JimmyJack Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, R C-R said: I see no detectable change if I either enable or delete the empty pixel layer. 3 minutes ago, firstdefence said: Ive just tried deleting the pixel layer and no change in the image occurs? After hitting delete change the zoom by 1% (or anything). Major weirdness for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstdefence Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 freaky, looks like this for me, add a pixel layer back and it goes back to "Normal" Quote iMac 27" 2019 Somona 14.3.1, iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJack Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, firstdefence said: freaky yes, it gets freaky, add a pixel layer back and it goes back to "Normal" The little preview in the Navigation tab never wavers. Render engine bug... me thinks. Without deleting anything changing the zoom to below 100% all blends seem to be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstdefence Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, JimmyJack said: The little preview in the Navigation tab never wavers. Render engine bug... me thinks. The pixel layer has to be in-between the group folders, even if you put it within its own group folder, as long as it's in-between the initial group folders it won't get freaky. Quote iMac 27" 2019 Somona 14.3.1, iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, firstdefence said: freaky yes, it gets freaky, add a pixel layer back and it goes back to "Normal" Also freaky, using the History slider to go back to the originally opened state after deleting the pixel layer & zooming does not restore the original appearance on the canvas & now the Nav panel shows the original instead of the other way around. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shojtsy Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Some caching occurs, which might be reasonable feature given that deleting disabled layers should not change the result. Try to force a redraw after deleting the pixel layer, by disabling the layer group and then re-enabling it. See the screenshots here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstdefence Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, R C-R said: Also freaky, using the History slider to go back to the originally opened state after deleting the pixel layer & zooming does not restore the original appearance on the canvas & now the Nav panel shows the original instead of the other way around. @R C-R It does for me, going back to original open state and zooming brings back the original look, the navigation panel always stays the same Quote iMac 27" 2019 Somona 14.3.1, iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstdefence Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 @shojtsy Nope disabling groups, minimising Affinity Photo, Saving As and a few other things does not remove the effect when the pixel layer is deleted. Quote iMac 27" 2019 Somona 14.3.1, iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shojtsy Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, firstdefence said: @shojtsy Nope disabling groups, minimising Affinity Photo, Saving As and a few other things does not remove the effect when the pixel layer is deleted. What I have meant is that the very bright image (rendering bug) is not immediately displayed after deleting the pixel layer. The reason for that I suppose is that the image area is not refreshed because there is probably some optimization in the application to avoid rendering when a change is done which is assumed to be irrelevant. And deleting a disabled layer should be an irrelevant change for the purpose of rendering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 51 minutes ago, firstdefence said: @R C-R It does for me, going back to original open state and zooming brings back the original look, the navigation panel always stays the same So I suppose it is also freaky that we get different results.... Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shojtsy Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 Now that we have established this rendering bug, please go back to post #1 in this thread, where the same thing is happening. Do you now agree that the two layer setups are supposed to produce the same result? Because they do after adding the empty layer trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, firstdefence said: Ive just tried deleting the pixel layer and no change in the image occurs? (Group) - Vivid Light (Group) - Passthrough (Pixel) < Deleted this layer (Gaussian Blur) (Invert Adjustment) Background (Pixel) That layer order is not what I see. For me, the pixel layer you deleted is above the Passthrough group, not within it. And I do see a difference, but it depends on how I delete the pixel layer. If I simply highlight the layer and hit Del, the layer is deleted but nothing changes in the rendering. On the other hand, if I highlight the layer and drag it to the trashcan, the result changes drastically. The first screenshot is what I see initially. The second when I drag the layer to the trashcan. Also, note the layer previews in the layer stack in the initial view. The icon for the layer above the background layer is not rendered in the layer stack until I touch (select, highlight) the empty pixel layer. Then the icon renders. [Edit: Affinity Beta 1.6.3.98 on Windows.] Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 8 minutes ago, shojtsy said: Now that we have established this rendering bug, please go back to post #1 in this thread, where the same thing is happening. Do you now agree that the two layer setups are supposed to produce the same result? Truthfully, I have no idea if they should or not, why I get different results using the history panel, or even if this is a rendering bug or something else, like maybe that it puts the layer stack in an ambiguous state that the app was never designed to resolve. But the main thing is it is a bug of some kind, & it can be demonstrated with the sample file, so the developers should be able to at least identify the cause & hopefully fix it in the next version. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstdefence Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 @walt.farrell Thanks for pointing that out, brain was mush last night, changed to correct layer structure. Quote iMac 27" 2019 Somona 14.3.1, iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenkm Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 to @R C-R When you apply a blending mode to an adjustments layer it works in the following way: 1. adjustments are applied (in the Normal mode) to the background 2. the result of step 1 is blended (in the selected blend mode) with the background When you apply a blending mode to a group that contains only adjustments it works the same way: 1. all adjustments are applied in the Normal mode 2. the result of step 1 is blended with the background That is, the blending mode is applied only once, it is logical that in the case of live filters it must work the same way. For example, if you create a group of three Blur filters, each filter should be applied in the Normal mode, and then the blured result blended with the original image in the group’s mode. But now it looks as if first the image is blended with itself, and then apply filters each with a blending mode. (this is what I said "applied twice") to @shojtsy I created the bug report: https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/53376-blend-mode-on-group-of-live-filters/ About this layer stack and what does the empty layer: The empty layer need to change the behavior of the group: On 25.10.2017 at 0:11 PM, Chris_K said: If a group has only adjustments and filters in it (so it shows the folder icon) it will affect the elements outside the group. As soon as you add an element such as a pixel layer, fill layer, Image layer, vector layer etc the adjustments will only affect what is inside that group, leaving elements outside untouched. This is an intended behaviour. So, there is a strange behavior, the second group of adjustments and filters see outside the parent group (group with the Vivid Light mode). And then the parent group blend down the result of second group in Vivid Light mode. And yes: 9 hours ago, shojtsy said: Some caching occurs. Try to force a redraw after deleting the pixel layer, by disabling the layer group and then re-enabling it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Yevgeny Makarov said: to @R C-R When you apply a blending mode to an adjustments layer it works in the following way: 1. adjustments are applied (in the Normal mode) to the background 2. the result of step 1 is blended (in the selected blend mode) with the background When you apply a blending mode to a group that contains only adjustments it works the same way: ... Is this an assumption you have made or from something you have seen in the documentation for the app or what? I ask because this does not seem to be the way it actually works, at least for some combinations of adjustments, filters, & blend modes. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shojtsy Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Yevgeny Makarov said: I created the bug report: https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/53376-blend-mode-on-group-of-live-filters/ I had another one here https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/48650-adding-pixel-layer-w-blend-mode-to-grouped-layers-messes-up-visibility/&do=findComment&comment=243403 I think it is a simplified description that a layer group ignores background for its own calculation when it contains a pixel layer. When your layer group contains adjustment layers below the pixel layer, those adjustments can only be applied on the background, because there is nothing else they can act on. Also if you have a pixel layer in a layer group and the pixel layer itself has a blend mode other than Normal, it needs the background first to calculate the image contributed by the layer group, and then uses the background again to blend the layer group with it using the blend mode of the layer group. You can experiment with this by having a layer group with Darker Color blend mode and put into it a pixel layer which itself has a Color mode for example. The resulting blend math can only be explained by the pixel layer inside the group also being blended onto the background before the layer group is blended again with the background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shojtsy Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, R C-R said: Is this an assumption you have made or from something you have seen in the documentation for the app or what? I ask because this does not seem to be the way it actually works, at least for some combinations of adjustments, filters, & blend modes. Groups of adjustment layers only (no live filters) work like this for me as well. Live filters in a group do not blend like this because they are buggy. Live filters outside group do blend like this. Do you have examples where blending works differently for a group of adjustment layers only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 @shojtsy I am working under the assumption that this is intended to work as @Chris_K explained in this post. IOW, there is by intent a difference between what a group without a pixel, object, fill, or other similar element will affect & one that does include one of those elements. Of course, this does not explain the odd rendering behavior or the disparity between what the canvas & nav panel shows or any of the rest of it, so clearly there is a bug somewhere that needs to be fixed, but the assumption that what is in a group layer should have no effect on how it is applied or blended with the layers below seems a dubious one. EDIT: I see that @Chris_K has responded to the post started by @Yevgeny Makarov in the Bugs on Mac forum, confirming that there does seem to be a bug, even taking into account the differences in how the content of groups affect blending. I don't know if it is worth posting anything similar in the Bugs on Windows forum, since this bug appears to be present in both the Mac & Windows apps.... Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenkm Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 In Photoshop everything works in an obvious way: if a group is in the Passthrough mode it is as if there is no group, the blending order is not changed if a group mode is Normal, first blended all layers in this group (nothing interacts with the layers outside of the group) then group is considered as a single layer in Normal mode if a group mode is Multiply (for example), also the layers in this group are not interacts with the layers outside of the group, group is considered as a single layer and blend down in Multiply mode That is, if the group mode is not Passthrough, for example adjustment layers in the group do not affect the layers below the group. In Affinity there is two difference: If a group contains both adjustments and pixel layers, these adjustments only affect layers in the group. Adjustments would like to ignore Passthrough mode, how would masking by layers. And if a group has only adjustments in it (so it shows the folder icon) it will affect the elements outside the group. 1 hour ago, shojtsy said: I think it is a simplified description that a layer group ignores background for its own calculation when it contains a pixel layer. When your layer group contains adjustment layers below the pixel layer, those adjustments can only be applied on the background, because there is nothing else they can act on. Also if you have a pixel layer in a layer group and the pixel layer itself has a blend mode other than Normal, it needs the background first to calculate the image contributed by the layer group, and then uses the background again to blend the layer group with it using the blend mode of the layer group. You can experiment with this by having a layer group with Darker Color blend mode and put into it a pixel layer which itself has a Color mode for example. The resulting blend math can only be explained by the pixel layer inside the group also being blended onto the background before the layer group is blended again with the background. If you have a group not in Passthrough, the layers inside the group are not interact with the layers outside of the group. If the bottom layer in the group has its own blending mode it just ignores. lepr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I suspect that it is less that PS actually works in a particularly obvious way & more that PS users are just more familiar with it working that way. But regardless of that, this would not be the first time that assuming everything in Affinity works the same as in PS causes confusion. For that matter, assuming that everything in one Adobe app works the same as in all the other Adobe apps often does the same thing. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I've just encountered something I don't understand, and thought someone here might be able to help educate me. I'm using this thread because I discovered it using the .afphoto file that shojtsy supplied in this post above. That file gives me the first image below I've included below. (Using Affinity Photo Beta 1.6.3.98 on Windows.) If I then switch to the color panel, and click on (not drag) its color picker, I get my second image below. The history shows that my 1 click seems to have resulted in two "set fill" actions. I don't know enough to understand what simply clicking on that color picker should have done; the only documentation says it should be dragged into the image. Nor do I know why a single click should have caused two actions to be recorded in the history. So I don't know whether this is just something I'm ignorant of, or something I should try to describe in a bugs topic so it can be looked at by the developers. Thanks for any insight you can provide (and apologies for hijacking the thread this way). Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenkm Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 It seems this is a bug. If you select a group (in the Layers panel) and set the color (in the Color panel or by Color Picker Tool) then all pixel layers in the group will be filled with this color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Thanks; that may explain what I'm seeing. In part I'm unsure as there's no documented behavior, that I have found, for what should happen if one clicks on that picker instead of dragging it. And if one drags that color picker into the image, nothing visible happens except sampling a color. The layers are not changed. Also, the "click" seems to be taking the color from the extreme upper right of the window, outside of the bounds of the actual document. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shojtsy Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 On 2018. 01. 12. at 10:21 PM, walt.farrell said: Thanks; that may explain what I'm seeing. In part I'm unsure as there's no documented behavior, that I have found, for what should happen if one clicks on that picker instead of dragging it. And if one drags that color picker into the image, nothing visible happens except sampling a color. The layers are not changed. Also, the "click" seems to be taking the color from the extreme upper right of the window, outside of the bounds of the actual document. My experience is that clicking on the picker sets the brush color to what the picker memory stores. Picker memory is what you have last picked, and is application-wide, so it is transferred between documents, and is not saved inside your afphoto files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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