-merged adjustment?

Thanks.

[R C-R]

19 minutes ago, shojtsy said:

Not only there are alpha-targeting adjustments, but I did just that. A Curves adjustment with changes to the Alpha channel curve. If the adjustment is not targeting alpha why does it make a difference in my image (and you can test yourself that it does)?

OK, I admit that my 'no such thing' comment was a poor choice to express what I was trying to say. But it remains true that Adjustment layers can only target the alpha channel of Affinity mask layers (because they have no other channels to target), so if you want masks to respond differently to Adjustment layers, you should submit that as a feature request.

[shojtsy]

14 minutes ago, R C-R said:

OK, I admit that my 'no such thing' comment was a poor choice to express what I was trying to say. But it remains true that Adjustment layers can only target the alpha channel of Affinity mask layers (because they have no other channels to target), so if you want masks to respond differently to Adjustment layers, you should submit that as a feature request.

I am afraid there is still a misunderstanding. The request was that I have a perfectly working live Alpha Curve adjustment nested in a mask, and I would like to destructively merge the Alpha Curves adjustment into the mask it affects. Sima already provided a way to do this (thanks again), which I find convoluted, while it working by clicking on the Merge button of the adjustment would be consistent with the behavior of adjustments in different layer setups.

 

25 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Sorry to drag this in a slightly different direction, but I'm curious what different effect you would expect if you could merge the adjustment into the mask? That is, how would one expect the merged adjustment to behave, as compared to the non-merged adjustment?

Merging live adjustments of mask is good for

1) ability to further edit the merged mask without those further edits also being affected by the adjustment

2) helping to avoid confusion by removing a layer which is affecting the result, but hidden from view in the layer panel if the mask itself is nested in a pixel layer, and 

3) performance

It would lesser problem if it would be possible to destructively apply an adjustment without creating a live adjustment layer first.

[R C-R]

9 minutes ago, shojtsy said:

I am afraid there is still a misunderstanding. The request was that I have a perfectly working live Alpha Curve adjustment nested in a mask, and I would like to destructively merge the Alpha Curves adjustment into the mask it affects.

Regardless of any misunderstanding, this is a feature request.

[shojtsy]

ok, done

 

[lepr]

.

[R C-R]

13 minutes ago, owenr said:

A Mask object is made of pixels.

If there is any mention of this in the help topics, I cannot find it. All I can find simply states that masks are layers that can be used to non-destructively reveal a portion of a layer while the rest of it remains hidden.

 

I am aware that Photoshop help says its masks are composed of pixels, but Affinity Photo is not PS, so are you perhaps assuming too much that applies to PS also applies to AP?

[lepr]

.

 

[John Rostron]

Perhaps masks are composed of virtual pixels (whatever they might be).

[JimmyJack]

13 hours ago, shojtsy said:

.......this only hides the curves layer from display on the layer panel (which is another problem). You can see that the curves adjustment is still there if you drag out the mask to standalone, and the curves adjustment is shown again.

 

Aha, would ya look at that.That is a little surprising.

 

So I have a fairly easy workaround (up to you to decide).

1) Add a pixel layer under your Mask+Adjust combo. (color doesn't matter, just 100% opacity)

2) Select both and Merge Selected.

3) Drag the result to the mask position of the background layer. (note: I did not rasterize to mask. If you want to use Rasterize to Mask instead, use a white pixel layer specifically.)

 

On December 3, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Sima said:

You could try this.

- CTRL + Click on the parent layer icon that both the Mask layer and the Curves Adjustment layer are nested under, which will generate a selection (marching ants)
- Delete the Mask layer and the Curves Adjustment layer by clicking their icons one at a time and using the trash icon at the bottom of the Layers panel
- Click the 'Mask Layer' icon at the bottom of the Layers panel, which should create a new mask from the selection

 

I don't believe the first step honors the Curves Adjustment nested inside the mask...... 

 

My method below:

alpha_curve_on_adjustment jj.afphoto