Affinity products for Linux

[SrPx]

Quote

No, If pros could have their software on Linux they would use it, i'm sure

Indeed, I would, trust me. 

But it would need that I wouldn't loose more time solving drivers / color calibration issues, too, not only the available graphic software being at least at a 85% - 90 % of what Windows apps offer (if they are not critical gaps, I usually can fill those with workarounds). I have acted as a sort of tech support for both systems (sth I have not done with Mac OS, I don't really know it, am a basic user there). And due to how is all the commercial / company world focused on mostly Windows, it ended always making me loose more time with the Linux new users. In fact, happens also when tried to do advanced use in my graphic workflows of my own, despite being an advanced Linux user (even more counting on what a lot of Linux users know today about their system... )

But I have been waiting for that maybe since Slackware first versions. Been many years ago in the other side of the debate, indeed! .. The good thing is: whenever that might happen, I have already been familiarized deeply with the OS, would be no drama. Till then, for a freelancer every bit of time and energy means everything, can't add more obstacles, already too many (often of non tech nature). But yeah, I would love to. The issue is that I see that moment a bit far, yet.

So, yeah. Despite what it seems, I look forward to that day, too. Even so, I might not ditch Windows by then, because I doubt there would disappear compatibility issues, as closed world defends itself pretty well. But my main would be then a Linux machine. I have no emotions against an OS, is practical sense, only. So is why I would be happy to have the 3 OSes in 3 machines in the room, quite a dream. Quite a complete environment to use the best tools of every area....If I don't have it so is just for the time (in maintenance, etc) and money involved to have that.

[toltec]

5 hours ago, NNois said:

 

No, If pros could have their software on Linux they would use it, i'm sure
 

No, absolutely not!

Linux users always seem to to get obsessed with the OS. The OS is such a small part of the overall picture.

Professionals need turn-key solutions with professional dealer facilities and on site support. No professional wants to spend hours trying to sort out a driver or installing patches.

Every professional I knew (print and prepress trade) leased machines with professional, on site support. The overal cost (even for Macs) was so small compared to a big printing press, reliability and productivity was what mattered. Not saving a bit of money on a quirky geeks machine.

Pros need to concentrate on what they do best, making money, not fiddling with an OS.

Linux is not remotely close to meeting a professionals needs. Sorry.

Well apart from a very few trades, obviously.

[msdobrescu]

Indeed, this is my issue: time and energy spent to solve OS-related problems.
Lately, just lately, I had to spend more time with Windows to harness it at update time. Somehow it broke in every aspect, so I had to do one of the two below:
- re-install it completely + my software of interest re-installed and reconfigured
- spend weeks to find out why it can't go further, other people on the Internet just complaining of the same issue, but having no fix yet
That along with the OS collecting data on me, but that data seeming to be related to something else than finding out the cause for the crash.
And it decides to upgrade and tries for at least an hour, then rolling back again and again (luckily being able to restore the previous state).
Next time I won't have the same recipe to fix it, I know, lately, each time was a different source.
Now it was the color calibration software + grub. The cause is pretty generically described to the user by some hex code that means one of a few tens causes, still not all included.
This was a nightmare.
Ahh, I've forgot, different issues on different machines for the same upgrade. On one machine was nice: it has wiped all the drivers only! But worked after re-installing them.
On the third, it messed up the network at some low level . Was hopeless, we had to re-install it. And so on.

On Linux it takes time if you don't know how to do. I have maintained a Sabayon Linux since version 5 and upgraded successfully once a week. Sure, I've had some problems too, but worked to restore it each time in hours, with the community support too.

Ideally for me is to have one OS with my (few) softwares. I don't work as @SrPx with so many. BTW, mine is a i7 920.

[R C-R]

4 minutes ago, toltec said:

5 hours ago, NNois said:

No, If pros could have their software on Linux they would use it, i'm sure

No, absolutely not!

I think it is quite obvious that some "pros" (however you want to define that term) would use Linux versions of the Affinity apps & some would not. The issue -- the only one that really matters -- is if enough would buy & use them to make it worth it to Serif to develop & support those versions. Twenty more pages of heartfelt assurances from Linux users that enough would is not going to change anything. That is because it is based on inferences & guesswork rather than hard data & market research, & because nobody outside of the company has any way of knowing what it would take to do that.

Everything else, including which OS various people like best or have had the most or least trouble with, is irrelevant.

[toltec]

47 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

Indeed, this is my issue: time and energy spent to solve OS-related problems.
 

Yes, I know Windows 10 is crap. I am dreading the day I can’t use my favourite win7 machine. I have a Win 10 machine, also an i7 but I only connect it to the internet when I have to and dread the regular screw-updates. 

What I was talking about though was mainly Mac based with professional supplying company support. If a machine stops working, call for help. There are plenty of companies specialising in that. They cost a bit more but it’s well worth it.

When I was working, I always had two machines of each type. If one stopped working, I swapped over and called the engineer. I could have fixed it myself most of the time but it was more cost efficient to pay for support. Support was included in the lease so it had tax benefits too. No tax benefits for me spending half a day fixing it myself 

Several days fiddling with Linux and getting nowhere (even with help) put me off the idea. As I said, Linux is too far away from being of any use to 99.9% of “pros”. Except maybe a few clever types like @SrPx 

[SrPx]

Maybe I am more geeky (for the average pixel pusher) than clever.... ;)(  ( but thanks!    ). Not too geeky, anyway. 

It also goes to the OS issues you are more used to face. I was for very long time having multi boot with several Linux distros and Windows. I yet remember the pain when StartX would give probs (indeed, I used to always start in console, to have more control) , or issues with partitions, drivers, etc. This was horrid back in the day. It is today if you jump into an issue for which is not expected a basic user to fall on. When this happens in Windows, there's always some graphical system utility, third party or native, is usually dumb easy to fix.

Yeah, few Windows users love the Win 10 thing. Win 8.1 was really amazing, if you ask me.  There's a bunch of workarounds to avoid the automatic updates at any time, one of them is disabling the update service (you can also edit the registry, purchase certain version of Windows, etc). Ain't free of issues, and you'll have to at some point install everything, but still, you can choose  the moment. I (kind of) maintain 4 family (several, remotely) members Win 10s, (never have show-stopping issues) and mine is a 7 ...but don't laugh: Not due to telemetry fears or usage disliking, is just that I don't have -yet- any solid reason to "upgrade" to 10. I (*very*) initially had this stupid hope that 10 would be such a wreckage as it was Win Me (Millennium) or Vista (XP and 7 being among the most loved ones, even among some linux people) , and MS would have no other way that trash it or run fast to get sth really good again. Nope. Win 10 is here to stay, is what is gonna be from now on, unless some of the other two (Mac OS or Linux) really do some drastic change, but there's no sign of really sth ground breaking coming from there, as to change the inertia. Also, Windows 10 is considered now a service. And a way for them to get income is through telemetry, indeed. Seems licenses selling is not what moves 'em anymore. The cloud, telemetry...that sort of thing seems where MS is interested, now. But that might be a shoot in the foot... We'll see.

Don't you think for a second that I like that matter: I hate it. But at the end of the day, what you can't afford is stop working for some blocking lack in the OS for graphics usage, or apps lack (is not just PS...there's a lot of pro apps (Windows only or Win/mac only) I am required to master, in its updated versions, whenever I get into any game job offer, for example). Maybe is me, that I am too used to Windows,  but I always find a lacking driver (let's face it, the difference in support from vendors is enormous   ), and always can calibrate the machine, or solve any issue, and about one of the strongest points against Windows, I often can remove a virus without even anti virus (99.9% of the times is a friend/family machine: the average user don't even know how to make a safe use of their system ), do even crazier stuff. Even repair any machine of a friend remotely. Linux flexibility goes a much longer way, still, there's not there a practicable path to engage a lot of gigs for a graphics professional, with the available software (unless you restrict a lot to certain type of projects), and while I know, I think, pretty well the system, desktop and console fronts, I still loose a lot more time doing stuff there (when some thing is lacking, or some issue arises) than in any Windows. I usually can fix it, but takes more time. This is kind of a problem.

But I for one am optimistic. It'll get there, or that's my hope. It might become even a  need, if MS Windows keeps going the way of the dodo. Doing an update that suddenly breaks a lot of pen tablets drivers, this is not sth we should asume as normal... and we do. Again, because there's no clear path yet in Linux.

I mean, don't expect the average Joe/Jane that handles well their PS or AI (or hopefully, Affinity) to know how to use make to install some stuff. Or even an apt-get,  or to use the console for whatever, (or be aware that sudo is not the name of an exotic drink) . Easy peasy right? Well, for you. You'd be amazed. Never underestimate how lost can feel an user when is asked to do sth with what has no familiarity, at all (in the same line, I have seen a Linux user desperately lost trying to use Winzip, and another unsuccessfully trying to just open a console window in Win 7 ). My sister is a bit tinfoil hat type, and without me telling her anything bout telemetry , she read that from the rain of complaints on inet, and did run to install a Mint. It was fine for some months indeed! I was surprised. But at some point, sth broke. She's kind of geeky, at her level. Well, can't remember now what was (she did not allow me to go to her place and try to fix it, sure it was some nonsense!), but sth happened, that went from loving it, to not willing to see any form of Linux, EVER, literal words now that am fixing her laptop again and (funny, now that I think) asked her if should I create a multiboot, put there a Mint or ubuntu + her Win 10.   

The majority of people needs it easy. And to some point it makes A LOT OF SENSE. Why would anyone want the OS eat a lot of time and energy?. We should not want that in linux, neither in Windows. What you experienced in Win 10 is extremely similar to what a lot of newbie users suffer in linux. Even if being kind of long time operators (but not to even slightly deep level. Which am afraid is a lot of the current user base). I always think of home VCRs, game consoles, that kind of thing. Everyone ends up handling well those. Well, not so limited, but OSes must be aware with the kind of users they are dealing with, in the big numbers. I would hate if I can't do a grep in Linux, but there should be a way to graphics professionals to not need to be geeky about the OS to use it professionally. (IMO, a very basic use (browsing, etc) is WAY more possible now, but Linux is still loosing users with those situations (IMO, my family members, the public department cases I've known of, first hand might be not  just random cases ). A regular user, tho, have it easier now than a pro. To me for that now Linux makes a lot of sense. Still, the games scenario rules a lot, too. And there are a lot of probs there, as well. (directx is MS's, so, there we have it, another barrier  .   )

What I think we should not expect is, recognizing these issues as a first step to solve any user problem (like anything in life), expect the pro graphic users, or Serif, to completely carry this weight, launch sth to sell with all the issues, and take the heat, when there are other parts involved that should solve these matters, first (and definitely, several of them is not Linux or its community's fault. But there's stuff that can be addressed by them, sadly is related to a mindset. Blender 2.8 is going to be prepared for that (the newbie user). So that line of work is my hope, as is a sample that perhaps the mindset is finally changing... Is not about targeting me or you. It's the numbers. ).

Quote

On Linux it takes time if you don't know how to do

This describes exactly the problem. You were motivated to go the extra mile (I was already in the 90s). The majority of population, specially graphic or etc pros as they have no time to even breath, do not want to learn sth hard to deal with as the starting point, in just the OS. Is a starting barrier that very few will have the patience to go through. Specially when they don't detect this in the other OSes. This is exactly what must be changed. In a way, it has been started with the desktops, but still there's a way ahead.

[msdobrescu]

The issue here is related to cutting costs. This is unfair for the employees and for the consumer. It looks simply greed.

If you have a new system, you have no choice than install Windows 10, because there are no more drivers for an older Windows. While it is not directly Microsoft's fault or Linux creators fault, the hardware producers offer the drivers in limited flavours. So we chose Windows 10. Lately, it seems that telemetry is the main business. You can see it everywhere. As a small buyer, I feel betreated when Windows crashes in such hard way and the solutions are not even present on the WEB. I know people working at Microsoft in US telling me the retail license of WIndows is expensive even to them (was about 300$ at the time). This is the issue now, largely, not the "not loving MS" thing.

But, when you deal with computers, education is mandatory. You have to become a geek. There is no other way. Why? Because using Windows or Linux you must understand what you are dealing with. Does grep sound geek? Or using a console? Every field has its technical requirements. Think of using Illustrator for vector graphics. It is known that open paths are an issue for printing. So you have to run a script in order to check and ifx it. Depending on the OS, you might need javascript or applescript. Here we go...

I have 20 years in IT, professionally, I can tell I have seen all kinds of fields, from car producing to web. Everywhere you use a computer, you have to learn more.

I have not mentioned MacOS. Well, they are a bit clever than others, they did a pretty stable OS, something to be installed/upgraded and then ready to do the job. How did they do it? They have chosen a few configs, asked for their requirements to be fulfilled thoroughly , so they can rely on the hardware. And the hardware is cream. This comes with the high price. If somebody buys the hardware and builds a PC, it would cost almost the same. That makes it hard to buy for many. For myself is too expensive, but I have only one thing to complain about - the telemetry.

Back to the geek thing, some might ask for multimedia in his home. You like to have some NAS and your music these to be available in your home and also movies. Despite of standards, the players, TVs, etc. are always partially compatible and make your life a hell. Add a Windows to suddenly change samba behavior and takes over to netowrk, and you say good bye to your comfort. Man, are those guys aliens or just incompetents? Or do they spy you through the camera just to make fun of you and have a good laugh? You go and ask the multimedia companies to fix your players and stuff and they will say to you to buy another thing, while the hardware works, but only the software is the problem. They don't care, you have already paid them, so they don't care.

Now, back to Linux, I lately have a hobby, I build Lego Technic toys with my son. I have needed a good modelling CAD software and ended using LDCad, which comes in Windows and Linux. It uses 3D acceleration. I have run it even under Wine and works just the same. So it is possible.

[toltec]

39 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

Everywhere you use a computer, you have to learn more.

Why?

If you are a taxi driver, do you have to learn how to fix the car?

Anyway, these days cars are so complex and so emission controlled, you can't. You need to plug a computer with dealer supplied software into it.

The same if you are a farmer. What farmer would service a new tractor or harvester?

Why should an accountant, a lawyer or a graphic designer need to spend weeks learning how to service his computer?

It's just that some computer users are geeks and think like geeks. No offence 

[msdobrescu]

Because you have to. "Have to" means - as far as I know English, not being a native speaker, obviously - "you are obliged", "you must do it forcibly, like it or not". I know it isn't natural, actually, as software developer, is the main sin of my fellow programmers, due to the costs. So those costs are transferred to the user, more and more consistently. It is not profitable for the softweare maker, in the end. This is another vicious circle. Still, users must suffer nowadays, when they should not. Would you pay $1500 for a bullet proof OS license? Years ago, the budget spent by Microsoft for a single small patch, known as KB12345678 or similar, was of $100,000. They release so many, imagine the costs.

Yet, while is true for the car, was so handy when you could fix your car. It is not the emission, it is the sophistication needed to optimize it. Some features are too geek also, I would love to have a simple stereo instead of a smartphone in my car, I find it crazy to flip-flip-flip just to adjust the temperature. But you still could add yourself liquids for breaks, cooling, screen. You must check your oil level, and must do it properly. You must be able to fix a tire or to adjust the proper pressure. This is overwhelming for many too. But in the mountains, here, we still have roads where there is no mobile signal and cars are rare, it is safe to know to handle some small issues yourself.

[msdobrescu]

To reflect the lack of logic I face lately, I can tell you that I meet people here buying Xbox, you can purchase it here, you can purchase some cards to buy software for it, mainly games and music. Then you face a problem: you can buy that card, make the account, but you can't purchase. What they instruct you to do: you should ask to get an UK IP. I'll skip the part that many don't know what an IP is. While they are not in UK, it is an illegal request to the ISP. Then they ask you to make an account where you falsely declare you live in UK, some fake UK address. Are you kidding me? Also, the Xbox can store on a hard drive multimedia OR games, not both. And you start to dig to fix the issue etc.. Why do they ask you to do some illegal stuff, an workaround, actually, instead of fixing their system? How could I trust such company, especially for business?

I start to feel that when the founder of the company leaves, they start doing crazy things

[NNois]

13 hours ago, toltec said:

No, absolutely not!

Professionals need turn-key solutions with professional dealer facilities and on site support. No professional wants to spend hours trying to sort out a driver or installing patches.

Every professional I knew (print and prepress trade) leased machines with professional, on site support. The mind! cost (even for Macs) was so small compared to a big printing press, reliability and productivity was what mattered. Not saving a bit of money on a quirky geeks machine.

Pros need to concentrate on what they do best, making money, not fiddling with an OS.

Linux is not remotely close to meeting a professionals needs. Sorry.

Well apart from a very few trades, obviously.

4

You're completely out of your mind! you're talking pros without any ITs in their compagny it's unrealistic. That's not the case for every Graphic company I worked for.

Nearly all Corporate managed by ITs tends to be pushed on Linux! In general, here in Europe Starting from Governments, Shopping malls, big Facilities, every ultra professional users are on Linux it's a necessity if they want to be in control and secure.
I can assure you nearly every Indy Artist with 5y+ of experience I know have plans to move on Linux, some did, some not, waiting for more software support.

[toltec]

1 hour ago, NNois said:

You're completely out of your mind! you're talking pros without any ITs in their compagny it's unrealistic. That's not the case for every Graphic company I worked for.

Nearly all Corporate managed by ITs tends to be pushed on Linux! In general, here in Europe Starting from Governments, Shopping malls, big Facilities, every ultra professional users are on Linux it's a necessity if they want to be in control and secure.
I can assure you nearly every Indy Artist with 5y+ of experience I know have plans to move on Linux, some did, some not, waiting for more software support.

Well, I can't talk about the rest of Europe but I can talk about  30 experience years working for printers, graphic designers, marketing companies, large corporations, universities and general 'Bloggs the builders' type small companies in London. Which is in Europe, (at the moment). Working in a DTP Bureau and later for a large printer.

Not once did anybody EVER and I mean EVER offer me a file on Linux. The printers, designers, marketing companies were exclusively Quark, InDesign, Illustrator or Photoshop on Macintosh. The rest was a bit of a mixture on PCs. Corel Draw, Word etc. I even set up a Linux machine, just in case.

So where are all the "indy artists" you talk about? Where do they get their printing done? We did sometimes get amateur wanna-be artists trying to start as a graphic designer working from their bedroom (nothing wrong with that) but they were nearly always Corel Draw. The problem is, you usually have to cooperate with the companies own in house stuff. Which is normally PC, so Linux is useless in every case. I used to do a lot of Mac to PC and back conversions or turning Word files in something printable, even spot colours.

I am sure I know why I never met a Linux artist and I quote "waiting for more software support".

What professional experience do you have in this field? How do you know what you are saying?

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, msdobrescu said:

But, when you deal with computers, education is mandatory. You have to become a geek. There is no other way.

Nonsense. You do not need to become a geek to use application software. For that, all you need is basic computer knowledge of things like how to install an app (which is often a one click operation if you are getting it from an Apple or Microsoft store) & how to save & open documents, plus knowledge of how to use the app's features.

If you think every or even the majority of graphics software users need to know -- or more importantly, want to know -- anything about CLI's, grep, distributions, & all the other geeky stuff, whether pro, "ultra pro" (whatever that is supposed to mean), or amateur/hobbyist, then you need to, as the saying goes, "get out more" & interact with a broader range of users more representative of the overall market. Do that & I think you will find that more than most, graphics artists really don't want to have to concern themselves with such things, which is why they tend to chose Windows or the Mac OS (or more recently even iOS & iPads) rather than Linux.

4 hours ago, msdobrescu said:

I have not mentioned MacOS. [...] For myself is too expensive, but I have only one thing to complain about - the telemetry.

What specifically is this "telemetry" you complain about? Apple is rather famously obsessive about protecting user privacy, including several well publicized legal battles with U.S. government & law enforcement agencies about the dangers of 'back doors' & the company's ongoing efforts to make user data secure even from itself.

[msdobrescu]

Well, as software developer is mandatory to know the OS internals, at least at a generic level, not necessarily at the lowest level It depends. I have fellow developers around not knowing or not willing to know more than the surface. Here comes the low quality software from.

However, only system admins should deal with troubleshooting and drivers problems. I understand the graphic designers and artists are non-technical, I understand all people want to know the least in order to do their job. IMHO, if they will stay to paper and pencils it's feasable. Working with computers, is not that natural in this field, no matter how skilled are they as artists. I've read that Vangelis said once he prefers synths, but no computers at all as they tend to stay in the way of the creative act and I believe him. Sadly, technical issues arise all the time, tablets suddenly have issues due to the OS, lags or bad software like Photoshop handling brushes with tablets etc. happen. Here comes the blues. And as long as you use a computer, you might need to tune it, to understand how to make it more proeficient, to chose the software understanding why it behaves or not, if there is a way to workaround it, then how to workaround it, you need to understand anti-aliasing and its problems, or multi-threading, farming or simply set the right driver version for your tool, hidden options like Windows registry, dependencies, managing plugins and upgrades, probably some scripting in some language, then debugging the script... You go deeper and deeper, although, ideally, you should press the power on and work. Indeed, Mac is the one that acts like a reliable servant, seems to step out and say "At your service, sir!", but there are parts from the above you might need to know eventually, excluding troubleshooting and crash recovery.

BTW, I've met high costs support team lately that stated "I'm lost with Windows 10". I know they are, this is what Windows does to people.

Regarding telemetry, I've read that Apple refused to give up its collected data, that means it collects and that is not all right after all. And "jailbreak" is one thing that does not refer to piracing for many. I know a guy proud of its iPhone, took a picture, but could not get it out of the system. That's unacceptable.

After all, as long as I understand those proprietary OS markets are their way to make money, they should take their job seriously in providing the according services to people, for the people. They;ve forgot that. They exist for me and not vice-versa.

Also, Linux is a great playground for testing new technologies that will be profitable for the proprietary ones, so if this doesn't deserve the same attention is like the one saying "I buy only second hand cars, others are idiots", but forgetting that a second hand car was purchased for the first time by somebody in order to get it as second hand.

[toltec]

58 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

Well, as software developer is mandatory to know the OS internals

But what has that got to do with the "Graphic companies" you talked about

4 hours ago, NNois said:

That's not the case for every Graphic company I worked

My experience was that most design professionals are artistic types, not interested in the OS. They create, not install and repair.

Again, can you back up your statement ?

4 hours ago, NNois said:

I can assure you nearly every Indy Artist with 5y+ of experience I know have plans to move on Linux

It goes totally and completely against everything I ever experienced. 

I am still in touch with the trade, and asked a few months back and either graphic artists had not heard of Linux, though it was a geeks machine, or said it had no proper software. That is all artists! that I know of.

I'm sure there are a few tortured souls somewhere 

[msdobrescu]

@toltec, you mixed the posts a bit.

[toltec]

42 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

@toltec, you mixed the posts a bit.

I would still like to see you back up your claim that nearly every indy artists is thinking of moving to Linux.

Should be easy enough to do.

[msdobrescu]

Not at all, I'm talking for myself only. But I can't imagine creating digital art without being technically closer to the OS and even programming. Those who aren't, are happy.

[toltec]

3 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

Not at all, I'm talking for myself only. But I can't imagine creating digital art without being technically closer to the OS and even programming. Those who aren't, are happy.

Does understanding 4g networks, satellite communications, or fibre optic cable transmission help people to send an SMS, make a phone call or watch a streaming video?

It's only because you are a Linux geek that you are arguing it's case 

Most people don't care about operating systems or fibre optic cables.

[msdobrescu]

7 minutes ago, toltec said:

Does understanding 4g networks, satellite communications, or fibre optic cable transmission help people to send an SMS, make a phone call or watch a streaming video?

False argument. It's like discussing about ISP's infrastructure when you try to send an e-mail or download something. What is in your hands it's your business, like the PC, your home router, your wire or wireless network to the ISP's plug, the apps to e-mail that need configuration (server/client stuff) etc..

For the SMS, actually, you need to install an app or use the stock one, give permissions etc.. You must understand that or why your phone can't do it, if it is the case, I've met that on a stock Android.

11 minutes ago, toltec said:

Does understanding 4g networks, satellite communications, or fibre optic cable transmission help people to send an SMS, make a phone call or watch a streaming video? 

It's only because you are a Linux geek that you are arguing it's case 

Most people don't care about operating systems or fibre optic cables. 

I am no Linux geek, I've used all, I've made my choice. I use whatever I need, including Windows. Where do you think I have all the most issues after working on Windows from version 1.0? Probably I'm a geek in your eyes because I understand all the technologies, being a MS DOS user in the beginning. See? That's why I'm not afraid of Linux and its shell.

I feel you angry. If you are, it's because your experience with some OS was not as expected. I bet with Linux and Windows. If so, channel it into arguments with their producers. You'll be probably listened like this Linux request here anyway...

And I second you. I want to join the utopia when the OS is just some black box I don't need to know while I do my job or my hobby!

 

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, msdobrescu said:

Well, as software developer is mandatory to know the OS internals, at least at a generic level, not necessarily at the lowest level It depends.

What does that have to do with people that just use the software?

1 hour ago, msdobrescu said:

However, only system admins should deal with troubleshooting and drivers problems.

More nonsense, at least if you mean someone other than a user who has admin access to the computer they own or control & a reasonable amount of common sense. Admittedly, some users don't seem to apply much common sense to computers, but both Windows & to a much greater extent MacOS goes to some lengths to make it hard for them to screw things up, while by its nature Linux makes that much easier to do.

Besides, the most often encountered technical problems can most often be resolved relatively easily, usually via provisions built into the OS that are specifically designed so users don't have to resort to command lines, know anything about arcane commands or switches, or do anything besides follow simple instructions or on-screen prompts.

2 hours ago, msdobrescu said:

Regarding telemetry, I've read that Apple refused to give up its collected data, that means it collects and that is not all right after all.

Why specifically do you think that is in any way an indication that anything is wrong with the way Apple collects user data or protects it from questionable use by governments or law enforcement agencies, or for that matter from Apple itself using it in any ethically questionable manner?

2 hours ago, msdobrescu said:

I know a guy proud of its iPhone, took a picture, but could not get it out of the system. That's unacceptable.

If we are going to go the meaningless "I know a guy" anecdotal route, I know dozens of people who have had no such problems with their iPhones, & just a few self styled über-geeky ones who have expressed any interest at all in jailbreaking their iPhones for any reason. But as above, this has nothing to do with people who just want to use their devices to run apps rather than develop anything for them. That is the only market Serif is or should be interested in serving, with all due consideration given for the return on investment that keeps them in business so they can serve any market at all.

[R C-R]

45 minutes ago, msdobrescu said:

Not at all, I'm talking for myself only. But I can't imagine creating digital art without being technically closer to the OS and even programming. Those who aren't, are happy.

I am not sure what you mean in that last bit about who is happy, but it is very easy for me to imagine artists being very happy indeed that they do not need to be "technically closer to the OS" to create their art, digital or otherwise. After all, that is what once made Macs the overwhelming favorite choice for artists, & at least arguably why Photoshop started out as a Mac only app. It might also be worth considering the parallels with the development of the Affinity apps, or the significance of that regarding Serif's decision not to develop Linux versions. 

[SrPx]

Msdobrescu, had no time to read all the posts yet, will do now (wow, this thread moves fast)

But something has caught my attention: I am of your same opinion, you need to know your system, curiosity is what made the humankind advance, and in a more mundane vibe, if you have a machine, better to at least understand some minimal practical things (is not like u are coding a new linux kernel, so we're always speaking just some advanced handling of the OS) , which is at least handle the console, and the desktop in a basic way at least. Answering to your question, yes, please, believe me, grep, the term window, the scp command, doing a sudo is TOTALLY dark magic for the 99% of graphic artists that I know. And when you explain its use to them, the say some bad word and call you crazy. Been there, done that. Even to a bunch of coders, if non Linux based (yet so extremely good programmers, and if you knew them, u'd agree). You use it everyday, so is familiar to you. But to be completely fair, linux users should recon that a large percentage of them (not all) don't either know Windows console commands like fsc , netstat,  ipconfig, or even in the graphical desktop in Windows, just to simply disable a service, kill a rootkit virus just using the repair console and system restore,  or safely editing the registry. In my last company, I would tell you a lot wouldn't know how to do these things, and even stuff way more basic, and had to be trained in all that, because, linux experts as they were, they were required to perform at least decently in every platform.

As a general rule, people are NOT like us, I mean, willing to go that extra mile. Geeks (yes, what you define is geeky, in our society, sorry  )  are not the majority. To you, this is not geek because is what you like and enjoy and use it every day. To me, optimizing the 640 ks of ram (in late 80s or early 90s ) that a PC 286 had, to crazy levels even over the own manual recommendation, was pretty normal, nothing geek (Or connecting an arcade machine joystick to my spectrum) But perhaps none of  us know a lot about beekeeping, while others wont understand how we can live without knowing the main things about it.

Here lays the main problem of the entire thread. The stats, the numbers, the average citizen is not like this. They save energy and brain activity to what they really badly need. This has been understood by the large companies pretty well. You might dislike them,  but they know a thing or two about handling the masses (yeah, specially MS...and you know it, too....). This connects with what I was mentioning in the comparison about the success of the console games when it did seem at some point that PC games, more configurable, with more possible controls to handle (keyboard), more powerful in many aspects aspects, and more versatile hardware, it would never be beaten by a pre-made box for just games, rigid console, a "toy for dumb people" (not my words, is what some people said).  Well, just for same reason why a VHS video playback machine can be used by anyone, and everyone uses it, even total aliens to technology, the slightly more complex install of a PC game did win the battle for the console. Stupid and simple as that. People like it simple. I've worked as tech support, for people supposedly in technical or close to technical careers and jobs. Well, doesn't matter. people like it simple. Look, I treasure this sentence from a very good friend. She's a total geek. An amazing coder and a big name (now, today, not then) in Linux world. Me an her, I was convinced we were in a company full of geeks, and me, the windows guy, I thought I was the "normal" guy, never a geek. She told me : dude, in this company full of linux experts, there are only 3 geeks (she explained she was referring to me, the boss and herself). In a staff of very highly prepared linux (and some windows/mac) tech people: Coders, sys admins, etc. All them knew more linux stuff than I did.  She understands "geek" as someone inherently curious even when there is not a need for that knowledge. Her point is: they knew all that because they had to, only. Probably is not the correct meaning, but some people understand it so. The others would learn stuff IF was necessary. Not as a vicious habit. You clearly later on notice this difference in a fact: Something happens that is not working.... well, only a few people, when find a solution, loose some time in doing extra research and don't stop, even if leaving it for research at home, to really understand what caused that. A LOT of the folks there would say: Hey, it works, don't overdo it.  To the question "and do you know what triggered it?" getting a "huh, dunno, whatever" can't upset me more.... That's where the main population is at. The sooner one understands this, the happier and in peace you get to be with everything, the less bad surprises is gonna have. And I am not really a "pure" geek, as well, I apply a lot of that pragmatism , but "can" go the extra mile when I see it is worth it, that in the balance, I am going to obtain more compensation than loses. In Linux, not yet so. And yes, due to to the lack of software (there your vicious circle, but in that line you get into an espiral, no way out, other than what I explained earlier : Linux NEEDS to change (no need to loose personality, but think a lot more in the non geeky user, and this include the strong professional NOT interested in the OS) so that the bulk of population will come in) , but also some lacks in the OS for graphic production, and the fact that you need to know a lot of things as a first research (yeah,. later it goes faster). That nice number of "first times" in things pretty solved for the user in WIndows, let alone Mac OS, is what is an extreme barrier for the average artist/designer in Linux.

So, back to the why not make a linux version topic, a lot goes with what I just described. Marketing and money people just go for the mass of sales. You can deduce why they reach certain conclusions with what I refer to above. People reacting to an OS issues like, I'd even go as far as saying not just you, but even all the recent posters, is uncommon. Really, believe me, people is way more basic in the time they are willing to spend with just an OS. Another error in a bunch of linux users when trying to understand why the matter does not take more attention is that they think that their particular closed environment is the entire world, the friends from meetings and Linux events, the linux communities they often carry to local meetings or know from gathering together since the college, they end up thinking that is the world, those are the stats. Which is hilarious coming from so smart people. While I believe in computer engineering careers, statistics is subject in some years, or will depend on each country. But is an extremely important area from anything in IT, so I dunno why is so ignored, statistics, when applied to the population behavior, to how much the resulting numbers matter for a business, etc.

[toltec]

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

I am not sure what you mean in that last bit about who is happy, but it is very easy for me to imagine artists being very happy indeed that they do not need to be "technically closer to the OS" to create their art, digital or otherwise.

I painted my flat recently and the paint was lead free and water based.

I have no idea if that makes me feel better or not and technically, I don't feel closer to it knowing that, despite getting it all over me (I had to suffer for my art). 

It looks good though 

[SrPx]

Quote

Think of using Illustrator for vector graphics. It is known that open paths are an issue for printing. So you have to run a script in order to check and ifx it. Depending on the OS, you might need javascript or applescript. Here we go...

Sorry. Nope. Every other illustrator / designer I knew, including myself, just would be careful in the editing and review the scene file, to not just hunt that, but many other stuff non welcome by a printer shop or a stock place... Going further, while I dislike plugins, the majority of people wont code their own ones, they'll just dig the  net for some free or cheap ones, or find a workaround not involving coding. Coding , OS issues, is a no-no for a lot of designers.

I once read i n some forum sth that did shock me, probably will amaze you too : Some waay experienced designer, quite a guru in design, so, I used to respect him, I read from him "What, I have to open a dos console for that ??"  (ouchy, was just typing a line they gave him, and press enter  )  ..."...What are we, back to the caves ???   He was Mac based. This explains A LOT of the point I try to make.  I was born in IT with a dos console. I deeply love it. But one needs to understand what the mass of people have in their minds.