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9 minutes ago, myclay said:

indeed, Serif did come the closest. Due to Serifs so far deserved success,  Adobe is finally going to cater Photoshop even to IPad owners.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/adobe-is-said-to-plan-photoshop-for-ipad-in-app-strategy-shift
this quote from the article above is interesting and makes me think that Serif is going to tab new markets.

 

I bet they won't try to bring out an illustrator app though. Hopefully Serif can get out with Photo, Designer and Publisher.

Who need Adobe ? ;)

Maybe Adobe should bring out a Linux version. Nobody else will xD


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16 minutes ago, toltec said:

I'm not convinced, it's not just a few bits of software. That is OK for a few clever dick types.

THERE IS NO SUPPORT ! at least in the UK.

Normal, non-geek people, can't just go into a store and buy a Linux machine.

Normal non-geek people can't get a leasing contract on a few dozen machines.

Normal, non-geek people can't get on site support contracts.

Normal, non-geek, people can't get local engineer back-up when it all goes wrong.

Normal, non-geek people can't get training on the software, like MS Office software.

Normal non-geek people can't buy loads of 'teaching' books from e bay. Maybe a few ?

So, if normal non-geek people people can't get it, or use it, who is left?

Oh yes, geeks !

Sadly you’re speaking about old dumb guys... I hardly know any guy enough lasy to buy support or book!

- My children uses Linux without any support or book, it’s all in the internet.

- the kids here embrace thoses open tech and it’s very good. Therés a big movement in France to « Disrupt » all that F**king commercial and corporate softwares. For the sake of our future (I’m sure you understand that argument)

- Some parts of my neighbors surprisingly use Linux despite they are not tech people. The argument is the freedom, the security. It’s very important here and many fears about the Big US Corporation, we don’t use Google but Ecosia or likes.

 

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3 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

 

 

Search your feelings, Toltec. You will know it to be true.

Hell yes, I've been a computer geek for over 30 years. The first computer I worked on was loaded by paper tape. :o

I was an early Linux user and have used, Linux, Mac and windows professionally. Well, of all of them I failed with Linux as it wasn't up to the job.

The trouble is, I know how far short Linux falls of being a viable platform for the 'masses' or for most professionals.

Look at all the people who come on here spouting about how wonderful Linux is. Not one of them, AFAIK actually uses Linux professionally. Except maybe one engineer? They are all amateurs who think they know the needs of professionals.

Linux is like buying a hydrogen car. It has the range of petrol cars, is as green as electric but it will spend it's life parked on the driveway because there is no proper network of filling stations. So you will spend your time cleaning it, not driving it.


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10 minutes ago, toltec said:

Maybe Adobe should bring out a Linux version. Nobody else will xD

https://github.com/corbindavenport/creative-cloud-linux
Photoshop CC can apparently run on Linux via wine + the above github data. ;)

68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f

 


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10 minutes ago, NNois said:

Sadly you’re speaking about old dumb guys...

 

No, I'm talking about professionals. People who use computers in their jobs, from the secretary, the lawyer to the doctor.

And of the amateur Linux users you mention where did they buy their Linux computers from?

Where do you go to buy a Linux computer from?


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2 hours ago, mzzfdrc said:

Why do you think open source is currently dominating web development or server software?

It was open source from day 1, and it works well. So what - I'm challenging the blanket statement that "open source is even better".  Just because OSS works well in one sector doesn't mean it'll work across the board.

3 hours ago, mzzfdrc said:

But yeah, keep ignoring that OSS pushes innovation forward.

No, it's an enabler, not a driver.  


AP user, running Win10

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23 minutes ago, toltec said:

Look at all the people who come on here spouting about how wonderful Linux is. Not one of them, AFAIK actually uses Linux professionally. Except maybe one engineer? They are all amateurs who think they know the needs of professionals

And what do you do, fellow professional troll?

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1 hour ago, toltec said:

The trouble is, take away internet stuff and Linux is virtually nothing.

Business runs on Windows or Macs. Graphics, printing, office, doctors, etc etc etc.

So apart from geeks playing around in their bedrooms, the real world runs on real word computers. 

And how does free stuff push innovation forward?

Why are you here?

Because your OS is holding back innovation and is behind the world when it comes to proper innovative software maybe ?

Because people are talking with their head up their bottom parts, and I was just looking for some info but signed up for the flame war.

Maybe in the last 30 years you've been wasting your time on warez instead.

 

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I'

11 minutes ago, mzzfdrc said:

And what do you do, fellow professional troll?

I'm' retired now (last year) but I spent 30 years in the print trade.

Scanning (drum scanners and flatbed scanners) retouching and manipulating photographs, creating documents and artwork. Plus running a film imagesetter and high volume colour laser printers. Using mainly Macintosh and Windows computers.

I also spent a fair bit of that time training others how to use the above.

Basically, 30 years using computers professionally, full time to earn money.

Your turn :)


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18 minutes ago, toltec said:

The trouble is, I know how far short Linux falls of being a viable platform for the 'masses' or for most professionals.

Linux will never be a basic, no frills, immediately intuitive end user OS. Even though it's been streamlined considerably over the last few years, it still requires a goodly bit of know-how to work with it. It gives you nigh endless amounts of ways to customize things to your specific preferences, and can be incredibly slick when you bend it to your will and tastes, but that openness does come with a few caveats that will forever keep it from being what your grandma would want to use.

...that's what iOS is for. Which Serif currently covers better than anyone.

See, I think of Linux as a potential option. I don't necessarily NEED it. I have a perfectly functional Windows 10 machine with Photo, Designer, and the Publisher beta installed on that runs just fine. But it's something I'd LIKE to have. I've used Linux enough to see its upsides as well as its downs, and with all things considered, the only reason why I'm not over there on a more permanent basis is because it lacks a vector and photo program I like. Yeah, there's Inkscape and GIMP, but the former is a little too simple and clunky, and the latter makes me want to punch someone every time I've tried it. I want a good suite of image editors (and Publisher too, since I'm thinking of replacing Word with it now that I've got to see what it can do). I've got access to pretty much everything else I need over there. Those image editors are all I lack. If I had them, I'd make the jump, and be perfectly happy with the decision.

I'm probably not the only person who thinks this way. I'm sure there are a fair number of web designers that'd be interested in doing the same, since Linux comes with a number of IDEs and code editors integrated into the OS directly. Though I can't tell you exactly how big this linux-considering demographic is, it might be big enough for Serif to consider leveraging at some point in the not too distant future.

...maybe. Possibly. Can't say this for a fact, but it'd be interesting to see how it'd go were they to try.

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14 minutes ago, toltec said:

I'

I'm' retired now (last year) but I spent 30 years in the print trade.

Scanning (drum scanners and flatbed scanners) retouching and manipulating photographs, creating documents and artwork. Plus running a film imagesetter and high volume colour laser printers. Using mainly Macintosh and Windows computers.

I also spent a fair bit of that time training others how to use the above.

Your turn :)

Graphic design for print - though with third parties doing the printing luckily - and studying/doing it in university, and also photography, a bit of movie making, 3d modelling on 3DS Max and Blender (both for major courses in university), and also programming in PHP at first and now all in on JavaScript but also picking up Mono and C#. Oh, meanwhile I got out of university (discussing a thesis on UX design for families and public services) and into devops, been doing CI and CD for a couple years now with both Jenkins and Gitlab. Haven't had the pleasure of working in a print shop, we usually just send them files in their preferred color profile and wait for the prints to be delivered.

I did though study the usual officeware in school. Nothing that Google Docs or later the iPad version of Office couldn't handle. If only touch interfaces weren't a pain.

Oh, and I've been using Windows 98/2000/XP/Vista/7 until 2007, then a couple years on Ubuntu/Debian and Arch, then OS X until 2013, then Windows until last year, couple months of Hackintosh, and recently I just got tired of being shat on by Microsoft as a professional developer.

 

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3 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

Those image editors are all I lack. If I had them, I'd make the jump, and be perfectly happy with the decision.

I have no problems with Linux for some simple things (browsing and music libraries) and have set up machines for other, like my daughter and a mate. It was the best choice for their simple needs and they have the benefit of being able to ask a geek (me) to help if it all goes wrong.

But I know how lacking Linux is for 99% of professionals and home users. So I would never recommend it for them.

It would be  no use for anyone in the graphics trade though. It's not just a good photo editor like, Affinity Photo. I used lot's of plug-ins, specialised printer driver stuff like imposition software and silkscreen separation software, and briefly, green-screen software for photography. Even Affinity would fall a bit short due to lack of proper channels support and a few other things. 

 


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11 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

Here in the States, Dell sells a number of them. There's also a few other manufacturers that cater specifically to Linux crowds.

Oh right, interesting, things have moved on a bit then. I'm not sure if that happens in the UK. I don't know anybody at all who uses Linux here, only my daughter and mate. And neither had heard of it before I recommended it. As I said before, despite being able to, in ten years not once was I asked to print or output a Linux created document. Always Macintosh files from Designers or Windows files from business.

Until people like PC World (UK store chain) sells them and supports them, home users won't buy them. Sadly :(

Anyway, who buys computers these days? It's all big smart phone, tablets or things like the Microsoft Surface or similar hybrid tablet things. Some laptops but buying an actual computer and then installing Linux :o


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40 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

I'm probably not the only person who thinks this way. I'm sure there are a fair number of web designers that'd be interested in doing the same, since Linux comes with a number of IDEs and code editors integrated into the OS directly. Though I can't tell you exactly how big this linux-considering demographic is, it might be big enough for Serif to consider leveraging at some point in the not too distant future. 

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/

- more than half of the developers are web developers

- more than half of the developers are working for Linux, or contribute to open source

- 1/2 Windows users, 1/4 Mac users, 1/4 Linux users

- Linux is the most loved platform, JavaScript, Node and Angular the most popular technologies

- people still super salty about Windows Phone, Share Point and WordPress lol

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24 minutes ago, mzzfdrc said:

Graphic design for print - though with third parties doing the printing luckily - and studying/doing it in university,

Ah, learning to do what I was doing for thirty years.

Now, listen to me sonny ;)

oldman.png.e2042ae79f40752b43019c06c9069d21.png


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I see a lot of people buying PCs around here, yet. And laptops...

Quote

 I don't know anybody at all who uses Linux here, 

Very long ago, during a bunch of years, I landed on a group of people to go out in the weekends, just for having some pizza and going out, all were linux hardcore users. Admins, devrs and etc, but all sharing animosity against Windows (yet, curiously, a good vibe for the Mac...we all know this is not uncommon). I was the Windows crazy one, just because I had been for long  someone with dual boot, and was familiar with the two, BUT would defend Windows virtues in that environment.... They all had meet at the college, shared same interests... the issue was that they had close to zero professional contact with others using Windows/Mac, and all that was too alien for them. That ain't good, either.


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1 minute ago, toltec said:

Ah, learning to do what I was doing for thirty years.

Now, listen to me sonny ;)

oldman.png.e2042ae79f40752b43019c06c9069d21.png

Read my post above yours and say again professionals don't use Linux lol, I'll be trying to sleep here holding off the facepalm

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16 minutes ago, mzzfdrc said:

Read my post above yours and say again professionals don't use Linux lol, I'll be trying to sleep here holding off the facepalm

Why do Linux user never listen or read anything ?

I have said time and time again, apart from internet stuff and a few specialist (mainly computer)  things professionals don''t use Linux.

You are obsessed with the internet and an Operating Software and trying to prove it is better than what 99.99% of real world professional users use.

 

I don't suppose it will get through, but I'll try again.

APART FROM INTERNET STUFF AND A FEW SPECIALIST TRADES. PROFESSIONAL USERS DON'T USE LINUX

Why? No decent software. You and the other Linux users constantly pestering Serif are proof of that.

 

All Linux users ever say is Internet, Internet, professional users, software developers, internet. It's always people who work on computers, never people who actually use them. If it wasn't for people who actually use computers, none of your 'professionals' would have a job. That includes Adobe, Microsoft and Serif.

Turn away from your computer for a few minutes and look around. I just did.

Yikes, that wall need cleaning :o

 

 


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I think he (toltec) means pros in the editorial, print world. I can tell you the ones I know think of a black term window like the return to the caves, and don't want to hear about anything other than about their mac world. One of them has called me to fix his network or other super simple stuff in his macs. There are many niches which are totally closed to other OSes. I mean, these guys don't even want to hear about Windows, either. I've known people in very long standing FX companies that (despite the many of these today that are UNIX/Linux based) are all mac based. They discard fully candidates if they don't handle Apple Macs. Even telling them you are a Windows or Linux users is a negative point, by itself. And is not the only niches where I have seen this. ( in media agencies, etc)

It is logical that he tells you that, and that you only see Linux centric stuff everywhere. You are, IMO, moving in very different worlds.... 

Like, in games at least til 2006, me mentioning Linux to make people aware of it would just cause laughs of very loud nature. In 4 very different game companies.

I only mean that in one niche rules some stuff, in others is a total different matter...


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I have had the "luck" of having worked for quite some time at : web design firms -at the start of internet, even, lol...not Arpanet,(I've never been a militar or scientist, lol) , but yep BBS times...- , game studios (pixel art, 3D, concept, every type of game graphic, etc), doing all the print stuff at quite some companies, unrelated, but as a teacher, tech support, kindda linux operator for some time, and doing more recent years -many- UI/Web/coding work (lately, just illustrator and 2D/3D freelancer). At apps developers, too. many more varied companies. Each place had its own closed niche world. And wouldn't believe how people can deal with different stuff. I've sometimes fantasized with putting together a large table, and some food, to sit there a bunch of people from all those different niches, to talk about their preferences in tech/OSes/development/habits... they would be surprised in many aspects.  Probably would have many heated discussions about...everything. As they are all too tied to always using the same environment and etc. Any change sounds as an aggression to their way of living...  Windows, Mac, and Linux users, coding in this or that language, using Max, Blender, XSI , Maya, Corel better than Adobe, PHP vs Ruby, ... etc... is always a bit the same behavior, repeated, with slight changes.


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4 minutes ago, SrPx said:

I think he (toltec) means pros in the editorial, print world. I can tell you the ones I know think of a black term window like the return to the caves, and don't want to hear about anything other than about their mac world. One of them has called me to fix his network or other super simple stuff in his macs. There are many niches which are totally closed to other OSes. I mean, these guys don't even want to hear about Windows, either. I've known people in very long standing FX companies that (despite the many of these today that are UNIX/Linux based) are all mac based. They discard fully candidates if they don't handle Apple Macs. Even telling them you are a Windows or Linux users is a negative point, by itself. And is not the only niches where I have seen this.

It is logical that he tells you that, and that you only see Linux centric stuff everywhere. You are, IMO, moving in very different worlds.... 

Like, in games at least til 2006, me mentioning Linux to make people aware of it would just cause laughs of very loud nature. In 4 very different game companies.

I only mean that in one niche rules some stuff, in others is a total different matter...

It took many years for Autodesk to bring some of their editors to OS X, but they did (back in 2012 or something). Their codebase, just like the Adobe's, is huge. It's no surprise they're slow at adopting new platforms, even iOS, both of them, and Linux of course has been ignored because Windows basically stole the entire IBM compatible market.

Let's move on though, depending on a single company means they get to decide the weather we say, just like Internet Explorer did until WebKit went open-source. Same issue with Android and iOS really, I'm sick of Google deciding singlehandedly for the entire mobile market and enforcing their Market and Services, even if I use them.

The truth at the bottom is that some jobs just aren't tied to either Windows or Mac. Office works in the browser now, ChromeOS is a thing for light users, and most Windows installs are either ancient embedded systems or terminals that handle other systems. I did an internship for a UX company in 2016 and they were working on user interfaces for major companies in Italy to be used through Java, the browser or even PDAs because you can't bring a desktop on vans and they needed the flexibility to push hot fixes and new ideas and integrations. Even the company responsible for the power lines use a web based interface for their database, just like healthcare goes through databases and private APIs with terminals built usually over Java. Java is not OS specific of course.

Heck, even my mother does all the management of wages and stuff like that on a web terminal and my father handled a solar farm with a Java interface that receives data through private connections. And my father-in-law works with IoT stuff like KNX, which is an open standard.

Reliance on Windows is pretty much on paper, mostly because licensing is cheap.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, SrPx said:

I think he (toltec) means pros in the editorial, print world.

Partly. I am trying to convince these younger generations that there is a physical world.

They are obsessed by what is presented to them on a screen of some sort.

As a printer, I had to deal with hundreds of different trades, builders, flower shops, doctors, insurance salespeople, etc, etc, etc. They are all professionals, who use computers. Countless trades, who nearly all use Windows because it does the job. Linux doesn't, largely due to the support network not being there. Suppliers to software..

All the Linux people here ever think of is revolved around their computer, software or the internet.

I feel old :(

Time for a nap.

nap.png.e959c8168cbe3efe4b6818bddc19322d.png

 


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Quote

Reliance on Windows is pretty much on paper, mostly because licensing is cheap.

Windows is installed at every home PC I know of, except those Linux friends I mentioned above. And... Each home I know of, friends, neighbors, professionals I deal with, friends of my friends, folks I meet in a pub, people which situations are described to me (about having a PC at home)....All is PC, and Windows. Very few cases with a Mac ( but right now, around here, I can think of more cases than with Linux). Linux, only those friends (less than ten people). And some people from my jobs at web dev companies ( I was inaccurate before, one of the game companies was Linux based. It sunk immediately, tho, But not due to Linux fault). Of course, could be my "luck", and my country. Who knows. I'm known for solving issues with PCs in several OSes among friends, or people that know people that I know, etc.... and called often to fix this or that (in exchange of some 0,0 beer, making me a delicious dinner, or whatever, lol). True that today most of those have also some sort of portable device, be it a phablet, tablet, or laptop. (and every soul has a phone or several).

Sincerely, I see no decay in Windows usage. Not being happy or unhappy about this being so, honestly. My main point is always pragmatism. Whatever comes as replacement (Linux, or whatever shows up) is fine with me. ONCE (never a second before) I can do what I have to do with the software that I need, with whatever the OS replacement. No preference.

 


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About why there's a barrier if the whatever OS isn't simple... you realize why and how solid is that one, when you go to a shop to buy some hardware device, and hear a customer leaving a PC to the guy (I believe this was just a month ago, or so, not "history"..) so that he would update the antivirus for him. The customer was unable to do that :o  . And for the AV brand which was, is like usual, right click, hit update (even if he was upgrading to a new version, dumb easy), if is not set as automatic already. That besides making a backup of all files for him, not even caring about the privacy of all his documents being checked by the shop guy !! . Now try that person to worry about telemetry and privacy... they don't give a.... ahem. This is pretty much the situation. Is not something am defending: Am a geek of some sort. Is what I see...


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