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4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I see no detectable change if I either enable or delete the empty pixel layer.

 

3 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

Ive just tried deleting the pixel layer and no change in the image occurs?

 

 

After hitting delete change the zoom by 1% (or anything).

Major weirdness for me.

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weird.PNG.e83b3c4a24db76af22f010ca3f6c47b5.PNG

freaky, looks like this for me, add a pixel layer back and it goes back to "Normal"


iMac 27" Late 2015 Fully Loaded, iMac 27" Mid 2011 both running High Sierra 10.13.6 - Dell Inspiron 17 5767 i7 Laptop Windows 10 - Affinity Designer/Photo, Publisher Beta 1.7.0.140, Illustrator CC, Inkscape, Blender, Sketchup, Pepakura Designer, MTC, Pixelmator & Pixelmator Pro + more... XP-Pen Deco 03 Pen Tablet, XP-Pen Artist12, 5 pages on LaunchPad - iPad2 iOS 9.35 B|  Instagram & Flickr - Affinity Designer (ADe) Tutorials - Affinity Photo (APh) Tutorials - Public Domain Images

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8 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

freaky yes, it gets freaky, add a pixel layer back and it goes back to "Normal"

 

The little preview in the Navigation tab never wavers. 

Render engine bug... me thinks.

 

Without deleting anything changing the zoom to below 100%  all blends seem to be ignored.

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2 minutes ago, JimmyJack said:

 

The little preview in the Navigation tab never wavers. 

Render engine bug... me thinks.

The pixel layer has to be in-between the group folders, even if you put it within its own group folder, as long as it's in-between the initial group folders it won't get freaky.


iMac 27" Late 2015 Fully Loaded, iMac 27" Mid 2011 both running High Sierra 10.13.6 - Dell Inspiron 17 5767 i7 Laptop Windows 10 - Affinity Designer/Photo, Publisher Beta 1.7.0.140, Illustrator CC, Inkscape, Blender, Sketchup, Pepakura Designer, MTC, Pixelmator & Pixelmator Pro + more... XP-Pen Deco 03 Pen Tablet, XP-Pen Artist12, 5 pages on LaunchPad - iPad2 iOS 9.35 B|  Instagram & Flickr - Affinity Designer (ADe) Tutorials - Affinity Photo (APh) Tutorials - Public Domain Images

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21 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

freaky yes, it gets freaky, add a pixel layer back and it goes back to "Normal"

Also freaky, using the History slider to go back to the originally opened state after deleting the pixel layer & zooming does not restore the original appearance on the canvas & now the Nav panel shows the original instead of the other way around.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.9.81 & Affinity Designer 1.6..2.24 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.0

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Some caching occurs, which might be reasonable feature given that deleting disabled layers should not change the result. Try to force a redraw after deleting the pixel layer, by disabling the layer group and then re-enabling it. See the screenshots here

 

layer_group_blending_workaround_after_delete.jpg

layer_group_blending_workaround_before_delete.jpg

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6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Also freaky, using the History slider to go back to the originally opened state after deleting the pixel layer & zooming does not restore the original appearance on the canvas & now the Nav panel shows the original instead of the other way around.

@R C-R It does for me, going back to original open state and zooming brings back the original look, the navigation panel always stays the same O.o


iMac 27" Late 2015 Fully Loaded, iMac 27" Mid 2011 both running High Sierra 10.13.6 - Dell Inspiron 17 5767 i7 Laptop Windows 10 - Affinity Designer/Photo, Publisher Beta 1.7.0.140, Illustrator CC, Inkscape, Blender, Sketchup, Pepakura Designer, MTC, Pixelmator & Pixelmator Pro + more... XP-Pen Deco 03 Pen Tablet, XP-Pen Artist12, 5 pages on LaunchPad - iPad2 iOS 9.35 B|  Instagram & Flickr - Affinity Designer (ADe) Tutorials - Affinity Photo (APh) Tutorials - Public Domain Images

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@shojtsy Nope disabling groups, minimising Affinity Photo, Saving As and a few other things does not remove the effect when the pixel layer is deleted.


iMac 27" Late 2015 Fully Loaded, iMac 27" Mid 2011 both running High Sierra 10.13.6 - Dell Inspiron 17 5767 i7 Laptop Windows 10 - Affinity Designer/Photo, Publisher Beta 1.7.0.140, Illustrator CC, Inkscape, Blender, Sketchup, Pepakura Designer, MTC, Pixelmator & Pixelmator Pro + more... XP-Pen Deco 03 Pen Tablet, XP-Pen Artist12, 5 pages on LaunchPad - iPad2 iOS 9.35 B|  Instagram & Flickr - Affinity Designer (ADe) Tutorials - Affinity Photo (APh) Tutorials - Public Domain Images

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Just now, firstdefence said:

@shojtsy Nope disabling groups, minimising Affinity Photo, Saving As and a few other things does not remove the effect when the pixel layer is deleted.

What I have meant is that the very bright image (rendering bug) is not immediately displayed after deleting the pixel layer. The reason for that I suppose is that the image area is not refreshed because there is probably some optimization in the application to avoid rendering when a change is done which is assumed to be irrelevant. And deleting a disabled layer should be an irrelevant change for the purpose of rendering.

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51 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

@R C-R It does for me, going back to original open state and zooming brings back the original look, the navigation panel always stays the same O.o

So I suppose it is also freaky that we get different results.... 164.gif


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.9.81 & Affinity Designer 1.6..2.24 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.0

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Now that we have established this rendering bug, please go back to post #1 in this thread, where the same thing is happening. Do you now agree that the two layer setups are supposed to produce the same result? Because they do after adding the empty layer trick.

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3 hours ago, firstdefence said:

Ive just tried deleting the pixel layer and no change in the image occurs?

  • (Group) - Vivid Light
    • (Group) - Passthrough
      • (Pixel) < Deleted this layer
      • (Gaussian Blur)
      • (Invert Adjustment)
  • Background (Pixel)

 

That layer order is not what I see. For me, the pixel layer you deleted is above the Passthrough group, not within it.

And I do see a difference, but it depends on how I delete the pixel layer. If I simply highlight the layer and hit Del, the layer is deleted but nothing changes in the rendering. On the other hand, if I highlight the layer and drag it to the trashcan, the result changes drastically.

The first screenshot is what I see initially. The second when I drag the layer to the trashcan.

Also, note the layer previews in the layer stack in the initial view. The icon for the layer above the background layer is not rendered in the layer stack until I touch (select, highlight) the empty pixel layer. Then the icon renders.

[Edit: Affinity Beta 1.6.3.98 on Windows.]

 

First.png

second.png


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, April 2018 Update (1803), 16.0GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz
Affinity Photo 1.6.5.123 and 1.6.5.123 Beta
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8 minutes ago, shojtsy said:

Now that we have established this rendering bug, please go back to post #1 in this thread, where the same thing is happening. Do you now agree that the two layer setups are supposed to produce the same result?

Truthfully, I have no idea if they should or not, why I get different results using the history panel, or even if this is a rendering bug or something else, like maybe that it puts the layer stack in an ambiguous state that the app was never designed to resolve.

 

But the main thing is it is a bug of some kind, & it can be demonstrated with the sample file, so the developers should be able to at least identify the cause & hopefully fix it in the next version.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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@walt.farrell Thanks for pointing that out, brain was mush last night, changed to correct layer structure.


iMac 27" Late 2015 Fully Loaded, iMac 27" Mid 2011 both running High Sierra 10.13.6 - Dell Inspiron 17 5767 i7 Laptop Windows 10 - Affinity Designer/Photo, Publisher Beta 1.7.0.140, Illustrator CC, Inkscape, Blender, Sketchup, Pepakura Designer, MTC, Pixelmator & Pixelmator Pro + more... XP-Pen Deco 03 Pen Tablet, XP-Pen Artist12, 5 pages on LaunchPad - iPad2 iOS 9.35 B|  Instagram & Flickr - Affinity Designer (ADe) Tutorials - Affinity Photo (APh) Tutorials - Public Domain Images

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to @R C-R

 

When you apply a blending mode to an adjustments layer it works in the following way:

1. adjustments are applied (in the Normal mode) to the background

2. the result of step 1 is blended (in the selected blend mode) with the background

 

When you apply a blending mode to a group that contains only adjustments it works the same way:

1. all adjustments are applied in the Normal mode

2. the result of step 1 is blended with the background

 

That is, the blending mode is applied only once, it is logical that in the case of live filters it must work the same way.

 

For example, if you create a group of three Blur filters, each filter should be applied in the Normal mode, and then the blured result blended with the original image in the group’s mode.

 

But now it looks as if first the image is blended with itself, and then apply filters each with a blending mode. (this is what I said "applied twice")

 

 

to @shojtsy

 

I created the bug report:

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/53376-blend-mode-on-group-of-live-filters/

 

 

About this layer stack and what does the empty layer:

 

blend-mode-group-adjustments.png.597233fd03997ad158600367787a75ca.png

 

The empty layer need to change the behavior of the group:

 

On 25.10.2017 at 0:11 PM, Chris_K said:

If a group has only adjustments and filters in it (so it shows the folder icon) it will affect the elements outside the group. As soon as you add an element such as a pixel layer, fill layer, Image layer, vector layer etc the adjustments will only affect what is inside that group, leaving elements outside untouched. This is an intended behaviour.

 

So, there is a strange behavior, the second group of adjustments and filters see outside the parent group (group with the Vivid Light mode). And then the parent group blend down the result of second group in Vivid Light mode.

 

And yes:

 

9 hours ago, shojtsy said:

Some caching occurs. Try to force a redraw after deleting the pixel layer, by disabling the layer group and then re-enabling it.

 

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10 minutes ago, Yevgeny Makarov said:

to @R C-R

 

When you apply a blending mode to an adjustments layer it works in the following way:

1. adjustments are applied (in the Normal mode) to the background

2. the result of step 1 is blended (in the selected blend mode) with the background

 

When you apply a blending mode to a group that contains only adjustments it works the same way: ...

 

Is this an assumption you have made or from something you have seen in the documentation for the app or what? I ask because this does not seem to be the way it actually works, at least for some combinations of adjustments, filters, & blend modes.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.9.81 & Affinity Designer 1.6..2.24 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.0

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6 minutes ago, Yevgeny Makarov said:
 

I had another one here

 

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/48650-adding-pixel-layer-w-blend-mode-to-grouped-layers-messes-up-visibility/&do=findComment&comment=243403

I think it is a simplified description that a layer group ignores background for its own calculation when it contains a pixel layer. When your layer group contains adjustment layers below the pixel layer, those adjustments can only be applied on the background, because there is nothing else they can act on. Also if you have a pixel layer in a layer group and the pixel layer itself has a blend mode other than Normal, it needs the background first to calculate the image contributed by the layer group, and then uses the background again to blend the layer group with it using the blend mode of the layer group. You can experiment with this by having a layer group with Darker Color blend mode and put into it a pixel layer which itself has a Color mode for example. The resulting blend math can only be explained by the pixel layer inside the group also being blended onto the background before the layer group is blended again with the background.

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10 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Is this an assumption you have made or from something you have seen in the documentation for the app or what? I ask because this does not seem to be the way it actually works, at least for some combinations of adjustments, filters, & blend modes.

Groups of adjustment layers only (no live filters) work like this for me as well. Live filters in a group do not blend like this because they are buggy. Live filters outside group do blend like this. Do you have examples where blending works differently for a group of adjustment layers only?

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@shojtsy I am working under the assumption that this is intended to work as @Chris_K explained in this post. IOW, there is by intent a difference between what a group without a pixel, object, fill, or other similar element will affect & one that does include one of those elements.

 

Of course, this does not explain the odd rendering behavior or the disparity between what the canvas & nav panel shows or any of the rest of it, so clearly there is a bug somewhere that needs to be fixed, but the assumption that what is in a group layer should have no effect on how it is applied or blended with the layers below seems a dubious one.

 

EDIT: I see that @Chris_K has responded to the post started by @Yevgeny Makarov in the Bugs on Mac forum, confirming that there does seem to be a bug, even taking into account the differences in how the content of groups affect blending. I don't know if it is worth posting anything similar in the Bugs on Windows forum, since this bug appears to be present in both the Mac & Windows apps....


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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In Photoshop everything works in an obvious way:

  1. if a group is in the Passthrough mode it is as if there is no group, the blending order is not changed
  2. if a group mode is Normal, first blended all layers in this group (nothing interacts with the layers outside of the group) then group is considered as a single layer in Normal mode
  3. if a group mode is Multiply (for example), also the layers in this group are not interacts with the layers outside of the group, group is considered as a single layer and blend down in Multiply mode

That is, if the group mode is not Passthrough, for example adjustment layers in the group do not affect the layers below the group.

 

In Affinity there is two difference:

  1. If a group contains both adjustments and pixel layers, these adjustments only affect layers in the group. Adjustments would like to ignore Passthrough mode, how would masking by layers.
  2. And if a group has only adjustments in it (so it shows the folder icon) it will affect the elements outside the group.

 

1 hour ago, shojtsy said:

I think it is a simplified description that a layer group ignores background for its own calculation when it contains a pixel layer. When your layer group contains adjustment layers below the pixel layer, those adjustments can only be applied on the background, because there is nothing else they can act on. Also if you have a pixel layer in a layer group and the pixel layer itself has a blend mode other than Normal, it needs the background first to calculate the image contributed by the layer group, and then uses the background again to blend the layer group with it using the blend mode of the layer group. You can experiment with this by having a layer group with Darker Color blend mode and put into it a pixel layer which itself has a Color mode for example. The resulting blend math can only be explained by the pixel layer inside the group also being blended onto the background before the layer group is blended again with the background.

 

If you have a group not in Passthrough, the layers inside the group are not interact with the layers outside of the group. If the bottom layer in the group has its own blending mode it just ignores.

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I suspect that it is less that PS actually works in a particularly obvious way & more that PS users are just more familiar with it working that way. ;)

 

But regardless of that, this would not be the first time that assuming everything in Affinity works the same as in PS causes confusion. For that matter, assuming that everything in one Adobe app works the same as in all the other Adobe apps often does the same thing. :o


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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I've just encountered something I don't understand, and thought someone here might be able to help educate me. I'm using this thread because I discovered it using the .afphoto file that shojtsy supplied in this post above. 

That file gives me the first image below I've included below. (Using Affinity Photo Beta 1.6.3.98 on Windows.)

If I then switch to the color panel, and click on (not drag) its color picker, I get my second image below. The history shows that my 1 click seems to have resulted in two "set fill" actions.

I don't know enough to understand what simply clicking on that color picker should have done; the only documentation says it should be dragged into the image. Nor do I know why a single click should have caused two actions to be recorded in the history. So I don't know whether this is just something I'm ignorant of, or something I should try to describe in a bugs topic so it can be looked at by the developers. Thanks for any insight you can provide (and apologies for hijacking the thread this way).

fifth.png

sixth.png


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, April 2018 Update (1803), 16.0GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz
Affinity Photo 1.6.5.123 and 1.6.5.123 Beta
Affinity Designer 1.6..5.123 and 1.6.5.123 Beta
Affinity Publisher 1.7.0.145 Beta

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It seems this is a bug. If you select a group (in the Layers panel) and set the color (in the Color panel or by Color Picker Tool) then all pixel layers in the group will be filled with this color.

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Thanks; that may explain what I'm seeing.

In part I'm unsure as there's no documented behavior, that I have found, for what should happen if one clicks on that picker instead of dragging it. And if one drags that color picker into the image, nothing visible happens except sampling a color. The layers are not changed.

Also, the "click"  seems to be taking the color from the extreme upper right of the window, outside of the bounds of the actual document.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, April 2018 Update (1803), 16.0GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz
Affinity Photo 1.6.5.123 and 1.6.5.123 Beta
Affinity Designer 1.6..5.123 and 1.6.5.123 Beta
Affinity Publisher 1.7.0.145 Beta

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On 2018. 01. 12. at 10:21 PM, walt.farrell said:

Thanks; that may explain what I'm seeing.

In part I'm unsure as there's no documented behavior, that I have found, for what should happen if one clicks on that picker instead of dragging it. And if one drags that color picker into the image, nothing visible happens except sampling a color. The layers are not changed.

Also, the "click"  seems to be taking the color from the extreme upper right of the window, outside of the bounds of the actual document.

My experience is that clicking on the picker sets the brush color to what the picker memory stores. Picker memory is what you have last picked, and is application-wide, so it is transferred between documents, and is not saved inside your afphoto files.

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