Affinity products for Linux

[wonderings]

3 hours ago, MattyWS said:

in all fairness, the number of linux users is in the several billions (that were able to be counted, which is quite difficult to count when linux typically doen't track users). How many of those people need a photo editor I dont know but it'd be unfair to say there's only a few hundred.

According to that you think almost half the world is using Linux? Not so, at least not directly as one is using a Mac or Windows computer. From your link:

"Around 1.69% of all home desktop computers were using Linux, as of July 2020. In July 2019, the percentage was 1.65% while in July 2010, the adoption rate was only 0.77%."

[msdobrescu]

20 minutes ago, wonderings said:

You really think someone is paying people to think that Affinity on Linux is not a great idea for Serif? I don't think people really care all that much about Linux and certainly not enough to pay people to try and hold it back. No conspiracies here.... or have I just been paid to say this? Your will never know! Ok you will, I have not been paid. 

I certainly hope so! I see no reason to insist that much against a Linux version from a private entity.

[MattyWS]

4 minutes ago, wonderings said:

According to that you think almost half the world is using Linux? Not so, at least not directly as one is using a Mac or Windows computer. From your link:

"Around 1.69% of all home desktop computers were using Linux, as of July 2020. In July 2019, the percentage was 1.65% while in July 2010, the adoption rate was only 0.77%."

yes, one way or another you would likely have used linux be it chromeOS, Android, maybe you have cloud storage which is likely linux so it's used in the billions though obviously desktop users would be less. I can probably do some basic maths here just out of curiosity, if 250,000,000 computers are sold each year and about only 2% of those are going to linux users thats 5,000,000 linux users a year. Even if just 1% of that userbase wanted to use affinity photo (not including the rest of the suit) thats 50,000 sales a year, which would be at least £2,500,000 at £50 a sale each year. high numbers for 1% of the linux userbase. Maybe my numbers are wrong as they're really just estimates, which is why I mentioned if only 1% were interested because at least then it'd be fair if I overestimated the userbase.

Regardless, still more than a few hundred people like the guy above mentioned. I think it's only fair Linux get some credit as it's used world wide by a lot of people, even if it's only a small percentage of the global PC market.

[wonderings]

9 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

I certainly hope so! I see no reason to insist that much against a Linux version from a private entity.

I don't think anyone is saying flat out no just because it is Linux, everything I read is reasons it does not make sense for Serif to develop for Linux. I don't think it is a good move for Serif, but think having more options for the consumer is not a bad thing. So yes Affinity for Linux would be great, just does not make a lot of sense for the company.

[msdobrescu]

1 minute ago, wonderings said:

I don't think anyone is saying flat out no just because it is Linux, everything I read is reasons it does not make sense for Serif to develop for Linux. I don't think it is a good move for Serif, but think having more options for the consumer is not a bad thing. So yes Affinity for Linux would be great, just does not make a lot of sense for the company.

Same thing.

[Old Bruce]

2 hours ago, MattyWS said:

I can probably do some basic maths here just out of curiosity,

How many of the quarter billion computers sold were replacement machines? Ditto for the five million that would be Linux. 

[Renzatic]

3 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

How many of the quarter billion computers sold were replacement machines? Ditto for the five million that would be Linux. 

I bet at least 10.

[wonderings]

23 hours ago, MattyWS said:

yes, one way or another you would likely have used linux be it chromeOS, Android, maybe you have cloud storage which is likely linux so it's used in the billions though obviously desktop users would be less. I can probably do some basic maths here just out of curiosity, if 250,000,000 computers are sold each year and about only 2% of those are going to linux users thats 5,000,000 linux users a year. Even if just 1% of that userbase wanted to use affinity photo (not including the rest of the suit) thats 50,000 sales a year, which would be at least £2,500,000 at £50 a sale each year. high numbers for 1% of the linux userbase. Maybe my numbers are wrong as they're really just estimates, which is why I mentioned if only 1% were interested because at least then it'd be fair if I overestimated the userbase.

Regardless, still more than a few hundred people like the guy above mentioned. I think it's only fair Linux get some credit as it's used world wide by a lot of people, even if it's only a small percentage of the global PC market.

Yes lots of devices are using Linux at it's base, but that is not really a Linux user that matters when talking about how big the Linux community is. I believe The Amazon Echo devices using Linux at it's core, so if we go by that then I have 8 or 9 Linux devices in my house. Linux yes, but not Linux desktop which is what developers care about. I have a feeling Affinity will never be coming to smart speakers, as great as it would be to verbally give instructions on how to design or setup forms. 

Some big "ifs" there when trying to break down numbers and say even 1% would buy a version of the Affinity apps. But let's say that they do sell 50,000 Linux versions a year for £2,500,000. That is not just pure profit of 2 and a half million. You have developers, support, advertising and everything else in the back end to promote and support Affinity on Linux. You start eating away at the 2.5 million pretty quickly when you are paying full time staff. Then the question is the growth, will there really be 50,000 new sales every year from Linux? It is a gamble and if it does not hit those numbers and is drastically lower you are now still paying to support Linux while making even less. I think the potential for return has to be much higher than 2.5 million. 

[MattyWS]

8 hours ago, wonderings said:

Yes lots of devices are using Linux at it's base, but that is not really a Linux user that matters when talking about how big the Linux community is. I believe The Amazon Echo devices using Linux at it's core, so if we go by that then I have 8 or 9 Linux devices in my house. Linux yes, but not Linux desktop which is what developers care about. I have a feeling Affinity will never be coming to smart speakers, as great as it would be to verbally give instructions on how to design or setup forms. 

Some big "ifs" there when trying to break down numbers and say even 1% would buy a version of the Affinity apps. But let's say that they do sell 50,000 Linux versions a year for £2,500,000. That is not just pure profit of 2 and a half million. You have developers, support, advertising and everything else in the back end to promote and support Affinity on Linux. You start eating away at the 2.5 million pretty quickly when you are paying full time staff. Then the question is the growth, will there really be 50,000 new sales every year from Linux? It is a gamble and if it does not hit those numbers and is drastically lower you are now still paying to support Linux while making even less. I think the potential for return has to be much higher than 2.5 million. 

Agreed, it's very hard to pin down how many linux desktop users there are and it's hard to pin down how much of a profit Serif would get. Though the amount of support is similar to every other platform (though if anything you'd get more bug reports from linux users). Doesn't seem to be an issue for other software developers that have Linux versions so I don't know why it'd be a problem specifically for Serif. In the end it costs money to develop software for any platform so it's up to serif what platforms they develop for, it's not up to me and it's not my problem either way. I'd prefer they made their software platform agnostic but it's Serifs project so eh.

It's pretty bizarre that Linux is only really missing a good photo editor, most other kinds of software is pretty much accounted for at least for me, as my job ranges from VFX to 3D art and 2D art which is a wide and vague range that you could probably just call the entire creative industry. Film, Games, Music, Software Development.. but not Photography? Why is that I wonder (genuinely, im not trying to make a point I am really curious why this gap exists).

[Pšenda]

On 6/20/2022 at 2:46 PM, MattyWS said:

Even if just 1% of that userbase wanted to use affinity photo (not including the rest of the suit) thats 50,000 sales a year

You have a mistake in your calculations again - wanting to use and buy is not the same. The license for Affinity applications is lifetime, so I can upgrade my desktop several times, but I still use the same license.

[wonderings]

16 hours ago, MattyWS said:

Agreed, it's very hard to pin down how many linux desktop users there are and it's hard to pin down how much of a profit Serif would get. Though the amount of support is similar to every other platform (though if anything you'd get more bug reports from linux users). Doesn't seem to be an issue for other software developers that have Linux versions so I don't know why it'd be a problem specifically for Serif. In the end it costs money to develop software for any platform so it's up to serif what platforms they develop for, it's not up to me and it's not my problem either way. I'd prefer they made their software platform agnostic but it's Serifs project so eh.

It's pretty bizarre that Linux is only really missing a good photo editor, most other kinds of software is pretty much accounted for at least for me, as my job ranges from VFX to 3D art and 2D art which is a wide and vague range that you could probably just call the entire creative industry. Film, Games, Music, Software Development.. but not Photography? Why is that I wonder (genuinely, im not trying to make a point I am really curious why this gap exists).

No 2 companies are alike, so saying others do it so why can't Serif is not all that valid. Who knows what they are like internally, expanding into new OS territory would mean new staff and no issues to confront for questionable gains.

I know Adobe looked into Linux some years ago, did some internal study and in the end opted out of developing for Linux. I personally think this speaks volumes (at least for the time, though I don't think there has been significant growth to change much now) as Adobe is a company with the money and the means to go into Linux. Serif is a mom and pop shop in comparison, both in staffing and revenue. If Adobe found it would not yield significant returns (my assumption) then I would say that probably goes for Serif as well, Serif who has less money to burn and less staff to take on the headaches that would come with a new OS.

 

[MattyWS]

5 hours ago, Pšenda said:

You have a mistake in your calculations again - wanting to use and buy is not the same. The license for Affinity applications is lifetime, so I can upgrade my desktop several times, but I still use the same license.

True it's certainly an unknown variable. Though thats kinda true about every OS and it's really a fault of Serif if thats an issue for them. I don't want Serif to go all subscription model on us though so I guess worst case is Serif have paid upgrades to whole number versions (affinity photo 2 comes out and it's a £50 purchase to get the new version until Affinity photo 3, however you can still use the old versions since you paid for the lifetime license). Or do what most software do and limit the seats on the license so people with 3 macs will have to pay for extra seats if they want to use affinity photo across all their macs...

[MattyWS]

19 hours ago, wonderings said:

No 2 companies are alike, so saying others do it so why can't Serif is not all that valid.

 

I disagree.. every company has to consider the pros and cons of platforms and how much money they need to spend on staffing. We've established Linux is used by a lot of the creative industry as well so I think it's fair to compare other companies that make creative softwares to this company that also makes creative softwares and just because Adobe does or doesn't do something doesn't mean anything more or less for Serif.

 

You say adobe don't develop for linux so why should serif? Well Adobe also specialize in 3D, game development, film production, music etc etc so if Serif are copying them then maybe they should waste money on making software like that too, right? Either they copy Adobe or they don't I don't think you can have it both ways. This may just be a difference in opinion but Serif have said they don't want to be compared to Adobe. I mean if we're going there then why even use Affinity products at all if Adobe exists? Serif *need* to do things differently to Adobe to stand out otherwise they may as well not exist.

The numbers of professionals who use Affinity Photo compared to Photoshop are probably on par with the numbers of people who use Windows or Linux. May as well expand into a new platform where Adobe doesn't exist.

Anyways this really comes down to opinions in the end. Other companies have thrived while making a Linux version of their software I don't think it will kill Serif, but ultimately it's their choice and heck, Serif already make choices that are extreme opposites of what I'd consider good (no good alpha/channel editing? No real support for channel packing? Basic stuff people need that serif claim no one needs and so they don't want to include it). Nothing I or anyone can do other than voice their wants and needs and it's on the whim of serif to decide to listen or not.

I dont think I or anyone else needs to convince the forum users here if Linux is a good idea. You guys are entitled to like Windows or Mac and nothing else but it's still super weird how passionate some people are about hating Linux for no gain.

[Old Bruce]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:46 AM, MattyWS said:

Even if just 1% of that userbase wanted to use affinity photo (not including the rest of the suit) thats 50,000 sales a year,

 

20 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

True it's certainly an unknown variable. Though thats kinda true about every OS and it's really a fault of Serif if thats an issue for them. I don't want Serif to go all subscription model on us though so I guess worst case is Serif have paid upgrades to whole number versions (affinity photo 2 comes out and it's a £50 purchase to get the new version until Affinity photo 3, however you can still use the old versions since you paid for the lifetime license). Or do what most software do and limit the seats on the license so people with 3 macs will have to pay for extra seats if they want to use affinity photo across all their macs...

You have still not addressed the mistake you make in your calculations. Five million new Linux boxes are not all new users. Some of those are replacement machines. You would need to know how many, is if just one percent or is it half of the machines. Don't guess and make assumptions without using error bars. So it is 49,999 or 25,000. Perhaps only 2,500 new sales for the five million machines. 

[Komatös]

And the bill has another fundamental flaw. None of the assumed 50,000 Linux users will purchase new programmes every year. Serif, however, depends on getting new customers. And in the desktop segment, these are mainly Windows and Mac users. 

[Old Bruce]

16 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

Serif already make choices that are extreme opposites of what I'd consider good (no good alpha/channel editing? No real support for channel packing? Basic stuff people need that serif claim no one needs and so they don't want to include it).

And again there is the solution of gathering like minded individuals and make a far superior graphics suite for Linux. Yammering on about how a not very good piece of software should be ported to Linux seems like a bad idea. Make something better.

[Old Bruce]

16 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Mathematics: tinyNumber/tinyNumber = tinyTinyNumber.

<Pedant on>

The correct name for the result is TeenyTinyNumber

<Pedant Off>

Proper terms are Small, Tiny, Teeny, Itsy, Itsy-bitsy and less than nothing.

[Kajac]

For some it is difficult to understand.

Even though the serif doesn't create a native version for linux.

They are fully capable of helping to make it work correctly in PlayOnLinux and Lutris!

The big question, how difficult is that? The costs would be low if we remember that it wouldn't be a native version, let alone need to advertise about it!

How difficult is it to give a little help to run the tool correctly?

I think if they are not going to help with at least minimal support, it would be better if they close this topic soon and make it clear that they have no interest in it working on linux, in any way!

[walt.farrell]

20 minutes ago, Kajac said:

I think if they are not going to help with at least minimal support, it would be better if they close this topic soon and make it clear that they have no interest in it working on linux, in any way!

They have already said they're not interested. And if they were to close this topic, someone would just start another one.

22 minutes ago, Kajac said:

They are fully capable of helping to make it work correctly in PlayOnLinux and Lutris!

The big question, how difficult is that? The costs would be low if we remember that it wouldn't be a native version, let alone need to advertise about it!

If they can make it work, the next question would be will it perform well enough. And the one after that will be can they keep it working with future updates, and how much effort will that take?

And if it doesn't perform well, or has bugs that don't happen in a supported environment, or breaks with a future update, how angry will the users be who paid for it because they'd heard it works, or tried it and found it worked. And then it didn't, one day.

[MattyWS]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

If they can make it work, the next question would be will it perform well enough. And the one after that will be can they keep it working with future updates, and how much effort will that take?

And if it doesn't perform well, or has bugs that don't happen in a supported environment, or breaks with a future update, how angry will the users be who paid for it because they'd heard it works, or tried it and found it worked. And then it didn't, one day.

Well this is literally the method used by Valve and all game developers who are making their games compatible via Proton(wine). It makes sense tbh, using a compatibility layer means needing less effort on the developers part to support the linux platform. The same goes for Mac with Rosetta.

[Kajac]

17 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

They have already said they're not interested. And if they were to close this topic, someone would just start another one.

But you might change your mind because this topic has been around for 5 years.

They are the owners of the forum, they can create a script or the moderation itself to close the linux topics as they already do!

17 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

If they can make it work, the next question would be will it perform well enough. And the one after that will be can they keep it working with future updates, and how much effort will that take?

And if it doesn't perform well, or has bugs that don't happen in a supported environment, or breaks with a future update, how angry will the users be who paid for it because they'd heard it works, or tried it and found it worked. And then it didn't, one day.

That's it... Today people are already able to make some older versions of Affinity Designer work through PlayOnLinux and Lutris, something that sometimes depending on the distro has bugs that the user can't solve, at that moment I would enter the SERIF with minimal support , as the problems I have are things I can't disable from within the tool.

So how difficult would it be to provide support?

Today heavy and problematic games like League OF Legends and GTA V run on linux, using PlayOnLinux and Lutris.

Valve has Proton which is a free project and does not create the game from scratch.

There are ways to make it work! But is it really that difficult to provide minimal support?

Edited June 23, 2022 by Kajac

[walt.farrell]

19 minutes ago, Kajac said:

But is it really that difficult to provide minimal support?

Yes, because there really is no such thing as "minimal" support. The users who paid for the applications will expect everything to work, with good performance. The need to keep the applications working will affect all future development, and the timing of that development, on the platforms that Serif really wants to support: Windows, Mac, and iPad.

[Kajac]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Yes, because there really is no such thing as "minimal" support. The users who paid for the applications will expect everything to work, with good performance. The need to keep the applications working will affect all future development, and the timing of that development, on the platforms that Serif really wants to support: Windows, Mac, and iPad.

I partially disagree with what you're saying.

SERIF is fully capable of providing support to run.

Even if it is using Linux X, with kernel X and with minimum hardware X.

PlayOnLinux and Lutris are here!

Regarding performance, there's nowhere to flee, both in windows and macOS have limitations, especially if we take into account the end user's hardware!

----------------------------

Anyway, for users who defend against, I still don't see any sense in it! Why don't you want it to run on linux?

[Kamei Kojirou]

3 minutes ago, Kajac said:

I partially disagree with what you're saying.

SERIF is fully capable of providing support to run.

Even if it is using Linux X, with kernel X and with minimum hardware X.

PlayOnLinux and Lutris are here!

Regarding performance, there's nowhere to flee, both in windows and macOS have limitations, especially if we take into account the end user's hardware!

----------------------------

Anyway, for users who defend against, I still don't see any sense in it! Why don't you want it to run on linux?

Support costs time, money, and resources. There is no such thing as minimal support. It's either supported or not. If people pay for a product they are going to rightfully expect it to work with full support. All that being said it needs to make sense business-wise to them. Trust me, it's not as easy as just lightly sorting it out on PlayonLinux and Lutris. There is a reason they have different versions and operating systems on listed on WINEHQ. This isn't just about hitting a few toggles and making it work on all Distros. WineHQ and Proton are working miracles but you need to keep in mind most games have somewhat similar requirements, which is why you are likely under the impression this would be a quick and easy process as support for games seems to quick these days. Support and workarounds will come eventually to Wine, but it will come from those communities, and likely not Serif. The reason Affinity line isn't working properly right now there some core dlls that aren't supported yet in WINE. I'm not defending against Affinity coming to Linux, but it needs to make sense. I say that as a full-time user of Linux and someone who has bought Photo, Designer, and Publisher and not using them in favor of native alternatives on Linux and would likely buy Affinity Photo again if it had full Linux support.

[walt.farrell]

37 minutes ago, Kajac said:

Why don't you want it to run on linux?

I would be happy for it to run on Linux, under Wine, if the Wine community can make it happen.