Affinity products for Linux

[wonderings]

11 hours ago, fde101 said:

Ok, a bunch of you seem to be misreading my comment, so it looks like I need to clarify.

I agree that Serif has made it clear that they are not interested in the Linux market at this time.

I was pointing out the fallacy in the comment by @Snapseed when he claimed that his links to other software do not pose a threat to Serif.

If people are able to do their work on Linux because of discovering that other software, they may no longer have reason to maintain their other operating system(s), which would mean they would have no reason to upgrade the Affinity software in the future.

Thus the links do potentially mean reducing the user base of the Affinity apps, though granted probably not by a significant amount, as users seeing those links who would benefit from them to that extent were probably able to discover reasonable alternatives on their own (thanks to Google, etc.).

I would agree that if there is a market for this software with Linux they would lose out if someone else came in with a product people were happy with, though you could say that it would be a loss for everyone, Adobe, Serif and anyone else who makes similar software that is not on Linux. Capitalism will find a way, so if there is money to be made someone will do it, of course on the other end if there is not a lot of money to be made then you won't ever get it. 

Can't see how they would reduce their users, they would just not grow with the Linux users. 

[PaulEC]

10 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

Given Linux is to desktop operating systems, what Affinity is to creative software,

I'm not sure what this statement is based on, but it seems to me to be a completely false comparison!

[fde101]

1 hour ago, wonderings said:

Can't see how they would reduce their users

Because of their pricing model it would not be immediate, but if someone stops using Affinity during the 1.x series because they transition to another product which is running under Linux, would they not be that much less likely to buy 2.0 when it is released?

[Ali]

1 hour ago, fde101 said:

Because of their pricing model it would not be immediate, but if someone stops using Affinity during the 1.x series because they transition to another product which is running under Linux, would they not be that much less likely to buy 2.0 when it is released?

For every one they lose to Linux OS, they will I am sure gain at least two using either Windows or MacOS. You win some, you lose some. I am with others who believe the Linux user base is not big enough to worry about. As I've said before, only Serif can decide if it is.

[B-Interactive]

19 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

Given Linux is to desktop operating systems, what Affinity is to creative software, a non-standard outlier

 

8 hours ago, PaulEC said:

I'm not sure what this statement is based on, but it seems to me to be a completely false comparison!

 

Happy to clarify @PaulEC 
I believe we can all agree Linux does not represent the standard desktop operating system used by the creative industry (or in general).
I suspect we could also agree the Affinity suite is not the standard software used by the creative industry (or in general).

One could then say, both Linux and the Affinity suite, are non-standard outliers in the creative industry.  They both share this characteristic.

[wonderings]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:44 AM, fde101 said:

Because of their pricing model it would not be immediate, but if someone stops using Affinity during the 1.x series because they transition to another product which is running under Linux, would they not be that much less likely to buy 2.0 when it is released?

that comes with a big "if". I don't think people are ditching Windows or Mac in droves for Linux, it is just not happening. 

I would also question how important the software they use is if they would move to a computer that does not support the software they want/need to use. To me that is putting the cart before the horse. I need Adobe CC, I make my living with Indesign, Illustrator and Photoshop. If they stopped making a Mac version I would switch to whatever OS they were still supporting. Albeit I would not be happy as I do like the Mac OS for work, but the OS is secondary to me, it is the epps themselves that are the main tool I need, if it sits on a Mac OS or Windows GUI it ultimately does not matter save for personal preference. 

[B-Interactive]

15 hours ago, wonderings said:

that comes with a big "if". I don't think people are ditching Windows or Mac in droves for Linux, it is just not happening. 

The qualifier "in droves" brings to mind  fanboys queuing for the newest model iPhone... which I don't think is being suggested as the case with Linux.  That aside, I think the statement is reasonable.  Particularly in western countries, Microsoft and Apple dominate mind-share in the desktop market.  It's taken for granted by most consumers that a new PC will either be Mac or Windows.

It's interesting to look further abroad to other countries, such as India where adoption of Linux desktop apparently surpasses OSX.  Perhaps no big deal though, we're still only talking 3.92% market share... in a population of 1.4 billion persons!  Do the admittedly crude maths on that, and we have a much greater sum than the entire population of North America.  India is not an insignificant presence in the IT market, being a global hub of IT skills and developers.

 

15 hours ago, wonderings said:

I would also question how important the software they use is if they would move to a computer that does not support the software they want/need to use. To me that is putting the cart before the horse. I need Adobe CC...

Agreed.  If we're using Adobe CC as the example, then the options are very clear, there's really no way around needing Windows or OSX.

I'm primarily a developer.  Linux is built for development, with the base system designed and ready to build applications from source.  Likewise, the custom applications I build do well to run on Linux/BSD, so it makes sense to be developing, building and testing things on a similar system to what they'll be deployed to.

As a developer, I receive assets from graphic designers, which I need to then prepare for use in the applications I'm building.  I'd like to suggest that as a developer, expressing a need for Linux support of Affinity Photo, is not putting the cart before the horse.  It's pointing to a gap that goes unfilled, perhaps unrecognised, in this market.

Stack Overflow, which I'm sure any developer is truly familiar with, in their latest survey has Linux being used by 25.32% of developers, just ahead of OSX.

JetBrains, creators of industry respected development tools, has Linux being used by 47% of developers, again ahead of OSX and not all that far off from Windows.

[B-Interactive]

Thanks @LondonSquirrel.  I knew the sum was crude, but that's much further off than intended, so I appreciate you correcting that.

[wonderings]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:20 AM, IanSG said:

I've no experience of working with "creatives", but is that generaly true?  Back in the day I found customers resistant to carrying out upgrades, on the principal that "if it aint broke don't fix it".  

From my experience it is and it is virtually gone now with CC. You would have shops using one version of Adobe, design houses uses another (usually the latest) which would in turn cause issues unless the print shop paid and did the upgrade themselves. There was lots of fragmentation with people stuck in various versions of Adobe. On top of that you had a dying standard Quark and a small few using Corel to muddy up the waters. Now everyone is on CC, well everyone making a living with Adobe is. When I get a file I never question if I can open it, do they have a newer version then I. When I help a client out with the software we are on the same page, using the exact same versions. This is HUGE. Affinity does not have this issue now, but a few versions in and you will find people using different versions as some will not want to pay to upgrade and may not need or it just don't want to spend more cash. This could lead to issues across different versions of the software and create serious headaches. 

[MattyWS]

There are a few people at my studio still using photoshop CS6, so for sure not everyone is using the latest CC version.

It seems Affinity devs aren't looking at Linux at all. It's a shame but it is what it is. There are and will be more alternatives. Tbh the devs here have always been quite abrasive when it comes to feedback/requests anyway (no offense devs, I don't been abrasive as in rude, more just lots of friction against feedback). It also seems like a lot of the people who use Affinity don't want anyone else to request features or give feedback, so much so that they'd be willing to go on to these forums and troll any request that isn't theirs. Very bizarre behaviour.

The sad part is Linux is in need of a good photo editing software and Affinity is a great alternative to photoshop that competed directly with photoshop in a market dominated by adobe, Linux and affinity would go well together for this reason. A good OS with good software and not as much competition (personal attack moderated by staff).
Anyways, Gimp 3.2 is where things will get a bit more interesting, for now I have Substance Designer/Painter Darktable and Krita and just about anything else I can use my ipad for. I won't be going back to Windows or Mac for my own work/private life so Affinity is getting extremely obscure use from me. That said, I'd still buy it again if it came to Linux as I'm sure a lot of people would, because Affinity Suite would be the best solution on Linux. Given it's taken years to get TGA file format into Affinity and even longer just to sort out channel editing workflows (which still hasn't had any love) I don't expect to see Affinity on Linux any time soon. Serif's sticking to their target audience, which is apparently straggler photographers that don't want to pay lots of money for photoshop, and no one else. Always seems strange to me that Serif doesn't want any more of a target audience than that but it can't be helped.

[IanSG]

11 hours ago, MattyWS said:

It also seems like a lot of the people who use Affinity don't want anyone else to request features or give feedback, so much so that they'd be willing to go on to these forums and troll any request that isn't theirs. Very bizarre behaviour.

Not bizarre at all - 3 points spring to mind;

A number of feature requests are accompanied by overblown descriptions of the benefits to be gained / catastrophes to be avoided if only... 

TANSTAAFL - even granting that the request is a good idea, implementing it isn't cost free and not everyone thinks it's worth it.

Posts which adopt an agressive tone and include ad hominem attacks on specific forum members and anyone else who disagrees.  It's not a logical reason for pushing back but it's human and should be obvious to anyone trying to present a case.

[wonderings]

On 1/6/2022 at 9:28 PM, B-Interactive said:

The qualifier "in droves" brings to mind  fanboys queuing for the newest model iPhone... which I don't think is being suggested as the case with Linux.  That aside, I think the statement is reasonable.  Particularly in western countries, Microsoft and Apple dominate mind-share in the desktop market.  It's taken for granted by most consumers that a new PC will either be Mac or Windows.

It's interesting to look further abroad to other countries, such as India where adoption of Linux desktop apparently surpasses OSX.  Perhaps no big deal though, we're still only talking 3.92% market share... in a population of 1.4 billion persons!  Do the admittedly crude maths on that, and we have a much greater sum than the entire population of North America.  India is not an insignificant presence in the IT market, being a global hub of IT skills and developers.

I wonder if the adoption of Linux in counties like India has anything to do with the incredibly low average yearly income. Google has it at $1,670 USD a year. The base MacBook Pro is $1658 USD in India according to Apples website. So a years wages for most people. That is a considerable cost. Windows will obviously be cheaper but still with the incredibly low wages, even a license of Windows is going to be pricey. This also ignores the very large black market of cracked software you can buy in markets. So is Linux growing because it is a preferred OS or is it growing in India because it is a free OS that can run on really cheap hardware. 

Again going with results from google, the average IT specialist is in a much larger tax bracket but they on average are making under $20,000 USD a year. 

[Anon172]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:31 AM, LondonSquirrel said:

Linux is in need of this and that and something else, and so it has always been. There's always 'just one more thing' with Linux. It's an itch that will not be scratched. Even when it has been provided in the past (better development tools - Kylix, graphics software - Corel, word processors - WordPerfect, etc. etc. etc.), it has never been enough to satisfy the Linux people. They always want something else.

I am not convinced that Linux is a good OS. It is good at server side things, as it is basically a clone of UNIX which used to own that market. So that's not a surprise. Even the system calls have the same names as the UNIX ones they copied/borrowed/imitated! Linux doesn't bring anything special to the desktop market, which is the only market relevant for Serif. Linux has the truly horrible Gnome 3 desktop which upset all the people who used to like Gnome 2. Anyway, Linux is not an OS. It is just a kernel, which by itself is of no use to anyone without all the tools and services needed to provide a desktop OS.

FreeBSD is better at server side things under high load than Linux, so I'm not sure why Linux gets all the exposure it does. And Solaris was way better than Linux - I know, I've seen the source code. Solaris had thorough instrumentation all the way through, Linux doesn't even get close to it.

The desktop market for Linux is insignificant at present. It has been insignificant for 20+ years. Maybe in another 20. I've heard it and watched it, and it's always the same. Oooo Windows Vista upset a lot of people, they will move to Linux! They didn't. Oooo Windows 8 upset a lot of people, they will move to Linux. They didn't. Oooo Windows 10 upset a lot of people, they will move to Linux. They didn't. And so on.

Lmao someone made a meme about this: https://mastodon.social/@vl1/107631412188055428

[MattyWS]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:31 AM, LondonSquirrel said:

Linux is not an OS. It is just a kernel,

🙄 This is literally meme. We all know Linux is the kernel, but everyone knows what we're talking about when we refer to linux as an OS. It's right up there with the "btw I use Arch" meme. Moving on; 

it's probably unlikely to make a difference but has anyone tried Affinity on the latest Wine version?

https://news.itsfoss.com/wine-7-0-release/

I'd try it myself but I'm away from my pc for a while, but still kinda curious. =D

[macdabby]

On 10/1/2017 at 10:56 AM, JFisher said:

Hi corsseir,

Welcome to the forum.

This is something that has been requested before but we have no plans to develop Affinity apps for Linux i'm afraid.
 

I know it's been requested ... many times by many people ... so the real question is why don't you have plans to develop it? And what will it take for you to make plans to develop it?  There's really no competition on linux. You killed it on windows and mac where adobe was king. What do we have to do? I abandoned apple and i'm happily using linux for everything. My life has been so much happier and my work has been so much more productive. Except for this one little thing I can't do. PLEEEEAAASE! What do we have to do?

[macdabby]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:45 PM, MattyWS said:

🙄 This is literally meme. We all know Linux is the kernel, but everyone knows what we're talking about when we refer to linux as an OS. It's right up there with the "btw I use Arch" meme. Moving on; 

it's probably unlikely to make a difference but has anyone tried Affinity on the latest Wine version?

https://news.itsfoss.com/wine-7-0-release/

I'd try it myself but I'm away from my pc for a while, but still kinda curious. =D

I haven't but I've heard it's the same no good. i heard someone once got it to run with lutris (a gaming platform based on wine) but I had no luck with that either.

[macdabby]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:45 AM, LondonSquirrel said:

Software piracy is rife in India. And it's understandable if you look past the headlines for two seconds. When Adobe/Whoever reckons they 'lose' $x billion a year due to software piracy, they're not really losing it because a very large number of people who use cracked software would never pay £20,£30,£40,£50 a month anyway. It's not 'lost' revenue, it's revenue they didn't and (and would never) get.

A bus ride in India is costs about 10 pence. Compare that to London or New York. If £40 a month is a lot to people in the UK, enough that they use cheaper options, consider what £40 a month is to somebody in India.

I don't like software piracy, but looking beyond the attention grabbing headlines reveals an interesting picture.

I agree. I used to pirate everything as a kid because I had no money. Now that I have money I'm happy to buy stuff. But even then, I couldn't justify adobe's ridiculous pricing schemes. That's when I switched to Affinity. Then I found out it was a much better app anyway (easier, faster, less buggy). Now I own like 3 licenses and I'd happily buy another one for linux and probably more. I'd even be happy to pay for occasional updates, which Affinity is generous enough not to charge for. That includes for my contractors in india and philippines who do a lot of my graphics work. But i have abandoned apple and linux desktop is getting so much more stable and fluent.

[PaulEC]

2 hours ago, macdabby said:

so the real question is why don't you have plans to develop it?

I can't really speak for Serif, but, as has been pointed out many times:

Firstly, Linux has a very small market share. Of those people who do use Linux, very few are likely to have need of / want to purchase the affinity apps. 

Secondly, Serif are already developing three apps on three platforms. The vast majority of users, I am sure, would rather the existing apps were improved, (there are many outstanding bug reports and requests for new features,) before Serif start developing their apps for another platform.

It's totally unrealistic to expect Serif to invest large amounts of time and money based on the "build it and they will come" argument; the simple fact is that it makes no financial sense whatsoever to waste limited resources on developing the Affinity apps for such a small market. A (comparative) handful of people repeating the same things over and over again is unlikely to make any difference!

[Bez Bezson]

I'd be happy with it working under either Wine or Lutris, that'd be enough for me to buy licenses for all three products.

Surely that'd be much less work than a native version.

[GuernseyMan]

Working under Wine would be nice. I would welcome it.

BUT

It's never going to be in a commercial company's interest to tout "works with Wine" as a selling point. Imagine the flood of animosity toward Serif if they broke Wine compatibility with an update. "I bought Affinity Designer to use on WINE with FreeSpire, now with update 1.9.24 it's stopped working. What are you going to do about it?".

If they can't use it as a selling point then why would they waste resources on it?

When I started in the IT business my boss told me on the first day "Use the OS you need to run the software you want to, don't run an OS then try to find software for it". I believed him then and I've seen nothing in the last 40 years to change my mind!

[Old Bruce]

2 hours ago, GuernseyMan said:

When I started in the IT business my boss told me on the first day "Use the OS you need to run the software you want to, don't run an OS then try to find software for it". I believed him then and I've seen nothing in the last 40 years to change my mind!

Not an IT Boss but the same good advice.

[icetnet]

I know... This has been beaten to death for more than 5 years.... However, there are some assumptions that are inaccurate...

History: I use the Affinity Suite on Windows (VM) and MacOS and have for a while. I'd love to use it on Linux as well.
It is true that the majority of Linux use is server and the main slice of that usage does not employ a GUI interface. The other side... the Desktop side... Well, yes, it contains a LOT (probably majority) of people that want something for nothing and that leaves a horrible taste in developer/organization mouths. I get it.

Yet, I, and quite a few of my peers do not fall into this category. We are looking for stability as a baseline... I've been MacOS for a long time, however, now moving the base OS for the third time due to hardware adoptions changes, this will be my third time having to adopt different tools to do my same job in the last 12-15 years. The reasonably unreasonable will tell me "get with the program... change is the only constant". I get it. Unfortunately, everyone wants to make money... gobs of it. I get that too, but, arguably the major version costs and especially the subscription fees actually cost so much more than needed. Thus, back to stability... The standard assumption in looking for Linux software is that I want FOSS. No, not necessarily. I want something that I can incorporate into my organizational tools long term. I've purchased CAD, Email, Calendar, Virtualization, and other software/tools for my system (Dual Xeon, 128G RAM, Radeon RX560, etc.) Not a gamer machine, but perfect for the Development, DevOps, and Engineering stuff that I do.
The reason that stability, longevity matters is automation. Software that constantly changes core functions becomes painful in the continuous improvement and integration scheme of things. Collaboration and sharing are also important, as I would never want to mandate what OS my peers/employees use. Thus, IF someone would build this, and NOT charge astronomical fees (but a similarly priced product), I would buy it and I would definitely appreciate it.

I get it, it is hard. It is one of the reasons that Java was created and also one of the reasons that the Java experience has failed. BUT, the dream is still alive, and I'm getting crotchety in my old-ish age. I'm tired of the lame excuses and name calling... I have NO problem with "We have no plans to support", but 'MoveOnPeople' and the other agitators here really have no business making any attempt to speak for real business.

I'll keep looking for a true cross-platform suite of tools. When I find it... if I can afford it, I will buy it and incorporate it into my workflow. Until then, un-moderated agitators continue to dampen my desire to use the products that they "represent". Thanks for letting me rant.

[Snapseed]

On 2/10/2022 at 3:25 PM, Bez Bezson said:

I'd be happy with it working under either Wine or Lutris, that'd be enough for me to buy licenses for all three products.

Surely that'd be much less work than a native version.

The separate developers behind Photoscape and Sagelight don't make Linux versions of their softwares but they do try to ensure that they work well with Wine. Indeed, Photoscape works so well with Wine that it is now an official Ubuntu Snap.

Given Linux's current modest desktop market share, it might not be economically viable to develop Linux versions of the Affinity range at this time but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask Serif Europe to at least investigate whether they could consider trying to make their products work well with Wine/CrossOver.

[MattyWS]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:26 PM, LondonSquirrel said:

The problems are partly technical, which can be overcome. It's a matter of spending time making things work on a different OS.

But the main problem as you wrote is the 'modest desktop market share'. The Linux desktop market share has barely changed in 20 years. Despite outright misleading and wrong information from some people in the Linux community to the effect that Linux has a greater market share on the desktop than macOS, Linux desktop usage hovers around 1% at most.

talk about misinformation then start throwing numbers that are off. I'll grant you that the linux userbase is small still but it's apparently more than double the amount you claim and almost the same as the ChromeOS userbase. As of writing Linux takes up 2.19% of the market share while MacOS takes up 15.85%.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

[GuernseyMan]

If you use these stats, which I'll take as read, then Serif have a product which is usable on 91.35% of all desktops by supporting two versions. If they supported a third, Linux, that could rise to 93.54%. Even more if the third OS was Chrome!

Linux has increased from 1.91% market share to 2.19% market since 2012. That's a 14% uptake or about 1.3% per annum compounded over 10 years.

I'm a Linux fanboy and really enjoy using it but I have to admit, it's not gone anywhere in the last ten years and I don't blame Serif for not getting involved in it.

I'll continue to play around with Linux and do real work on Windows.