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VectorCat

why are new objects put into locked layer groups?

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maybe I'm old-school but I view "locked" as meaning, "You can't alter this."

 

I am constantly getting stung by finishing with a layer group, locking it, creating a new object, then trying to move or change it, and unable to!!

 

kind of screwy to allow the new object to be created on a locked layer, and then to have that newly-created object be locked!

 

I see no logic or benefit to this....is there one/some?


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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Also you can lock a child layer nested in an unlocked parent layer, and when you move the parent layer, the child also moves! It doesn't make sense to me either, @vectorcat; Hopefully it's just one of those small bugs which needs to be wrinkled out...


2017 15" MacBook Pro 14,3 w/ Intel 4 Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16 GB RAM, AMD 455 @ 2 GB, 512 GB SSD, macOS High Sierra

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In general, I am encountering a lot of illogic when it comes to where things land and whether I can and can not click on them to interact with them.

 

Major neck pain when my day is characterized by futile and incessant clicking. Can something be done about this? At least can there please be an explanation of the current rationale so that we can deal with/avoid it?

 

Is it about whether I've clicked on a layer group or not? is this trying to help me? Could it be less helpful and less insistent?  Why can I direct-click on some things, yet not on others?

 

This is a very pointy rock in the shoe, for me..can't speak for others. Very pointy. Like a cinder, with sharp spikey bits.

 

;-)


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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and for the record, when I post here more often, it isn't because I'm having a bad hair day, it's because I'm using AD hot n heavy and noticing things.

 

peace.


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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Can you show me an example of an object that you expect to be able to click on, but cannot? There could be a lot of reasons so I'd really need to see what's (not) happening... 

 

Once you have a 'locked' item selected, it's assumed you meant to work with it. You can't select a locked object unless you have explicitly clicked it in the Layers Panel.

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I completely understand what VectorCat is talking about. I too sometimes mistakenly create new shapes on a locked layer which should be impossible (as a layer that is locked shouldn't allow anything to be changed while it is locked). Then I can't select the item to move it to an unlocked layer without first unlocking the layer that was supposed to be locked, then cutting the shape and then moving it to another layer and finally going back and locking the layer again. This does create a lot of unnecessary clicking. To me a locked layer should be locked and nothing should be able to be added to the layer or deleted from the layer and no changes should be allowed until the layer is unlocked. I brought this up some time ago here but I got no responses. https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3845-shouldnt-hidden-layers-be-locked/. I'm sure that there is some reasoning for this behaviour but to me it seems counter-intuitive. 

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if you need something like a video screen grab, I might could serve one up to you, but the behavior, tho puzzling, is as I described it. I will be working with/manipulating items on unlocked layers, then moments later, no amount of (edit: direct) clicking will activate those objects again. (edit: I must click on the item in the layer palette).

 

Let me know if a video grab is required.


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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I do get what you mean. I really bothers me too the Layer lock thing where new objects place themself in a locked layer.

For me a locked layer is a locked layer, no changes at all should be possible.

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I do get what you mean. I really bothers me too the Layer lock thing where new objects place themself in a locked layer.

For me a locked layer is a locked layer, no changes at all should be possible.

 

yeah. things that are in a locked area should be off-limits to our touch until said locked area is un-locked.  None of this quasi-locked bidness.

 

Either locked or not locked.


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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I completely understand what VectorCat is talking about. I too sometimes mistakenly create new shapes on a locked layer which should be impossible (as a layer that is locked shouldn't allow anything to be changed while it is locked). Then I can't select the item to move it to an unlocked layer without first unlocking the layer that was supposed to be locked, then cutting the shape and then moving it to another layer and finally going back and locking the layer again. This does create a lot of unnecessary clicking. To me a locked layer should be locked and nothing should be able to be added to the layer or deleted from the layer and no changes should be allowed until the layer is unlocked. I brought this up some time ago here but I got no responses. https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3845-shouldnt-hidden-layers-be-locked/. I'm sure that there is some reasoning for this behaviour but to me it seems counter-intuitive. 

 

Sorry but this isn't correct. You only need one click to do what you're describing. Just select the object on the Layers panel (locked or unlocked it doesn't matter - this is a conscious action from your part) and drag it to the layer you want. There's no need to click (or cut) in anything else other than the first click to select the object in the layers panel.

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maybe I'm old-school but I view "locked" as meaning, "You can't alter this."

 

I am constantly getting stung by finishing with a layer group, locking it, creating a new object, then trying to move or change it, and unable to!!

 

kind of screwy to allow the new object to be created on a locked layer, and then to have that newly-created object be locked!

 

I see no logic or benefit to this....is there one/some?

 

When you create a new object and it ends in a locked layer (because it's the layer selected in the Layers panel from a previous action) it doesn't get immediately locked. Newly created objects remain selected and as such are still editable. Only if you deselect it and try select it again on the canvas it will not work (because the layer is locked) unless you select it through the Layers panel again.

 

---

 

I see your point, with a strict locked/unlocked approach, but i think that what's intended here is to have a little more flexibility than that. The idea of a locked layer/object in Affinity is to avoid accidental move/editing of objects on the canvas where it is more likely to happen. So on the canvas you do have that strict lock/unlock approach. 

 

The layer panel is different in the sense that's a structure created to control your objects. If you select something there (locked or unlocked) it is because you want to. It rarely, if ever, happens by accident. It´s a conscious action from your part. So Affinity Designer "override" the layer lock and let you edit the object directly without restrictions. As soon as you finish your changes and deselect it (on the canvas), you can no longer edit it again (it's locked) unless you go to the layers panel to explicitly select it again. This is the fundamental difference to other apps. It's  less strict without affecting it's functionality.

 

The only thing i see here originating a conflict for those locking their layers as a way to prevent further editing followed by creating new objects is that they end inside the locked layer - which although makes sense - the layer is still (and was) selected in the Layers panel after all - may not suit that workflow. In this case a preference to disallow the creation of new objects inside locked layers despite the layer being selected may solve this particular issue.

 

I don't see any other case where Affinity's approach can give you trouble (it's way more flexible than other apps and i think that's a good thing) other than the fact that it's different from what other apps are doing. 

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It feels like tensions are rising over this subject, and I don't feel that anyone intends that to happen.

 

I don't think anybody is beating up on AD; merely citing some problematic behavior.  maybe it would help if I took a screen movie of what I myself consider to be problematic behavior, and we can then discuss what that movie shows?

 

Sound good?

 

I think that what we users are after is a "model" of doing things which makes sense to us, and lets us develop "flow" in our work.


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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Absolutely no tension here @VectorCat. Don't get me wrong ;)

I'm just trying to explain how it works and showing that some actions are more simple than what you are describing. I'm a user too!

Maybe i'm not seeing where the problem is. In any case i personally see this as a healthy discussion and i believe we can all keep it that way.

If you think that a clip will help to show your issues, go ahead and post it. 

If somehow my previous post sounded harsh or anything, i apologize, it wasn't my intention.

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@MEB

Thank you for the good explanation of the idea behind the lock later behavior. It now makes sense to me, however it still gets in the way of May work flow to have object ending up in locked layers. So I would really like your idea of a preference option to disallow objects ending up in locked layers, as you suggest.

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Sorry but this isn't correct. You only need one click to do what you're describing. Just select the object on the Layers panel (locked or unlocked it doesn't matter - this is a conscious action from your part) and drag it to the layer you want. There's no need to click (or cut) in anything else other than the first click to select the object in the layers panel.

Meb, 

 

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realise that you can move shapes even on a locked layer until you have deselected them, that is very useful but it still doesn't help in situation. In my explanation I said that when I create shapes accidentally on a locked layer (it happens even to the best of us) I can't move them without having to unlock the layer, select them and then move them to an unlocked layer and then go back and re-lock the layer. This is correct because I was creating shapes without knowing that I was on a locked layer and of course I had deselected the shapes. If I was aware that I was on a locked layer, I could use your tip and then simply cut the shape and paste it onto an unlocked layer but most of the time I realise it later. It may seem odd that someone would accidentally be the wrong layer but it is easy to do. For me coming from Illustrator I'm used to just clicking on an object and it moves me to that layer. I know that Affinity Designer has that option too (and I love that we have options) but I prefer to work in the "single layer" mode as opposed to the "edit all layers" but I sometimes forget about it and then I end up on the wrong layer (it doesn't really happen all that much but it does happen). I liked your idea of "a preference to disallow the creation of new objects inside locked layers despite the layer being selected may solve this particular issue." Thanks again for the explanation about the thinking behind behaviour.

 

Hokusai

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Absolutely no tension here @VectorCat. Don't get me wrong ;)

I'm just trying to explain how it works and showing that some actions are more simple than what you are describing. I'm a user too!

Maybe i'm not seeing where the problem is. In any case i personally see this as a healthy discussion and i believe we can all keep it that way.

If you think that a clip will help to show your issues, go ahead and post it. 

If somehow my previous post sounded harsh or anything, i apologize, it wasn't my intention.

 

I think that's what it is..a combination of perhaps some of us not understanding the rationale behind the behavior, and a not understanding of why that behavior is problematic, at least for some of us.

 

I'll try to get what I hope will be a helpful screen clip this evening to show what my issue is, with some narration describing why I find it problematic.

 

Cheers!

 

vcat


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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@MEB

Thank you for the good explanation of the idea behind the lock later behavior. It now makes sense to me, however it still gets in the way of May work flow to have object ending up in locked layers. So I would really like your idea of a preference option to disallow objects ending up in locked layers, as you suggest.

 

I vote for this option, too.

 

pmeinertz says it well in that it gets in the way of my work flow to have to stop, puzzle out what happened, find my "missing" object, separate it out from a locked layer I thought was unavailable for new objects, make a new layer, paste my object, then try to regain momentum and flow. This current process I find unsettling and disruptive.

 

Upon re-reading the comments, it's clear that the behavior under discussion is known and deliberate in the sense that AD is written to behave this way.

 

So, no need for me to make a clip; it would merely show what we all know is happening, unlike a bug which happens sporadically and only for some.

 

I feel that while each software application may have its own way of doing this or that, there are some conventions which obtain across applications, and I would request that the developers weigh this in when deciding how their brand of locked layers behave.

 

Cheers,

 

vcat


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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It may seem odd that someone would accidentally be the wrong layer but it is easy to do.

 

I think that when you lock a layer, in the layers tab, if you then immediately selected an unlocked layer, this problem would not arise. As MEB says, once you are off the layer it's hard to get back on it by clicking on the canvas because it's locked.

 

I do agree that we probably shouldn't allow new objects to be created on a locked layer. However, I'm not sure we should just switch to a different layer and create it there, because that would be quite surprising. I think users would be unclear about which layer their new object was going on and why. If instead we just refused to create the object at all, with a message explaining why, you would then have to go to the Layers tab and select a different layer anyway. This might be better than what we have now, clearer and less error-prone, but it will also be intrusive and annoying, and the effect will be to teach you to deselect layers as soon as you lock them.

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If instead we just refused to create the object at all, with a message explaining why, you would then have to go to the Layers tab and select a different layer anyway. This might be better than what we have now, clearer and less error-prone, but it will also be intrusive and annoying, and the effect will be to teach you to deselect layers as soon as you lock them.

To me, that sounds like something that would both satisfy the convention you've built for AD, and help users to understand what is going on. Probably in a short time, Users would "get it" that they need to make a new layer after locking a layer group; that warning would helpfully be there in case the user forgot what to do.

 

Thank you for being receptive to our comments.


 2012 Mac Book Pro 12”, 8GB RAM, Mojave  |  2017 iPad Pro 12.9” 256GB, iOS 12.4

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Sounds like a job for the Assistant? How about a Create Object in New Layer option when a new object is made in a locked layer or something like that....?


2017 15" MacBook Pro 14,3 w/ Intel 4 Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16 GB RAM, AMD 455 @ 2 GB, 512 GB SSD, macOS High Sierra

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