Affinity products for Linux

[The Letter M]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:48 AM, - S - said:

The market share doubled in two months, which seems odd. Perhaps it's all those system admins downloading Ubuntu/openSUSE/SLES from the Windows Store and playing with Linux subsystem on Windows.   However, it's worth bearing in mind not just market share in absolute numbers, but also the popularity of Mac's amongst creatives and in the creative industry, which market share alone doesn't reflect.

 

As a Linux admin myself, I see a lot of kids who run Linux in Virtualbox too.

[msdobrescu]

I trust this: https://truelist.co/blog/linux-statistics/

I believe this is paid by the Linux Corporation: https://www.fortunebusinessinsights.com/linux-operating-system-market-103037

[Komatös]

Don't trust any statistics that you haven't falsified yourself. 🤣

Why hasn't Microsoft ported its Office Suite to Linux long ago, even though it would be easy to use the Mac version for it? Why doesn't Steinberg develop their music editing programmes for Linux?  Well, because there are too few customers who would pay for it.

[Pšenda]

For some, these two completely different terms are difficult to distinguish.

26 minutes ago, Komatös said:

Well, because there are too few customers who would pay for it.

On 6/20/2022 at 11:15 AM, MattyWS said:

in all fairness, the number of linux users is in the several billions

 

P.S. The number of users mentioned in the context of potential Photoshop users is particularly funny.

 

[msdobrescu]

3 hours ago, Komatös said:

Don't trust any statistics that you haven't falsified yourself. 🤣

Why hasn't Microsoft ported its Office Suite to Linux long ago, even though it would be easy to use the Mac version for it? Why doesn't Steinberg develop their music editing programmes for Linux?  Well, because there are too few customers who would pay for it.

No idea about Steinberg, MS Office I don't need as LibreOffice has all I need. Also RawTherapee or DarkTable and Hugin are fine, I just need a better panorama application and Photoshop was so good so far. The irony is Photoshop works fine under Linux, its integration with the logon is the problem, technically, to run it under Wine.

[Komatös]

And yet Photoshop is and remains a desktop application for Windows or macOS. And wine is just an emulator that doesn't even come close to the performance of a native application.

And all the other applications you listed are OSS and free. The developers of these programs are mostly working here on a voluntary basis. But Serif and Adobe have to make money. And with OSS it is like with a commercial kitchen .... many cooks spoil the broth.

[msdobrescu]

Well, if you wonder how did I got using them, is not because they are free.

At the time, as student, I used MS Office to write my papers, eventually I was writing a book to help my fellow students use Visual FoxPro. I was organizing it, doing complex layouts, adding images etc.. After 300 pages, it simply broke. All the stuff went mixed. A glitch in MS Office. I have rearranged it, it blew again. This time I had backup copies.

So I have tried StarOffice. Was great and did the same things. Was not free at the time, there was no much Internet, I have payed the shipping and the media too. But switched away from MS Office. So it began. I use LibreOffice now, even for backward compatibility with old MS Office documents that can't be opened anymore with the current versions.

The other apps were also done with a reason, a need not related to the no need of no cost to access it. They are doing things in their ways to achieve specific goals. They are more precise in some regards. For a photography hobbyist is enough. I've seen pros using them too. Even for stock photography. Let's say its a momentum to still use PS, but not a true necessity.

Also the freedom. The system does not spend resources on metering and assessing the user, while the user pays for that. Not to mention selling this data. And you don't own your copy as it can be revoked and not even refunded or may lose access to your work too.

Usually, when you pay for software, it's clear what you need, because you start asking for specific features. FOSS is more open, there you find more requests, the help the community to express. It's also imperfect, but I find it more reliable in matter of expectations. If I ask a paid software maker do I get what I ask for? Not necessarily. So I chose based on my needs, not on the price or the fact that if I pay for it would be a warranty of some sort.

[MattyWS]

16 minutes ago, Komatös said:

And yet Photoshop is and remains a desktop application for Windows or macOS. And wine is just an emulator that doesn't even come close to the performance of a native application.

I hate to be that guy but wine isn't an emulator, it's literally in the name. Applications running through wine vary from being borked to actually running faster via wine linux than on windows natively. Wine will only really get better and more efficient over time. Protons the same, in some games I play, playing via proton on linux yields better performance with far more FPS, much to my surprise. It's magic to me as I have no idea really how it works but it's just a translation layer, not an emulator (which usually require your hardware specs be far beyond that of the platform you're trying to emulate).

[msdobrescu]

@LondonSquirrel, don't twist what I say. The problem is using a core system component which is missing from Wine, not Photoshop.

[msdobrescu]

47 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

It's not twisting at all. I am merely pointing out that a Linux version of Photoshop has been requested, and that request has been denied. Yet the thread still goes on.

Photoshop works, other component is the problem, that is part of Windows. Once that is implemented in Wine, Photoshop works fine under. Unfortunately, Affinity Photo does not.

[wonderings]

19 hours ago, Kajac said:

I partially disagree with what you're saying.

SERIF is fully capable of providing support to run.

Even if it is using Linux X, with kernel X and with minimum hardware X.

PlayOnLinux and Lutris are here!

Regarding performance, there's nowhere to flee, both in windows and macOS have limitations, especially if we take into account the end user's hardware!

----------------------------

Anyway, for users who defend against, I still don't see any sense in it! Why don't you want it to run on linux?

I don't think anyone does not want it to run in Linux, myself and others are pointing out why it probably does not make sense for Serif to develop their software for Linux. I think it would be great to have more options despite not using Linux myself. On the business side of things I don't think it makes sense. 

[wonderings]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:51 PM, MattyWS said:

I disagree.. every company has to consider the pros and cons of platforms and how much money they need to spend on staffing. We've established Linux is used by a lot of the creative industry as well so I think it's fair to compare other companies that make creative softwares to this company that also makes creative softwares and just because Adobe does or doesn't do something doesn't mean anything more or less for Serif.

 

You say adobe don't develop for linux so why should serif? Well Adobe also specialize in 3D, game development, film production, music etc etc so if Serif are copying them then maybe they should waste money on making software like that too, right? Either they copy Adobe or they don't I don't think you can have it both ways. This may just be a difference in opinion but Serif have said they don't want to be compared to Adobe. I mean if we're going there then why even use Affinity products at all if Adobe exists? Serif *need* to do things differently to Adobe to stand out otherwise they may as well not exist.

The numbers of professionals who use Affinity Photo compared to Photoshop are probably on par with the numbers of people who use Windows or Linux. May as well expand into a new platform where Adobe doesn't exist.

Anyways this really comes down to opinions in the end. Other companies have thrived while making a Linux version of their software I don't think it will kill Serif, but ultimately it's their choice and heck, Serif already make choices that are extreme opposites of what I'd consider good (no good alpha/channel editing? No real support for channel packing? Basic stuff people need that serif claim no one needs and so they don't want to include it). Nothing I or anyone can do other than voice their wants and needs and it's on the whim of serif to decide to listen or not.

I dont think I or anyone else needs to convince the forum users here if Linux is a good idea. You guys are entitled to like Windows or Mac and nothing else but it's still super weird how passionate some people are about hating Linux for no gain.

You disagree that every company is different? You have no clue what spending is like internally, what they prioritize in terms of staffing from developers, techs, IT, CSR's, sales, etc. Every company is the same in that they all have similar roles to fill, but how the do it and what they prioritize will be very different. 

Not sure what your point is regarding Adobe. Adobe makes the 3 big apps that Serif has offered alternatives too: Indesign, Illustrator and Photoshop. Adobe decided it was not worth developing for Linux and I am assuming that it is because it does not predict the returns to be worth the money that would be put in to developing and supporting Adobe CC on Linux. Serif cannot avoid being compared to Adobe as again, they are making direct competing software of Adobe's big 3 apps. Serif is going after a different market than Adobe. Adobe is not made for the home user who wants some reasonable design tools and options at an affordable price. Adobe is the standard in many industries and made for the pro user, pro user as in people who make their living with the Adobe software. Serif is no slouch, but they are not Adobe and not in a place for most to give up a standard and all the great things that come with Adobe CC. If I was working on my own, just doing my own poster printing for people out of my house I would go with Serif for sure. In the print/design world where standards matter and equipment is made to work with Adobe, and you need accurate file reproduction as well as collaboration, Adobe is it. 

I am sure there are lots of things missing or people would like changed. I don't use the Affinity apps for work though I bought all 3 to check them out and see how they compare and if it would be something we could ever switch to at work. Serif has done some amazing work and produced some high quality software for most people at a very affordable price, I find it hard to complain about lack of features considering the price point.

Serif has made it clear they are not developing or planning to develop for Linux, the market is small and I am assuming Serif does not see great gains for the effort it will take to support a Linux option. And again, I don't think anyone is hating Linux, there is no passion for not developing for Linux. What there is is reason, and I would say the passion is on the other hand in the Linux community who just can't accept that developing for them would not be profitable. 

 

 

 

[MattyWS]

Its great that Affinity Suite is affordable and that they don't charge per month, year, per seat or per update but at the same time IMO Affinity is worth more than they charge. I think charging less than it's worth then excusing themselves for not being able to afford to add  features would be kind of self fullfilling.

They certainly don't have all the features that photoshop has but they do make questionable decisions with the features they do have. It's not a perfect software solution yet but it can be. I find it strange on their part that they refuse to at least try to compete with photoshop (which they've actually said specifically that they are not competing, maybe to avoid being curb stomped by the giant corporation).

They could compete in non-direct ways though, like getting their suite to platforms where Adobe doesn't exist and fixing some fundamental issues that are holding back the software. For example when asked if they could make alpha editing and channel packing easier for literally anyone doing anything other than photography, they simply state "no, we don't cater to those industries (vfx, television, games). it seems mind boggling that they could cater to these with small tweaks. Linux is a far greater ask for sure, but Serif is already stubborn on the little things and adamant that they're not for anything other than a really specific set of industries. Point being that Affinity could be so much more and make so much more money, cater to far more creative industries but they don't. You could say it's because it would cost more to do so, well they should charge more IMO.

[Renzatic]

On 6/24/2022 at 3:36 AM, Komatös said:

And yet Photoshop is and remains a desktop application for Windows or macOS. And wine is just an emulator that doesn't even come close to the performance of a native application.

WINE Is Not an Emulator! It's even says so in the name!

Though WINE is fairly performant compared to their Windows counterpart. You usually get native, or 99% native performance out of applications running through it. On rare occasions, you actually get better performance.

[Snapseed]

On 6/20/2022 at 10:15 AM, MattyWS said:

in all fairness, the number of linux users is in the several billions (that were able to be counted, which is quite difficult to count when linux typically doen't track users). How many of those people need a photo editor I dont know but it'd be unfair to say there's only a few hundred.

This is where there is an unfortunate Catch 22 situation. I have heard this so many times, "I'd like to move over to Linux but I need X, Y, and Z software to do my work" where X is Affinity Photo/Adobe Photoshop, Y is Affinity Designer/Adobe Illustrator and Z is Affinity Publisher/Adobe InDesign and even just working well with Wine would meet the needs of those people.

On 6/23/2022 at 6:48 PM, walt.farrell said:

I would be happy for it to run on Linux, under Wine, if the Wine community can make it happen.

 

 

There is also another route to take if Linux users have some spare time to help out.

CodeWeavers are now looking for what they call BetterTesters to submit user reports about the performance of their favourite games and applications (in this case the three Affinity applications) on the latest release beta development versions of CrossOver (commercial Wine).

More details can be found here:

https://www.codeweavers.com/bettertester

[msdobrescu]

2 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

The number of Wine users (on Linux) is even less than the number of Linux users. 

The number of Affinity or Adobe users is less than Windows + MacOS + Android users, probably as much.

[Komatös]

The fact is that the number of Linux users who would use Serif or Adobe products is so small that it is not worth developing for this platform. And you can howl like coyotes in Arizona. None of the software houses that offer programmes for image processing and creation develop for Linux. Just ask OnOne or another developer what a Linux version looks like. They will tell you the same thing.

[msdobrescu]

Actually I don't need Affinity products anymore as I can use equivalents already. I was just pointing to another failed logic.

[chiddekel]

.

[MattyWS]

On 6/26/2022 at 7:41 PM, LondonSquirrel said:

The number of Wine users (on Linux) is even less than the number of Linux users. 

this is meme worthy logic.

The number of Affinity users (Windows) is even less than the number of Windows users. Pack it up Serif there's no point in making software when 100% of the people on the platform wont use it lol

[MattyWS]

1 hour ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Evidently you don't understand. The number of Linux desktop users is tiny, about 1% of the desktop market. The number of Wine users on Linux is naturally less than the number of Linux users.

Your comparison with Windows is a fallacy. Serif has a viable market on Windows, as is demonstrated by its history.

It doesn't matter how big or small you think the linux userbase is, Wine is for people who want to use Windows applications, if the community gets Affinity working via Wine it will cost Serif zero money and people will happily be able to buy Affinity and use it on Linux, Your hatred for linux in this instance is unwarranted, pointless and proves you aren't simply thinking about Serifs money being "wasted" on a platform you clearly don't use, you're apparently just here to hate for the sake of it. Your comments are pointless and I think you know it, stop wasting everyones time.

[the.ckb]

I know I'm just one user, so this opinion is virtually worthless, but my reality is that the only thing keeping me in the Apple and Microsoft ecosystems is that Adobe and Serif don't offer Linux versions. If I could use RHEL/Ubuntu/Pop/whatever, I would in a heartbeat. Instead, all that's offered is GIMP, and no, that's not an effective substitute for Affinity or Adobe CC.

I don't know if this has already been said in the last 90 pages, but not supporting Linux is a self-fulfilling prophecy: Companies don't develop apps for Linux because it has too little market share, and it has small market share because users cannot get the apps needed for their workflow in Linux. We won't know if Affinity/Adobe for Linux will take off until it happens and sees adoption.

But it's always been said that Linux will never be viable for gaming because any studio would be stupid to develop for it because no gamers use it. Then Valve entered the chat with SteamOS, and now that it's had time to mature into 3.0, and SteamDeck exists to democratize a small-form-factor gaming system running on Linux, gaming on Linux is getting ever more popular. It's become an actual contender.

Obviously, Affinity isn't a game studio, but it's the same catch-22. I think Serif is in a better position to show, "hey, this is viable," compared to Adobe. And they could easily acquire a lot of Adobe customers begging for a Linux equivalent.

That's just me, though.

[wonderings]

4 hours ago, MattyWS said:

It doesn't matter how big or small you think the linux userbase is, Wine is for people who want to use Windows applications, if the community gets Affinity working via Wine it will cost Serif zero money and people will happily be able to buy Affinity and use it on Linux, Your hatred for linux in this instance is unwarranted, pointless and proves you aren't simply thinking about Serifs money being "wasted" on a platform you clearly don't use, you're apparently just here to hate for the sake of it. Your comments are pointless and I think you know it, stop wasting everyones time.

So you want no support for Serif running on Linux using Wine? If Serif is going to support their software running on Linux at all it will cost them money. There is no free ride here that has Serif making more money while they spend nothing and increasing their user base at the same time.

[MattyWS]

26 minutes ago, wonderings said:

So you want no support for Serif running on Linux using Wine? If Serif is going to support their software running on Linux at all it will cost them money. There is no free ride here that has Serif making more money while they spend nothing and increasing their user base at the same time.

it would be extra curricular for them just like most software that runs on wine. They don't have to do anything, if the community can get it to run then awesome. There was an instance just yesterday with the software World Creator, where I asked the devs if they were still planning on a linux version (because they had said they were), they said they've shelved the idea for now but that their older version worked flawlessly on wine according to their users, but they didn't know about their latest version, so I went and tried the latest version and it didn't work. Fine, I tried the older version and it was flawless. I told the devs this and they said awesome that the older version still works but they just hadn't gotten round to testing the new version for themselves, so I said "yea no worries I don't feel entitled to any kind of support for using this via wine it's ok ^^" with which they replied this; "We will have a look into this and try ourselves in WINE to see if we get it running"

And that's where we left off, this was yesterday. The dev seemed happy to help, but he hadn't really done anything to to get the software working and he'll probably try it out later and tinker a bit at his own pace. I welcome it even if I'm not entitled to that level of support on linux. This IMO is a healthy exchange. Until the latest version works I still have the version just down from that and it's all I need. I don't really understand why anyone on these forums are gatekeeping Serif devs and their "time and money" when it's up to Serif devs what they do. Even if no official version is made for linux, if they casually see to it that it may work through Wine then that's awesome, if the community getting working without Serif needing to step in then thats awesome too.

It's also just good for software devs to engage with their customers in a nice way IMO. A healthy discussion about getting Affinity working via wine or otherwise should not be a problem, where I'm sure LondonSquirrel will have everyone believe that trying to get Affinity running via wine will cost Serif billions and make them go under lol. 

[MattyWS]

19 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Taking up devs' time is not free.

Once again, predictable trolling and a lack of reading the conversation on your part.