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I have 20 years in IT, professionally, I can tell I have seen all kinds of fields, from car producing to web. Everywhere you use a computer, you have to learn more.

Tell that to the (funny, she had ended an statistics career, we have a career like that here, is kind of similar to maths career... I started maths (and by that time, skipped it, and ended fine arts.), so those folks were pretty near to our building) tech support / sys admin (Linux) that was in charge of putting me up to speed in a university IT department where I started to work as tech support and web designer (btw, they made me install a bunch of Apache servers and configure there e-commerce shops. Many, many years ago.)  .... she was NOT able to handle a zip file with Winzip under Windows. She was in charge of Windows support as the most frequent system to support, from the teachers. She had been years there (issue when you have A LOT of souls as tech support is they avoid things they don't know, ask a colleague to deal with it...for years. Instead of learning ) and it was urgent. So, I explained to her how to use that, easy and fast. To my own shock, she was surprised : "How an designer does know this? is not your field. " I laughed savagely, but inside. It was hard to keep a serious face, I tell ya.


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R C-R, in short:

Even software developers are different kind with different knowledge levels as need for their job, so system administrators should solve functional OS problems like crashes and bugs.

By system admins I don't mean uses having access level as administrator, but professionals knowing how to handle the OS problems.

From my point of view, collecting data about an user is the problem, not how it is done, as I can't completely select what data I allow to be collected or not.

 

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9 hours ago, NNois said:

Nearly all Corporate managed by ITs tends to be pushed on Linux! In general, here in Europe Starting from Governments, Shopping malls, big Facilities, every ultra professional users are on Linux it's a necessity if they want to be in control and secure.

My case... 4 game studios.... None of each ever installed a single Linux machine. true we're talking abotu small / mid size studios.

6 other companies about mixed stuff... software and web developement. Most cases is a 50% scenario. One of them was fully Linux with some "Windows rebels". In the college as support, it was 90% hardcore linux people (but a little few some very newbie) , but the funny thing is it was to attend almost only windows machines (pcs and laptops). Well, and of course, a HUGE network and beast sized servers. That was all Linux, and worked greately (there I ONLY used Linux machines, for over a year. It was just fine after a much better job at other place, but I was unemployed, u take anything...).

IMO; it depends on the type of business, the comfort zone of the CTO in OS matters, and the actual needs of the business. A mixed bag, and rarely is just one only platform, in the 10 places I've been at, and larger bunch that people, ex-colleagues report me from other places (very varied).

 


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@SrPx, I know, but this thread is far long discussing things not related to the Serif making a Linux version.

By your definition, I'm a geek too. I've also have a bachelor in computer science and maths (I have studied statistics too).

My Illustrator adventure with scripting started when I had a lot of rejected vectors that were too complex for my eye, so I took a free script to find the issue and fix it. Then I've wondered how much could I do and was amazed. I was too late for Scriptographer, but I could integrate SpiderMonkey in Illustrator as my own plugin using C/C++ with templates. That because I was not satisfied of what I've found in the default script manager. I've met excellent people with this occasion at Mozilla.

As minority (I see too many statistics contradicting on the matter), Linux users will come from time to time to ask for some good software anyway. What I don't understand is why others try so hard to shut them up (probably one of the moderators here was right, they are afraid of a company spending its time on other points of interests, although I don't think it's the case here).

Anecdotically, it is said about Windows that are 10 incomplete ways to do a thing, then comes somebody to solve that and implements the 11th incomplete thing. So it is in open source, IMHO, that including Linux. For graphics there are so many ways to develop a RAW file, but none close to the proefficiency of closed source solutions, as I wonder why those open solutions can't come together to approach it as close. Why so many parties? (rhetorically asking).

 

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I can assure you nearly every Indy Artist with 5y+ of experience I know have plans to move on Linux, some did, some not, waiting for more software support.

I have ALWAYS got laughed at, at game studios, when I try to get people interested in Blender, Wings3D, and Linux in general. Seriously, this has happened to me everytime. No matter if in the breakfast time, or an important meeting proposing a cutting-costs solution for just some small area, non crucial... :/ 

While in the last company (software development under linux and web stuff) I'd get laughed at when defending some windows solutions. The story of my life. maybe I should have chosen the stand-up comedy, as career, seems I'm good at making ppl laugh  :D 


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 I've also have a bachelor in computer science and maths

Ehm....My comment was just for the fact that I knew the type of people from physical proximity... I was only half a year, once I researched the close to no job expected situation with that career in my specific local area, I moved to Fine Arts, that's the only title I have (and a master in multimedia products creation, and a bunch of courses, but that's it). Still, I loved those studies.

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why others try so hard to shut them up (probably one of the moderators here was right, they are afraid of a company spending its time on other points of interests, although I don't think it's the case here).

Is your impression, only. Because indeed, it is exactly the case, what the company member mentioned :). Do u really think I have any emotion against Linux? And when you like a thing you care in that thing improving  (but using it without being practical for the task, would be crazy) . You would be wrong. The main symptom of how I am is why I am handling Blender and Wings. Of course, price is crucial, but...till some point. I've put a lot of money in my hardware, not cheaping out there.  There's not exactly a total need to use Max for what I do. Max is my area of professional comfort for the companies, but it'd be "easier" to have just put together some bucks, and buy a basic version of Cinema 4D, or a combo of Modo and some other specialized tools.  Even Lightwave, which is a great software, still updated and in good shape, is not at an impossible price (~900 bucks, full purchase. Even several single devices of mine costed quite more). And kind of would have been easier than mastering Blender. Plus, it is still more powerful than Blender (not sure about the rendering, tho. Blender's CYCLES is great). I just like to be realistic. Dunno about anyone else, but I can tell you I have no any bad will, evil emotions, or sth against Linux, lol...

You will see clearly this, how is not about linux, when some of us also criticize some proposals of making a new video editor or an After Effects killer, etc. It is just that the company is clearly at the very limit of resources and already with a lot of fields to fix, fronts to battle (iOS, Apub...) to not fall into a "bad name" situation. It really needs to keep improving those areas and focus on APub , before new "challenges accepted".  But that's it. And is just an opinion matter. It's Serif's call, no matter what. Too much that they let both sides to write wild and very random opinions about it without closing threads as any other company would do, is quite the usual case. At least, from me that's the main argument. Dunno others. If linux users feel easily attacked or 'victims', that's a very different issue, and...not new.... ;)  If I attacked Linux just a 50% of what every linux user here attack Windows (yet to see a single exception to that. Just one. For example, you attack it a lot, almost in every single post :D  ), man you would then see what it is like.... :D   You could as well have realized that around here (because is a Win/Mac based software) a bunch are Windows and Mac users. Why is it that we have to stand any sort of attack to our OS, but you can't even make a reasonable debate in the matter of using Linux, when it is even bringed in a thread the "need" of diverting even more Serif's resources ?  :o  . I find that pretty curious. Anyway, I don't really care about the OS battles, per se, as a concept. The OS doesn't occupy a place in my heart, no matter what it is. Is not a person  :D


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No, you've got it wrong. First of all, I don't say you try to shut me up. You really have arguments. And not Serif at all. Other guys, not all.

And I do not attack Windows. I have pointed some issues that came lately on many of my colleagues machines.

I don't think somebody would agree with collecting their data, though.

About my bachelor, I point out that I know what means to have maths and especially statistics as a background. From my point of view, is a total waste of time if you don't do your studies of some sort in order to achieve results in some field. And those are usually additional to the bachelor itself. For me, it's just a practical thing to have a diploma, not a goal. The interships I've done during that were priceless.

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Yep, diplomas are just a piece of paper... :)   (I've know so, so many people even confessing me they can't draw or even do a right color composition after completing the Fine Arts career....) I find that a lot of ppl in the US feel impressed by the titles, is my all poor personal data collection, but in Europe seems considered less crucial... (and more the real knowledge / culture )

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. I've read that Vangelis said once he prefers synths, but no computers at all as they tend to stay in the way of the creative act and I believe him. Sadly, technical issues arise all the time, tablets suddenly have issues due to the OS, lags or bad software like Photoshop handling brushes with tablets etc. happen. Here comes the blues. And as long as you use a computer, you might need to tune it, to understand how to make it more proeficient, to chose the software understanding why it behaves or not,

 

Indeed... Another kind of....sample about how the typical even digital artist (I will leave the fully traditional ones out, although I know a bunch of youtube channels really making crazy bucks with pure traditional, packaging themselves the art for the clients, doing nice business, kindda yet another strong come back, once again B| ) is really really unwilling to use time and energy in solving technical issues is that...not only here, but everywhere, in internet or locally, I keep solving issues with tablets (pen-displays and pen-tablets) ,when not in entire systems. Is a device that is such a problems bringer, so there comes the revenge of the geek... I used to, in any pub , disco, party, etc... try to escape from the usual non-geek that had detected me as someone "knowing about computers" because it's like when they find a doctor: They have a collections of questions and issues that they want to ask to save the bucks of going to tech support (or a doctor). I try to change the subject, as if not, you get bored the 99% of people around, besides feeling the night as "more work" . That 99% of people is sometimes artists. And they typically laugh at you for the geekiness. Except when they install a new tablet, or the network fails in their home with their mac. Then they call you (the revenge of the geek :D ) . The huuuuuge majority of them feel lost there. I have even watched intensive, well done video reviews (not only one so, but one comes to mind) of a tablet, being very good and accurate in its usage review, but failing tremendously when qualifying it as a trash-tablet, just because they had certain tech issue. Which is well known case of not having been able to fully uninstall the previous tablet drivers, sth often known as a no-no with Wacom alternatives, and...very basic. And that person is a widely admired tablet reviewer ! But ultimately.... and artist. A digital painter. One of the good ones. There you go, there's the prob. And is someone really smart, very clever. Is just a side in which he is not interested on. Now, you explain that to him. He still complains. "WHY should I be aware of that", he says. Till some point, he'd be spot on. Why some products offer that reliability out of the box (iPad Pro, Apple in general) , and not the same with a chinese tablet and a low end PC? Heck, you get what u pay for. I for one prefer a thousand times to deal with it. If I were charging 20k per drawing my time would be WAY more valuable than the bucks saved in top higher end hardware (btw, not really any iOS device. I'm talking maybe anything very expensive PC/Mac based, of workstation nature.

The making the Adobe CC 2018 trial work in a 2009 machine without large sized brush lags was a challenge itself. And only my geekiness made me keep at it. I had no use for that, other than a "pride" question, and, perhaps, kind of the know-how earned in case I'd have to go back to CC for some reason, as with the huge loss in performance you can see in it just out of the box install, I was fearing weird performance even with a future ryzen !! I needed to fiddle, mixing knowledge from some weirdos from the web to tweak windows to overcome certain stuff,  plus trying crazy settings and own research. I got it. It worked smooth as butter. For absolutely no purpose. Sth the regular artist would never do. And... I might say, within reason. Is probably a knowledge I will never use, unless the very rare situation if I stop freelancing and get into a company AND their machines are really old despite getting the CC to use it in them !  Time better used in whatever other matter, I can tell you.

No matter how spot on you are about it in that paragraph : People is like it is, and not sure if you visit a lot certain artists communities, but among  legions of young artists, specially manga comic artists, but also freelance digital painters, there's this super extended mantra that PS is slow for painting, terrible brush/painting performance. This got born even with CS versions from CS3 and onward... which are thousand times faster in performance and response, way way lighter than CC 2018, indeed. They have not tried the latter and never will.  They massively moved to Manga Studio (distributed out of Japan as Clip Studio Paint, but initially was Manga Studio the external version, too) and wont ever look back . The sad thing is, while their choice was good, uber cheap price, outstanding performance,  amazing brush behavior, if they get some internship at a company it is gonna be PS yes or yes, and they wont have the expertise, they'll have this resistance against that, and that's bad. Their conclusion was due to this : non tech/Os loving ppl, not even able to realize that is not PS the solely culprit, is that they are majorly using the usual teenager's (non hardcore FPS gamer (instead, e-sports or minecraft types), those are other beasts, and typically are PS fans)  machine, often a poor laptop, from an AMD E1, to a core i3, passing by celerons and under powered pentiums, with an integrated card, an only 5400 rpm disk, never defragmented, and main shared memory. Any CS has issues to give a nice experience painting over large canvases and big brushes with those machines. Let alone in saturated OSes with lots of game loaders, often being filled with trojans that miners used to put there without the kids even knowing, and lots of non-evil but unneeded TSRs eating resources. Is just that CSP uses super few resources, is close to a miracle. There's no way any of those is gonna install a CC 2018 and be satisfied, even in a current good machine.

And that wont change (those are the future artists at the companies!! :o  ). If anything we are running in the opposite direction. PC is more and more for pros only, and some pros are moving to tablets. Phones, tablets... environments where you are requested to have less and less control of your OS, less "geekiness". So, obviously, people in general, pros and what not, are going to feel less and less the need to have that knowledge, skills and capabilities. IMO, this is the reality, we can choose to asume it or not, like with any other thing. I'll keep myself knowing at least slightly my systems, too old to change.


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2 hours ago, msdobrescu said:

By system admins I don't mean uses having access level as administrator, but professionals knowing how to handle the OS problems.

Do you really think one must be a "professional" (whatever you mean by that) to know how to properly handle all these kinds of problems? There are basic steps simple enough for anyone to do that will solve many of them, beginning with the time honored traditional & often very effective step of simply restarting the computer. Beyond that, it is not at all unusual for end users not to be so brain damaged or clueless that they can't follow the simple troubleshooting instructions available from various sources written specifically for non-technical Windows or MacOS users.

3 hours ago, msdobrescu said:

From my point of view, collecting data about an user is the problem, not how it is done, as I can't completely select what data I allow to be collected or not.

Apple actually gives users several options regarding how much user data they collect, & are very up-front about how much personally identifiable user data they collect that end users cannot opt out of Apple collecting. That is far less than you seem to think. Most of it is needed to enable services Apple provides to its users & just as importantly to protect those users from its misuse by others. That includes the same kind of personalized, one-on-one OS support services you say professionals should handle, except that with Apple you are getting support not just from the company that wrote the OS but also designed the hardware it runs on.


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23 hours ago, toltec said:

Why?

If you are a taxi driver, do you have to learn how to fix the car?

Anyway, these days cars are so complex and so emission controlled, you can't. You need to plug a computer with dealer supplied software into it.

The same if you are a farmer. What farmer would service a new tractor or harvester?

Why should an accountant, a lawyer or a graphic designer need to spend weeks learning how to service his computer?

It's just that some computer users are geeks and think like geeks. No offence ;)

 

It is a bit bewildering to read such statements because Farmers are in fact modifying their tractors and Harvesters and other items software/hardware. - once you realize how much a new tractor costs, you start gladly paying the support team of the opensource projects money to keep your business afloat.

Even the US-Military which has plenty of resources is using more and more opensource software and printing out hardware for fixing items in their fifth generation F-35 aircraft to be able to be efficient and to have the things on hand.
In this particular case: The costs form $70.000 where lowered to roughly 9 cents.
https://dod.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1498121/


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2 hours ago, myclay said:

It is a bit bewildering to read such statements because Farmers are in fact modifying their tractors and Harvesters and other items software/hardware. - once you realize how much a new tractor costs, you start gladly paying the support team of the opensource projects money to keep your business afloat.

I don't think you actually did read the statements?

As I said, " What farmer would service a new tractor or harvester?"

These things are very expensive, the moment you hack it, you would almost certainly invalidate the manufacturer's gaurantee. So the hack could end up costing you far more. Also, if you employ staff to drive these things, your insurance would probably not cover you. You would certainly need to tell the insurance company or you would not be covered and could end up losing everything. Obviously, these things can be done, and are done, but it's nowhere near as smart as you would like to think.

And if you are dumb enough to do it illegally, you certainly shouldn't be dumb enough to broadcast it on YouTube. 

I don't know about the USA but Europe is quite restrictive about that sort of thing.


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2 hours ago, myclay said:

It is a bit bewildering to read such statements because Farmers are in fact modifying their tractors and Harvesters and other items software/hardware.

What if anything does this have to do with Serif developing Linux versions of the Affinity apps?


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Nothing of course, which applies to just about the entire thread. Like it or not, Serif have said they are not developing for Linux so that as they say is that :-)

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I note that many posters on this thread are particularly prolix. (That sounds like a good name for an operating system.)

Some time ago, I suggested that this thread be moved to its own forum (for lost causes as I recall). Could I re-iterate this suggestion, then the rest of us can read the main forum without these interpolations.

John


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5 minutes ago, John Rostron said:

I note that many posters on this thread are particularly prolix.

Isn’t it ironic that ‘monosyllabic’ has five syllables but ‘prolix’ has only two? :P


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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

What if anything does this have to do with Serif developing Linux versions of the Affinity apps?

No idea, just trying to correct some seemingly wrong statements about different industries in this thread here.

 


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23 minutes ago, myclay said:

No idea, just trying to correct some seemingly wrong statements about different industries in this thread here.

 

You mean by stating that a farmer will buy a brand new tractor or harvester and invalidate the gaurantee by soldering in a few cheap electronic components bought from his local store? ;)


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2 hours ago, αℓƒяє∂ said:

Isn’t it ironic that ‘monosyllabic’ has five syllables but ‘prolix’ has only two? :P

Very true. It is just unfortunate that 'prolix' means using lots of words rather than using lots of syllables.

John


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1 minute ago, John Rostron said:

Very true. It is just unfortunate that 'prolix' means using lots of words rather than using lots of syllables.

It’s a bit difficult to use lots of words without using lots of syllables at the same time! ;)


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2 hours ago, John Rostron said:

I note that many posters on this thread are particularly prolix. (That sounds like a good name for an operating system.)

Some ime ago, I suggested that this thread be moved to its own forum (for lost causes as I recall). Could I re-iterate this suggestion, then the rest of us can read the main forum without these interpolations.

John

Yes, if only people would stop posting on it ;)


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2 hours ago, John Rostron said:

Some ime ago, I suggested that this thread be moved to its own forum (for lost causes as I recall). Could I re-iterate this suggestion, then the rest of us can read the main forum without these interpolations.

John

Given the divergence into off-topic messages, this does rather reinforce this suggestion!

John


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I don't understand... if you are not subscribed to this thread, and simply, don't open it if it appears bumped in the whatever forum section (I tend to use the other methods to check new stuff, rather than traditionally going to a particular forums section)  then what is the issue ? ( I mean, just don't open / read it )


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Can't... stop... clicking... :51_scream:


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1 hour ago, h_d said:

Can't... stop... clicking... :51_scream:

Personally, I stopped reading this thread ages ago.

Er :/ ..  :$


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