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@SrPx
apparently my sentences where confusing, hopefully now its clearer;

Some features like the tracing feature are not available in Affinity Designer while other programs on Linux have them.
For a potential Affinity Publisher on Linux, programs like Scribus and Viva Designer are to be considered as competition.


For all the programs, Serif would have to add features which are not provided by the competition to be interesting enough for customers.

 

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Linux is more popular on the desktop than macOS now - https://netmarketshare.com/ -> Desktop Trend (6.91%). NetMarketShare is a company which is sponsored by Microsoft, so I believe that their data

Recently I was responsible for getting a company to switch over to the Affinity products. (Serif, you're welcome. ) I wanted to share some insights behind one company's process of deciding what design

Sorry, but we currently have no plans to release on Linux

14 hours ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

As a 3d artist I probably couldn't care less about the presence of Affinity Photo on the Linux platform (or even on Windows and Mac) when I have access to Substance Painter and Designer for my texture work. I'd be heavily invested in those tools, and for the odd simple image editing I'd probably just get something free like Krita or even Gimp.

It depends on the field. VFX surely no probs, but in games, where I worked at quite a while, you are required since the first interview to fully master Zbrush AND Photoshop, and pipelines/workflows around the two, like retopology, normal maps generation, etc. You cannot tell 'em "Hey, but I handle Gimp and Blender can do some of what Zbrush does" (not Blender's fault. ZB is a specialized tool, like Mudbox. Max, Maya and Blender are general 3D packages.)...I mean, you can, but then you'd better be some big shot highly known in CG Society as a freaking master, or you wont get that job.

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and whether you like it or not, Krita surpasses both Photoshop and Affinity Photo in regards to digital painting

Not so absolutely sure about that. PS still has an edge on core brush performance & color picker handling and general flexibility over the other two. Indeed. I'd admit though that Clip Studio Paint is the king of that group (I paint with it in most of my projects), no challenge. For what is the core painting functionality, which is what is mostly needed, more even than a cool brushes library (some people would be surprised in knowing that a lot of us just work building up and painting with basic brushes) or faking charcoal, I can tell you.

AD, AP and APub.  Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1650 4GB, 500GB m.2 SSD, 1TB HDD 7200rpm. Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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For all the programs, Serif would have to add features which are not provided by the competition to be interesting enough for customers.

Yes, I understood that. But we should all consider that as well, there are other features lacking in the linux apps that are in Affinity line. And quite a number of them. Even more, for pro work, it is also important that a UI is fast and professional. Affinity very specially excels in that, apart from counting with a very large set of features, hard to beat by its own by the existing alternatives in Linux.

Indeed, if Linux users wouldn't find AD more interesting in terms of features than their existing apps in Linux, they wouldn't be here pushing for a Linux port, as has been mentioned recently.

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Mac is a completely different ball game, despite the smaller user base: most professional designers and print involved people work on Macs, and the user base for a product like Affinity is just... there. It exists.

^^ This. Very much.

BTW, I was testing Gravit Designer the other day.... is it not... too simplistic to compare to AD in any possible way ? I mean, even Inkscape seems more featured....Don't quote me on this, tho, as it was just some testing impression.

Edit: BTW, Viva Designer has been mentioned... am seeing now it's almost 400 bucks for commercial use...Would we really not consider that an important matter to also factor in, specially once ported AD to Linux and the habit of paying for software in that OS ? Apub's price is probably going to be a bit above 50 euros...

AD, AP and APub.  Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1650 4GB, 500GB m.2 SSD, 1TB HDD 7200rpm. Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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1 hour ago, NNois said:

the open source community is invaluable, every developer can't deny that and should support that.

Why? Are all open source software users 'charity cases' who are unwilling to pay a fair price? Serif products are certainly not overpriced, unlike some we could mention.

People should get paid for their efforts.

If not, who is going to feed all those cats ? 

sadcat.png.a04281d9349652b5ce77a43feec9e255.png

Windows PCs. Photo and Designer, latest non-beta versions.

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2 hours ago, SrPx said:

(Goodbye Fireworks, XSI, Freehand, Mirai, Deep Paint 3D... we really miss you...)

Haha, I worked personally 12 hour a day with XSI starting from the 3.5 version to the end (more than 10 years). Before that with Lightwave starting from 1994 on Amiga !

I can assure you every decision in development they made by "Passion" has been heard deeply and forever by the users and have changed the 3d background forever.
Every ex XSI users are all disgusted exactly by 
compagny who care only about money/profits/sales (AD).

You are roughly telling that the good model and example for a compagny (speaking about 3d apps) is for example MAYA or 3DS max, (speaking about 2D) ADOBE ? are you mad ? these are the perfect example of, by the years, dictated by money, are now very bad apps, everywhere users are complaining and they are just... stucked !

That's not a path Serif follow I hope

For the history, (nothing has to do with Serif) :

What's the difference between XSI and MAYA ? well XSI is a total rewrite of the app they made from SOFTIMAGE around 2000's. They loose 3y of development, 3y of... MAYA market penetration. BUT, they made the best 3d app of the world

Speaking of Lightwave they are now dead (likelly dead) because they never made their rewrite wanted by the core devellopers ( Brad Peebler Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson )

So, First case, by passion a software die but left happy users, the second the software die but left angry users.

 

Like you I'm an :

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older (not necessarily old, but that have been around working with graphic software many, many years) around here, and quite some time as pros in the Win/Mac/Linux platform

I'll remember only the good ones

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2 hours ago, toltec said:

People should get paid for their efforts.

If not, who is going to feed all those cats ? 

I never said Open Sourcing but supporting, which means for example simply supporting people who made to choice to be on an open platform.

By the way Cats are well know to be very bad for our environment we souldn't support that ;-)

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2 hours ago, NNois said:

You are roughly telling that the good model and example for a compagny (speaking about 3d apps) is for example MAYA or 3DS max, (speaking about 2D) ADOBE ? are you mad ? these are the perfect example of, by the years, dictated by money, are now very bad apps, everywhere users are complaining and they are just... stucked !

Yeah, all what you want. But they (Max and maya) are the industry (in games they were even in those times) leaders. You apply to any job, and they require you to know one of those, mostly. Plus, no one is saying here that Serif should mimic any specific company path (they clearly have a very distinctive personality). But has its right to port to the platforms of its liking, and definitely, if anything, I've seen till now friendly pricing, users supporting attitude (yep, we can compare...) , extreme patience in the forums, no subscriptions (Autodesk Max's is right now crazy), and flexibility. I don't think they are doing in any way like Autodesk or Adobe. And BTW, I purchased XSI Foundation 4.0 just to see it go the way of the Dodo a bit later. And to my knowledge is that he company got in a weak financial status, and so, AD could make a not too good offer and acquire it easily. Mirai's company went the way of the dodo, and that was such a great package, way ahead of the times (I'm a maxer as that what has been requested around here since... always, but since many years in my personal work, and lately even at companies, I'm a Wings (and Blender) user, which reminds quite a bit to Mirai in the modeling department) , and certainly, a more realistic/business view of things, I would have preferred that for that great package (Mirai) to stay alive. Not to mention the bucks I did put to purchase Deep Paint 3D to see it ending pretty soon. A business take at things is too important. If I'd see Serif doing terrible things, I'd fear the monopolistic threats, but I see zero signs of that. And this is the company giving away for eons old versions in the magazines, totally functional, and for every usage. Hard to get friendlier...

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By the way Cats are well know to be very bad for our environment we souldn't support that ;-)

Making friends around... (that's for feral cats, tho, not domestic in-door ones. Arguable (there's no agreement about those studies), in any case. In terms of meat consuming, we could eat less of that, too, indeed, we can, but they are predators by nature (much of their food is made with the leftovers we wouldn't eat, tho).... WE are really bad for the environment, LOL, much worse than they will EVER be..Then...we should not "support humans", haha... And for cats overpopulation... bring coyotes, lol. Those kill cats as a sport. Wild cats kill a lot of birds, yep, this is bad... just don't let ur cat roam around....and as for the rats... that's a plague itself.... ). That said, I never specially liked cats for pets... I prefer dogs...

AD, AP and APub.  Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1650 4GB, 500GB m.2 SSD, 1TB HDD 7200rpm. Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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8 hours ago, SrPx said:

Not so absolutely sure about that. PS still has an edge on core brush performance & color picker handling and general flexibility over the other two. Indeed. I'd admit though that Clip Studio Paint is the king of that group (I paint with it in most of my projects), no challenge. For what is the core painting functionality, which is what is mostly needed, more even than a cool brushes library (some people would be surprised in knowing that a lot of us just work building up and painting with basic brushes) or faking charcoal, I can tell you.

Krita and ClipStudio are the two I use for painting and drawing. I have a nice large Wacom Pro, and I always wrap a sheet of high quality drawing paper around it, because I dislike the Wacom's drawing surface. And it gives me that traditional paper texture feel while drawing :). Can't do that with a Cintiq ;-)

You know, I used Photoshop in the past for drawing, and I gave Photoshop CC (latest version with the improved drawing tools and stroke stabilizer) a whirl today. Simply put, I still don't like it (understatement if ever there was one).

I typically work on a minimum of a A4@600ppi canvas (4961 by 7016 pixels). For simple sketching and quick inking both Krita and ClipStudio feel much more direct and responsive. I tend to turn off any stroke stabilizers while drawing and painting (sometimes I use it for inking jobs). The much-touted new stroke stabilizer in Photoshop left me distinctly unimpressed. It lags, and compared to ClipStudio and Krita it's pretty terrible. It just feels wrong how the PS devs implemented it. But Photoshop always left me wanting in terms of drawing feel. It is just lacking after you've tried some of the alternatives out there.

Performance-wise I compared the new version of PS with Krita. I used a simple 500px inking brush, and made quick strokes. Photoshop struggles for me. It's laggy, and can't keep up. A trick used in PS is to increase the spacing of dabs, but this results in less than optimal results. But once I started using more advanced brushes at 200px brush sizes, even relatively small sized brushes would lag and at some point updating the stroke became a slide show.

Krita is fully multi-threaded while drawing nowadays, but with more advanced brushes the instant preview mode allows for real-time feedback while working. This is something that works really well for me. Compared, Photoshop cannot keep up. At all.

Anyway, these type of comparisons are quite academic. I almost never use such large brushes for regular work. I did notice that ClipStudio works like a charm on low-powered hardware, though, where both Photoshop and Krita become almost unusable. Not sure how the CS devs accomplish that, but on a very slow Windows Wacom slate (Asus EPE-121) of mine it is a joy to work with CS.

For me the GUI in Krita is by far the best one, though. I don't have to leave the tablet and touch the keyboard, can work in full screen mode, and that right-mouse click HUD just works. Krita is very artist workflow friendly. Working with the on-screen HUD is brilliant. 85% of the time that HUD is more than enough. The keyboard gets in the way in most other apps. It's so easy to assign favorite brushes, and group things. Your last used colours are displayed, and, and ,and.  Just a really nice workflow in Krita for the artist to focus on painting and drawing, rather than GUI panels.

Photoshop is DREADFUL in regards to GUI for drawing. Really, it's TERRIBLE compared. At least there's a right-mouse click mini hud, but it pales in comparison, and the brush management, while it received a number of improvements in the latest vesion, still cumbersome.

ClipStudio - well, CS has that "Japanese artist" type of interface. Hard to put a finger on it - I feel the same about OpenToonz, and apps like Mirai. It's not bad, but CS's GUI is too panel oriented. No HUD, which it would benefit from. I love the drawing feel in CS, but the GUI leaves a lot to be desired. I got Frenden's brush presets, which are nice. But the flow in Krita is much preferable over the one in CS (for me, at least). CS's GUI gets in the way at times.

Yeah, and Affinity Photo: no, the (work)flow is really too much alike to Photoshop or other image editors without a focus on digital drawing and painting. Just doesn't work for me. Nothing wrong with that, of course: it is not Affinity's primary objective. The Krita devs always state clearly that they've decided a long time ago to focus on drawing and painting workflow, and not trying to be an super-duper image editor as well. And true enough, I would never use Krita for compositing jobs.

So, it would be nice to have more of Krita's GUI in CS. And some of CS's performance on lower tech in Krita. Photoshop for drawing and painting? Blurghhh. Don't see the point (brush).

PS Have you tried Painstorm Studio yet? It does some interesting things, and I am evaluating it right now. The semi-transparent panels work well - really well. And all panels are seamlessly scalable. Also some extraordinary nice real-world looking brushes. The price is ridiculously low. Funny tool: there's a tool to paint the interface - no, really! First impressions hold up well so far.

http://www.paintstormstudio.com/index.html

 

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4 minutes ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

Krita and ClipStudio are the two I use for painting and drawing. I have a nice large Wacom Pro, and I always wrap a sheet of high quality drawing paper around it, because I dislike the Wacom's drawing surface. And it gives me that traditional paper texture feel while drawing :). Can't do that with a Cintiq ;-)

Did you tried that rig on ubtunu/krita ?

Last day I tried my wacom on Ubuntu to paint with Krita and I feel something wired (linux is for me maintly a 3d rig)

My wacom seemed to react like a real life pen, capturing every little movements and I liked that, I never feeled this behavior with the wacom drivers on WIN/MAC.

I realised the WIN/MAC drivers made by wacom has a small lattency which is impossible to remove ! I believe in this delay they have an algorythm to smooth out our movement but I think now this is bad ;-), very nice example of an uneeded overhead !

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@NNois Thanks for the tip - I will try that this weekend. Yes, I did notice all drawing apps have a slight mini-lag, and you've piqued my curiosity now.

*edit* So I've discovered something interesting. ClipStudio always felt a bit better than Krita while drawing, and it's exactly what you spotted: in Krita on Windows (and Photoshop) the brush has a mini-lag. This doesn't happen in either ClipStudio or Paintstorm.

 

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CSP is IMO superior to anything else for anything related to drawing and painting... PS CC 2018 can be configured for smooth painting and inking, perfectly, I tested it very deeply (an entire morning configuring OS files, the prefs, fine tuning, etc)  with a fake but real (in specs, time and depth..during some time was considering going to the cloud) project, as I wanted to test it really fully. Just seeing it laggy at first open and call it a day wouldn't be enough for my purpose. I did know first usage would be so. You need a ton of OS optimizing, getting certain processes under control and apply some crazy optimizing tricks (some of them found in google, lol, other pros had faced it) in preferences, and disabling the GPU mode -with cards like my arcane one- but if a first gen 2009 i7 can end up painting AND inking smoothly... the capability is there. IMO, they've totally turned to the PROs. And all mates I have in studios -and when I was there, too- rarely complain about any of this.... Is thought for modern workstations. Is a pro package. If well configured, you get the taste of it as if you were using a much higher rmachine, and then u see its virtues. Am not gonna explain it here, it'd be extremely long and off topic. And there would be neither any interest,lol, as people is here 'cause dislikes Adobe subscription model, anyways...  I recon am a freak, a too curious geek. And I was considering falling back to the cloud....So I had to really test that. Conclusion was VERY satisfactory : PS had done it finally, good line smoothing and good overall application for painting and any other uses. But also realized I had become really productive with CSP, and for image editing projects, while not many this year, it's all AP's field (and or, other alternatives. Is not PS alone, anymore. For a job, PS is, and will be, for long. No issues with that, either)

With all the issues, is still more usable for illustration (PS) than Krita. Besides that there's more than plain painting for varied illustration gigs (ie, a proper text tool, better file preparation and color management, etc, etc, etc) it simply, once configured, works more reliably, and has not certain bugs-show stoppers (in both platforms, so the "in linux runs smoother " doesn't cut it).  Indeed, I don't find Krita laggy in any way at all, neither with large brushes IN WINDOWS. But there are some workflow important issues. For this and other reasons I've been moving more and more to CSP the majority of my work. But will be needing a ton more a image editor (which Krita isn't, and CSP, while having more features of that kind, isn't PS , either), as one does all sort of projects, so, AP is totally the most important app, anyways...Indeed, if the amplifier (shown when painting) gets removed in the color picker (as an option,not even default) and some polishing performance in there, and in the brush, I could easily do a 50% of my illustrations in AP, or probably more. CSP anyway is just too good, is gonna be there always, unless it becomes subscription based for desktop too... tho it does not seem likely.  (a large portion of its users are teenagers, and professional comic artists, not willing in anyway to get into subscription model... it'd be the way of the Dodo for them)

AD, AP and APub.  Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1650 4GB, 500GB m.2 SSD, 1TB HDD 7200rpm. Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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@SrPx Photoshop CC 2018 runs very smoothly on my (decade old i7) machine without issues, and fast (probably thanks to the GTX1080). As I said, drawing and painting works smooth, excepting in edge cases, where Krita's instant preview mode takes the crown. But really, no issues whatsoever in both applications in terms of painting and drawing/inking. (p.s. I have a full Adobe CC sub)

I do think the new version of PS finally answered calls from digital painters for long-standing issues to be resolved, such as the lack of mirror painting, stroke stabilizer, other painting improvements. The trouble I have with PS is more of a workflow oriented one: in my opinion the GUI works against you - in particular for digital painting/drawing. It's a cumbersome tool. And I've used Photoshop professionally since version 3 in nineties. Like you I prefer both CS and Krita, and I tend to prefer Krita over CS because of the GUI. It's small things for me in Photoshop. Too many to get into right now, but to mention but a few: layer mask and selection limitations, no HUD, no middle mouse button to pan the canvas quickly, the silly smart objects workflow (for non-destructive scaling and live effects) which cannot update in realtime when edited, a 16pbc mode that is really a 15bpc mode, and a legion of other workflow issues, many of which originate from legacy decisions in the past.

Is PS the best "all-in-one" image editor? Arguably yes. I've set up my pipeline of tools for 2d and 3d work which outpace Photoshop for everything I need to do, though. So even though I have access to PS, I was just tired too deal with all the legacy workflow issues, limitation, and bugs in PS that I decided five years ago to move away from Photoshop and switch to other (more specialist) tools. 

InDesign is still my to-go tool for layout jobs, though. Publisher needs to be VERY good to lure me away from InDesign.

Anyway, I am digressing. I think we agree on most points here. I wish ClipStudio's GUI would be less reliant on the traditional panels. Paintstorm (while gimmicky in places) actually has a lot of in favour for it in regards to how to deal with those panels. In short, I love that HUD in Krita.

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On 6/14/2018 at 11:52 AM, toltec said:

Why? Are all open source software users 'charity cases' who are unwilling to pay a fair price? Serif products are certainly not overpriced, unlike some we could mention.

People should get paid for their efforts.

If not, who is going to feed all those cats ? 

sadcat.png.a04281d9349652b5ce77a43feec9e255.png

Because of the absence of a quality vector software in Linux i do think people would pay for it, you can't predict those things without trying.

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1 hour ago, alexmigf said:

you can't predict those things without trying.

Yes you can - it's called "volumetric forecasting" and there are shed loads of companies who do nothing but forecast  what will happen to a new product.  I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that Serif have already done this.

AP user, running Win10

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28 minutes ago, IanSG said:

Yes you can - it's called "volumetric forecasting" and there are shed loads of companies who do nothing but forecast  what will happen to a new product.  I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that Serif have already done this.

Maybe... and even if it's true, it's hard to know if people are willing to pay for something that don't exist in Linux.

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1 minute ago, alexmigf said:

Maybe... and even if it's true, it's hard to know if people are willing to pay for something that don't exist in Linux.

The question is if they would pay for it in sufficient numbers to justify the development, marketing, & support costs to the company. Even without sophisticated market forecasting analysis, that no other company is rushing to do that suggests they would not.

Affinity Photo 1.9.3, Affinity Designer 1.9.3, Affinity Publisher 1.9.3;  2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.92.236 & Affinity Designer 1.9.2 (showing 1.9.9) for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 14.4 (18D52)

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33 minutes ago, toltec said:

 

OI, WATCH WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH THAT THING.

stab.png.e63c0327b54863b86d535106bef72486.png

When Affinity Designer was only available for MAC i presume you're on the right front crying to be available for Windows.

And maybe you're posting on a forum running on Linux, don't be evil ;)

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1 minute ago, R C-R said:

The question is if they would pay for it in sufficient numbers to justify the development, marketing, & support costs to the company. Even without sophisticated market forecasting analysis, that no other company is rushing to do that suggests they would not.

I agree, i'm just giving my opinion.

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7 minutes ago, alexmigf said:

When Affinity Designer was only available for MAC i presume you're on the right front crying to be available for Windows.

No, I used Photoshop or Xara studio. I just really like Photo so was very glad when it appeared.

I even have a Linux machine. It stops the door closing xD

Windows PCs. Photo and Designer, latest non-beta versions.

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Drawing and painting  capabilities in an application, if you do it professionally, is not only about raw performance. Plus, in my book, a software that does everything I need (in painting, as these are painting tools, not PS competitors (like AP is)) with very low hardware requirements (CSP is the total king in my tests), depending only in CPU, so, it does not stop people with low/mid end cards to work perfectly, even with no discrete cards, but integrated in cpu ones.. that's a win-win. Also, as I was saying, I was not mentioning speed as in brute performance. CSP does perform already as smooth as I need it, perfect wacom pen response and feel for inking, penciling and painting. I meant superior also in workflow and drawing feel, plus other approaches. And this, already in a very crappy and arcane machine. With "superior"  I meant a bunch of things, not just if it is using the latest hit in graphic card technology and libraries. 

I'm curious by nature, so I might give it a try....

BTW,  that Black app doesn't count on any Linux port. And if you read their faq, they have planned a Mac port, but state that they have no plans for a Linux version.... (you could stick to their ..."yet" ...in that sentence...not sure if I would... )

Edit: Seems to be in quite a beta stage, very basic functionality not present.... and it seems there's not much activity over  there... For GPU based painting, I might prefer Paintstorm or Rebelle...

AD, AP and APub.  Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1650 4GB, 500GB m.2 SSD, 1TB HDD 7200rpm. Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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17 hours ago, alexmigf said:

When Affinity Designer was only available for MAC i presume you're on the right front crying to be available for Windows.

And maybe you're posting on a forum running on Linux, don't be evil ;)

Maybe I missed something, but wasn't it always planned for the entire Affinity suite to run on OSX & Windows?

AP user, running Win10

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23 minutes ago, IanSG said:

Maybe I missed something, but wasn't it always planned for the entire Affinity suite to run on OSX & Windows?

No, you did not miss that ... but I guess some did. :72_imp:

Affinity Photo 1.9.3, Affinity Designer 1.9.3, Affinity Publisher 1.9.3;  2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.92.236 & Affinity Designer 1.9.2 (showing 1.9.9) for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 14.4 (18D52)

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