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Affinity, we need clarification: are you or aren’t you working on a DAM?

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1 hour ago, MEB said:

The DAM app was already discussed in several threads on the forums, mentioned on twitter and in a few interviews. There's wasn't an "official" statement, press release or something along those lines because we are still far away from its release - there's really nothing to disclose/discuss at this point other than what was revealed. It's way to soon for that.

I can understand your perspective as member of the  Customer Support team and I get that these threads popping up again and again might get tiresome. That being said: It would be kind, not to underestimate the problem Adobe's change of licensing model has caused to a lot of people in the graphics industry.

Speaking of myself I have already spent / wasted countless hours, checking out possible alternatives for Adobe and – thus far – can say that nothing comes even close to what I'm used to, in terms of workflow integration and performance. From a lot of posts in these forums one can gather that others are in a similar situation and that they have also spent their time to check out a variety of options.

For me and for others, a decent RAW-workflow implementation was absolutely mandatory for sticking with Affintity. If you reveal in a years time that you only will create a modest Image Browser and will stick to One by One RAW Editing I had to conclude that I have again wasted a considerable amount of my time. As you guys announced Publisher there was a lot of interest too but – by far – not as many question marks. Anyone knows what a DTP program is. The definition of a DAM however, isn't clear at all.

We are all paying customers – it would be tremendously helpful to aid us plan – by telling us as much as you can. This doesn't have to be you, we would also accept @Mark Ingram :o) or whoever is the person in charge. If the forum is the wrong place, then write a Newsletter: But please spill the beans.

 

 

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 Affinity is a good alternative to photoshop. It is not, and has never claimed to be, an alternative to LR. I think you can use Bridge as a basic DAM and flick to Affinity as and when you need it. I just stick with LR. 

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I agree that the Luminar DAM functionality has been a tremendous disappointment, it's not the only alternative to Lightroom. I've been using On1 Photo Raw lately, that's improved to an impressive degree, and has pretty solid asset management functionality now. I haven't used Lightroom years though, so I can't compare.

 

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FWIW… whilst I can still get Aperture 3.6 run on my Macs in High Sierra and Mojave, I can wait.

Yes, it is a dead end application but there is nothing currently available that comes close to it in terms of ease of use and its Light Table is unmatched.

i can understand the limited resources available and that the completion of an Affinity ‘Creative Suite’ (like Adobe’s former Creative Suite Design Standard edition) will be a hugely compelling offering to small (design/creative) businesses and freelancers like myself – because Adobe does not offer a comparable package in their subscription model.

If Serif/Affinity do eventually get round to releasing a DAM/LR alternative and it comes remotely close to Aperture’s ease of use (esp if it also has a Light Table-esque feature) then it will be worth the wait IMO.

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3 hours ago, hifred said:

We are all paying customers – it would be tremendously helpful to aid us plan – by telling us as much as you can.

They have told us not to plan on an Affinity DAM anytime soon. Isn't that enough?


Affinity Photo 1.7.1, Affinity Designer 1.7.1, Affinity Publisher 1.7.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.143 & Affinity Designer 1.7.1.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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30 minutes ago, R C-R said:

They have told us not to plan on an Affinity DAM anytime soon. Isn't that enough?

I hadn't chimed in, if hadn't read the opposite stated by Serif staff, just recently: 'I'm standing next to the guy who's writing the DAM'. I can't remember where and by whom though.

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Just now, hifred said:

I hadn't chimed in, if hadn't read the opposite stated by Serif staff, just recently. I can't remember where and by whom 'I'm standing next to the guy who's writing the DAM'.

That isn't the opposite of 'not anytime soon.' There is nothing in that comment to indicate how long it will take the guy to write the app, when it will be finished, or what features it will include.


Affinity Photo 1.7.1, Affinity Designer 1.7.1, Affinity Publisher 1.7.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.143 & Affinity Designer 1.7.1.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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25 minutes ago, R C-R said:

That isn't the opposite of 'not anytime soon.' There is nothing in that comment to indicate how long it will take the guy to write the app, when it will be finished, or what features it will include.

I did not ask how long it will take.
I want to know more about their plans, so that I can plan.

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15 minutes ago, hifred said:

I did not ask how long it will take.
I want to know more about their plans, so that I can plan.

They have told us that their plans are not finalized, so knowing that, how could they tell you anything more that would somehow help you plan any better for the (presumed) eventual release of their DAM product, whenever that might happen & with whatever features make it into that first release?

Or if you prefer the tl;dr version: the Affinity DAM is currently vaporware. Plan accordingly.


Affinity Photo 1.7.1, Affinity Designer 1.7.1, Affinity Publisher 1.7.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.143 & Affinity Designer 1.7.1.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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9 minutes ago, hifred said:

I don't know if you have ever programmed. One needs to be able to describe the overall task quite in detail before even starting ...

One does not need to be a programmer to know that for example  Adobe did not plan (in detail or otherwise) for everything in the current version of Photoshop back when they began releasing the first version few versions. A quick glance here is more than enough for that.

Software feature design is always a moving target, if for no other reason than standards evolve over time, as do the hardware & operating systems that software runs on.


Affinity Photo 1.7.1, Affinity Designer 1.7.1, Affinity Publisher 1.7.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.143 & Affinity Designer 1.7.1.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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Hi guys,

I'm the original poster of this thread and I feel all your pain. When I started this thread, Serif said they were thinking about creating a DAM for a couple of years already (and yes @R C-R you are right, somebody indeed said once  "I'm sitting next to the guys that are writing the DAM... It's a thing"It was @MattP and it was in this thread in December 2017). Today, more than a year later, it feels like they're still about as far in the process as they were before. 

My humble advice to all of you is to stop worrying about it. I bet that nothing will be released anytime soon and even if so, it won't be the Lightroom killer we're all hoping for. Even if they actually are developing a DAM right now, it will take Serif another year or two to come out with something and even then, that product will probably be way behind of what Lightroom with its 20 years plus history is capable of today. 

The best example of this is Skylum with its Luminar software. They said in 2017 that they'll release a DAM in 2018 – pushing everybody's hopes up high. They barely kept their promise with a December 2018 release that was so underwhelming that many of us wished they wouldn't have created anything at all. It will take them another couple of years to catch up with Lightroom, if ever. 

It's my prediction that, even if Serif puts all their resources in the development of a DAM today, they won't be able to build anything great before 2021 or even later. I think it was a different story creating Affinity Designer and Affinity Publisher as both these apps have quite a lot of similar features to those of Affinity Photo. A DAM, on the other hand, is a whole different kind of beast and I started to realize that quite a while back. I still wish they would give us more clarity about the roadmap or if there's even one in existence, but I buried my hopes for an Affinity DAM and believe me or not, I'm a happier person today.

Lightroom is great and what Adobe is doing with the new Lightroom CC ecosystem is only pushing them further ahead of the competition.

My two cents.


Check out my site: https://five.photos

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And use what works for you in every moment. Couldn't get simpler.  :)


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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hifred  I do not really understand what you are suggesting. LR is a DAM that allows RAW processing using the same engine as PS. We all know that. Affinity is more akin to Photoshop. We all know that too. Serif suggested it was working on a DAM but says it has no plans to release anything in the near future. What is there to discuss?

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@BSA650 A lot of people have claimed that Afffinty looks very interesting, but that they could really do the switch until there's a DTP program. There's other users who won't be able to establish an attractive workflow, when their Graphics Suite doesn't support efficient handling and editing of RAW imagery. I actually belong to both of these groups.

Unfortunately the term DAM, in contrast to term DTP-program is extremely lose. It is used for simple image viewers and sorters like Irfan View and for highly sophisticated databases for millions of images. Programs with extensive RAW editing toolsets are called DAM in the same way as tools which cater for no editing at all.

All I can recall stated by Serif is that 'someone is working on a DAM', another statement was along the lines of 'yeah, we will likely add a little app to let our customers sort their assets'.That's all we know – and all I have stated that it would help, if they explained their plans some more.

Serifs starting conditions should not be too shabby. Sales seem to work out well, Serif has already had a DAM in their portfolio and they already have a functional set of RAW processing tools. You guys are correct that one should not have unrealistic expectatation. I don't think I have them – and I can get my work done elsewhere.

Nobody is asking for an ETA. But more info would help.


If only business / workflow considerations mattered I would have become CC customer, as soon as it became available. But I have a few princple left. One of them is, that I won't spend money on content creation programs which no longer give access to your intellectual property, as soon as one lets the contract run out.

Luckily I still own what I consider a very close second best option, that's Adobe's last perpetual suite. However it's more than half a decade old and it was silly not to check out possible successors. This successor could be the Affinity Suite, but it should not offer considerably less, than what I have now. I hope this so far is understandable.

Realistically there's not even a good route to temporarilly switch to CC, until one possibly considers the Affinity apps mature enough to finally leave Adobe. One in these years will have created a lot of content, which other apps can not deal with at all, or only at superficial level. Understandably, after dropping a CC-subsciption, older CS6 versions will have troubles reading CC-content – given that one at all can at all re-activate the old license.

Replacing a suite of programs with an array of standalone applications may turn out very powerful alternative for some users – but it usually requires quite a bit of dedication to make them work together properly.  As graphics is not my main job, I want things set up a bit more comfortable.


 

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1 hour ago, hifred said:

Nobody is asking for an ETA. But more info would help.

How? If the only info they have is that they do not know when the app will be released or what it will be capable of when it is, how would that help anybody plan for anything?


Affinity Photo 1.7.1, Affinity Designer 1.7.1, Affinity Publisher 1.7.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.143 & Affinity Designer 1.7.1.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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7 minutes ago, R C-R said:

How? If the only info they have...

In contrast to you I am convinced that one could tell us quite a bit more. Not customer support staff, but management.
You can't prove me wrong, neither can I do the opposite. But there's certainly nothing wrong with expressing a wish.
The only thing which doesn't make sense are quarrels of this nature and fellow customers trying to speak for a brand.

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40 minutes ago, hifred said:

But there's certainly nothing wrong with expressing a wish.

True. But if you don't get the reply you are wishing for, why keep belaboring the point? They have been quite clear that there is currently nothing more they are willing to share with users than what has already been said many times, & that when more info is available they will do so. Why would they not?


Affinity Photo 1.7.1, Affinity Designer 1.7.1, Affinity Publisher 1.7.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.143 & Affinity Designer 1.7.1.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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4 hours ago, hifred said:

but it usually requires quite a bit of dedication to make them work together properly.  As graphics is not my main job, I want things set up a bit more comfortable.

Well, that might explain some things... Graphics are my main job since '95, and I do put all my efforts to get the best (this includes comfortable) set of tools. I would disagree  here, as I believe is more of a psychological barrier, or one that our brain (the lizard brain) sets due to its resistance to change and adaptation. And... that is not good. Not even for a hobby. Besides, if only that would be true, that the main suite (in 2D, 3D, gis, VFX, whatever, is sth that can be applied to other fields) does have you covered in every possible use, and that is really more comfortable, and not simply just all conditioned by the habits you have, that would be super cool. But imo, is not really different or better (imo it'd be the opposite, but is hard to convince anyone about this...unless they've done it) than having polished the use and selection of tools to get you your best possible workflow. Yep, takes extra work, but IMO, works way, way better in the long run. For a hobby, too. Yup, a suite is usually thought for better integration and yadda yadda, but I have plenty of cases with Autodesk tools (by using other alternatives, for example) and even with Adobe's, the latest one very recently, where Affinity Publisher beta (!) even saved the day when an expert with InDesign I worked with was stuck ( and solved by the non-expert in publishing(me) with a beta alternative...lol ). It simply has a feature more, and for that, you needed a somewhat more convoluted workflow in Adobe, that this person (very experienced with InDesign) did not know how to perform (as it had not that feature/capability directly in the editing app) because, INDEED, out of her comfort area, was a bit lost.  This is why comfort zones are not always that good or desirable.

I could always UV Map in 3DS Max, at work, quite some years ago, it was the less resistance path, indeed, as the brain resistance has many faces... the bosses would not trust a solution which is not in the standard suite. IMO, that was very, very short sighted. Happily, I proved them wrong, every single time with this and other apps.(trust me, I'd have been fired, if not !  Those weren't places to play games, if you forgive the pun (er, were game developer studios... and other software companies, mostly)), which was often not tools fully replacing the entire suite, sometimes not even an entire app, but a work task... But doing specific tasks much, much better, and easier. By those years, Ultimate Unwrap was outstandingly better than the UVW unwrap window in Max for unwrapping. Which was a so crucial task to do in game production. Examples like that, there are in the hundreds. Yes, it takes a bit of research, but often is work half done, as is reported by expert users, so you can start from there. (ie, here a lot of people give advice about really good DAM alternatives). In the actual forum post (or blog article, video review, etc), each time, you can easily see if the person is an advanced user, or someone more casual who installed it for a first time and just liked the GUI colors.

They will follow their plans, but also do things as possible. IMO, developing tools is like mentioned by someone, something quite organic : You find obstacles and surprises on the way, judging my years working besides programmers doing exactly this kind of thing. Is not exactly easy (or possible) to establish a fixed date, or know if the business is going to allow to allocate enough time for some particular line, specially as events, investment, competition, the entire market and ecosystem changes/evolves.

No one is speaking for a brand. At least my posts are about common sense and using to the best possible capabilities anything (indeed, I am sure they don't love that I so often mention and even link alternatives...Other vendors do literally forgive this practice in their forums...)  you have in hand (not just Serif's). But not sure if the opposite isn't the case as well. Sometimes a few posts look like speaking against a brand. If they have no time and resources to pull all what they wished, in an initial moment, then is like beating a dead horse. Very specially in this case, as a DAM is sth they have stated they would like to have ! Is not like when people ask for an animation program. They there clearly state they have no future plans on doing anything like that. So, my take is... if they have not finished it, is because they are indeed polishing the core apps, the main functionality : The tools that allow creation, which are not fully complete yet. Plus...I do believe they ARE (or have been, quite) working on a DAM. I believe it could be the case that if it is very pre-alpha work, posting it would bring just a ton of overhead, complaining threads of people not understanding what is an alpha or pre-alpha, and in the end, just adding a lot of distraction work over the pile. Or, just mentioning some advances, would be taken as written-in-stone promises, lol. Also, I don't think we have a right to know how they work internally, or when do they stop to have coffee, pickup the kids from school, etc. I mean, that's an exaggeration, of course, but what I mean is, they produce software, they sell you the released one, not the beta. A lot of brands wont give you so any beta (which here you get once being a customer of that app). That's a gift, imo. I don't defend a brand per se. I will always defend those things that a brand does BETTER than the competition, though, that's for sure.

There's a point where you can't keep expecting the vendor will solve everything for you. Any particular vendor. Not even Adobe !. I saw this while working at very crazy, fast, over pressured environments, often in software development companies and media agencies. You need to solve the issue, not... "WAIT". Hobbyists would be happy to discover that is the best path for them, too.  So, you do whatever is needed. You find the tool, and put to good use. (and if my other option was only to stick to CS6, heck, yeah, I'd be really busy doing that already...sooner or later the app can get even not possible to run in an OS, as is a total dead end, no updates) I mean, this seems hard (it is), but in the long run, is a so, so much better habit to have, than wait sth to be as what your preference is (IMO, it indeed could NEVER be the case. So one must take a more active attitude, solve the problem vs waiting it to be solved. ). I dunno, am too much of a person of action, more than for waiting things to eventually happen. Besides, IMO, is a more satisfying take....


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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Hi @SrPx I feel kind of bad that you spent time to write all this down. Honestly, I have a hard time sift through your (usually pretty long) posts and often give up soon. Where do you pick up what has been discussed, what's random scattered opinion /senior artist advice and chit chat? All hard to identify. Your posts seem to me like a stream of conciousness, as if you spoke freely into your phone and pressed the Send button. At any rate I didn't address you with my posts :o)

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Oki, completely fine. It was mostly advice... Is one of the reasons (this kind of reaction) why I post quite less, lately....  ;)

Cheers,


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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...that said, I completely realize now that was a too long text. And... absolutely useless, given its effect. Shall I keep it to one-line posts (or none at all :D )


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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