VRAY RENDER PASSES

[rancax]

First of all hi to everyone

I have a couple of Q hope someone answers

here we go :

1) is afinity capable for exr 32 bit linear workflow?  

meaning EXACTLY THIS > if I render something as exr 32 bit put it in photoshop > and have ''BACK TO BEAUTY'' as described on vray manual > https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/VRAY3MAX/Beauty+|+RGB_Color

containing those described elements > vrayLightning, vrayGloballillumination, vrayReflection, vrayRefraction, vraySpecular, vraySSS2, vraySelfIllumination, vrayCaustics, vrayAtmosphere 

when you put them in lets say photoshop you''ll set everything on lineardodge (add), but another problem emerges > lack of many tools corrections ant etc... 

>>>> SO is afinity capable of working with those render passes meaning not having to switch to 16bit (as in photoshop in order to have full acess of all tools ) , but to work in linear space, set them in linear dodge and use all tools available??? 

2) Can I have lens blur in 32 exr? meaning to use Z-depth, as mask and use lens blur as photoshop does? all that in 32 bit? not having to switch bac in 16 as in PS to use zdepth as lens blur effect!!!!

3) Will my renders or render passes when I import them in afinity look exactly same as is in vray frame buffer??? 

4) Do you have some tuts regarding this EXACT problem and workflow? Because I saw your software, looks promosing, consider buying it, but not sure about these requirements/workflow/questions which is important for me... 

sicnce i got sick and tired of photoshop's limitations..

thnks in advance

 

[anon1]

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[verysame]

As for your first point, theoretically yes, but last time I checked there was still a bug with 32 bit files: black, pixelated areas appear randomly on the canvas. Not sure if it has been fixed in the last beta.

[rancax]

OK for blur, but how about rest of questions? regarding 32 bit linear workflow??? 

[rancax]

anyone??? nothing? 

[verysame]

In 32bit you have access to all the tools.

But besides that, did you read my reply above regarding the issue working with 32bit? 

[Frank Jonen]

I'm using 32-bit almost every day in Affinity Photo. If you only know 32-bit from Photoshop you'll find a few things different here.

Besides ICC sRGB Linear, you have the option of viewing and translating your image through OCIO transforms and exporting with the OCIO "profiles" attached to your EXRs (add the name of the OCIO transform to your file when exporting - daft, but works).

 

The most popular OCIO configuration right now is nuke_default, it's most compatible with regular sRGB / Adobe RGB workflows.

You can download the config here: http://opencolorio.org/configurations/index.html 

 

If you work in an ACES workflow with other facilities, ask for the version or have them send you their config. You can just use these in Affinity without any extra work.

That goes for Designer and Photo. So you can do complex vector work as well without leaving your project's colour space. Particularly great for making displacement 

maps with vector shapes, design and export in 32-bit float and no worries about stair-stepping (unless you use ZBrush, 16-bit integer limit there for alphas, maybe R8 has 32-bit now, but R7 still hat the 16-bit limit)

 

I'm not familiar with Vray outputs as I haven't used it yet. But it looks very straight forward from their website. Set it all to Add and hope for the best.

So far I've dealt only with Modo and Mantra renders in Affinity. No reason why Vray shouldn't work, especially since it's all additive. Select all layers and set it to Add.

For the advanced mode you could experiment with setting a group to Add and blend layers within that group. The output of that group will then be additively blended.

 

If your image looks too dark, the sRGB gamma is baked in. Set the viewer to Gamma 2.2. Looks right? > Add a Levels layer on top of that stack and set the gamma to 2 and another Levels layer set to 1.2. Levels top out at a value of 2. If the image is too bright, same dance, different shoes. Set all to Gamma 0.454545 (it'll round to 0.455) and you only need one Levels layer for that.

 

In OCIO you set sRGB to Linear or Linear to sRGB for the same thing then. With one exception. ACES doesn't yet have a path back to true ICC sRGB, I'm still working on that. 

 

 

Blur is just a blur, it's not a defocus node, so it only blurs things. Affinity Photo has a defocus node, but it has no inputs.

 

All channels come in as regular layers. You need to make your own masks / alphas from them.

Except your alpha, which you can set to:

• Delete the masked area (like Photoshop) - Perturb zero EXR alpha. (perturbed describes how you feel after using it)
• Mask the mask area (fill alpha to white to get it back) - Associate OpenEXR alpha channels
• Leave your file the fk alone. - "Uncheck Everything!"™ - That way the alpha is just a regular layer. I call it "serenity mode".
• In some cases the un-premult mode can be useful, you get that with "Post divide EXR colours by alpha"

 

I use the Depth channel this way:

1. Duplicate it
2. make sure I got the right 0 - 1 ratio dialled in
3. Layer > Rasterise to Mask
4. hide 

Whenever I need it, I make a duplicate of the mask and add it to a group (as group mask), then do the atmospherics for example within that mask.

 

Now IF we had symbols available in Affinity Photo without having to go through Designer, we could have ONE mask and instance it. Hi there @Andy Somerfield  

There are probably reasons why Symbols aren't in Photo, as I manage to crash Designer on a regular basis by keeping on editing them. 

Now imagine people putting a whole filter stack into a symbol and re-using that on every other layer group.

 

I hope that helped a bit and didn't make it more confusing.   Affinity just has more options in that department than Photoshop.

 

[rancax]

@verysame >yes, iI've read your answer, sorry haven't been near comp, thnks for answer
 

@Frank Jonen > thanks for deep explanation, it wonn't be confusing when I get more into afinity.. and yes great program as far as I can see, definitely worth using, and I believe it's far better than photoshop ( not that I have anything against it ) and closer to my preferences...

I have one more question if you can help me... 

as you've said > ''OCIO "profiles" attached to your EXRs (add the name of the OCIO transform to your file when exporting - daft, but works). '' I don't know really is vray attaching some infos regarding your statement, havent read about it actually, so don't know if guys from chaos group implemented that so to speak ( maybe I sound like total numb but haven't really had any need to deal with that aspect )

 

2) and as I said > havent been working with afinity but regarding renders looking exactly same like in vray-frame buffer > I'll guess that there it won't be a problem since in ''color mapping'' of vray settings is option to apply this setting only on color not gamma > and looked in renders dialog window ( during rendering ) file output gamma is :1.0 > so I guess it won't be a problem, but will see when I import renders in afinity i.e when I try program...

again thnks for answers, If i have anything unclear will ask for sure

cheers

 

[Frank Jonen]

3 hours ago, rancax said:

I don't know really is vray attaching some infos regarding your statement, havent read about it actually, so don't know if guys from chaos group implemented that so to speak ( maybe I sound like total numb but haven't really had any need to deal with that aspect )

 

Quite likely Vray just comes in as scene linear. Going from Chaosgroup's support pages: If you haven't set up OCIO in Vray, there is nothing there to manage colours. 

When you output from Affinity you can uncheck "Perform OCIO conversions based on filename" in the preferences if you don't use OCIO (but have an OCIO config installed) to avoid confusions with filenames.

 

Good luck with the renders  

[rancax]

Hi again, just one more thing crossed my mind,,, and I think it's essential

So:

1) when I import my exr render passes, and if they look like in vray frame buffer, and then I edit them, paint on masks, corrections etc... When it comes to export, to save them so I can upload them to portfolio service, and mainly they accept jpg's 8 bit, maybe png's > so, will they be darker like photoshop does ( emmbeds  srgb gama ) or what?... just wanted to know because in ps it's giving me a headache...

or setting profile ( ocio ) from start will they be at the end converted appropriate? meaning to look exactly the same as in linear space > essentially that's what is bothering me... ( again it's sounds stupid but that's what it is... )

thnks

[verysame]

The way Affinity Photo handles EXR multi-pass is great, too bad I can't use the z-depth properly to control the focus.

Anyway, here's an example.

PNG saved from 3ds Max

 

Jpg saved from AP

 

And below two screencap, showing the passes from the Vray frame buffer and the same passes in AP.

Vray frame buffer

2017-08-21_23-14-24.mp4

 

Affinity

2017-08-21_23-15-17.mp4

[rancax]

cool man thanks! that was exactly what I was needed!

 

This was my problem > Because of stupid adobe's decisions or laziness or whatever you gonna call it - 32 bit exr's when imported, only about 40 percent of functionality works in PS, BUT no hassle, all render passes just set linear dodge/add and good to go ( this is simple ''BACK TO BEAUTY'' ) workflow... but when it comes to 8 BIT, OR 16 it's different blendings on different layers!!! And since I JUST COULD NOT FIND BLENDING MODES FOR THOSE RENDER PASSES, then you'll have to switch it to 16 bit and literally have to guess visually > which is not ''mathematically'' so to speak correct...

 

so in order to keep linear dodge/add blending modes within 16 bit mode ( if you set linear dodge/add on 32 bit and switch to 16 bit everything got messed up ) you'll have to make a profile which is essentially sRGB just insted of 2.2 gamma you type 1.0 save it, and temporarily it's ok, you switch to 16 bit and blend modes stay but there comes a BIG PROBLEM when you want to export as 8 bit-png, or jpg ( low dynamic range format ) renders got dark! very dark, like burned! because of that gamma conversion I guess... and it stays wheter you save foto with icc profile embeded or without or switch it to sRGB and do exactly same with or without.... and that is problem! 

And recreating a ''ADVANCED BACK TO BEAUTY'' is same, but because of advanced passes final result is not quite as rgb color render! Hell, i dont even know if is possible to recreate it in ''ADVANCED BACK TO BEAUTY'' and here is why ( I asked on chao's group forum and their member - Dans has helped me about formula regarding workflows on their's user manual but I'm quoting a different post about this problem ) so : >>>>

 

>>>> ''Originally posted by Richard7666 View Post

Is this doable, or is it impossible by definition?
Reason being, I currently work in Photoshop in 16bit, as I can still get good control of exposure etc AND still use things like the magic wand and various other tools that don't work in 32bit. Currently, I only use a beauty pass.
However, I'd like to start comping my passes separately, so I can edit my lighting pass individually and so on. 
Is there a way to comp 16bit passes back-to-beauty so I can still use all Photoshop's tools?

Yes, you can. Let me explain:

The main problem with render elements (reflection, refraction...) is that they need to be composed in linear space. If you take a high dynamic range image like a 32-bit PSD or EXR file this will always be linear (so no gamma correction baked in). If you display such an image it will be gamma corrected automatically - just for display purposes (like the sRGB button in the V-ray Framebuffer). After Effects, Nuke etc. can do that, Photoshop does that too for 32-bit PSD images.

Your typical 8-bit or 16-bit PNG/TIFF/JPG saved by 3ds max already has gamma correction applied to it (Output Gamma 2.2 is the default). Your image editor or compositing software does not need to do anything special to display the image for you (ignoring color management here). But to combine several render elements these calculations need to be done in linear space - otherwise everything will not match your beauty pass (too bright). Compositing software like After Effects can do this (by internally converting into linear space when combining layers) but Photoshop does not do this (it has always been like that to make it fast). 

The trick is to save your 16-bit images without gamma correction and calculations will be correct in Photoshop. You just lack a way now to get the image to display correctly by applying gamma correction (like that sRGB button in the V-Ray Framebuffer). You will find the Exposure Adjustment layer in Photoshop has a Gamma correction option - but it does not match 3ds max.

The just released psd-manager version 4 can automatically save render elements in linear space and add a special constructed adjustment layer on top that matches 3ds max gamma correction. You just need to add your render elements to your 3ds max scene - the blending modes are assigned automatically. Have a look at the Trial version - it should help you do some tests. (Note: I'm the developer) You can also save a 32-bit PSD and compare. 

If you do standard back-to beauty compositing like outlined in the V-Ray documentation this will work in 16-bit PSDs. In simple terms if you just combine any of these: VRayLighting + VRayGlobalIllumination + VRayReflection + VRayRefraction + VRaySpecular + VRaySSS2 + VRaySelfIlumination + VRayCaustics + VRayAtmosphere using the Linear Dodge blending mode then you will be fine.

If you need to do Advanced Back to Beauty Compositing version then things get problematic only in areas where render elements have clipped values (so would have values above 1.0 in an HDR image). This problem has nothing to do with Photoshop itself - simply a low dynamic range limitation. '' <<<<<

 

So as he said :''But to combine several render elements these calculations need to be done in linear space - otherwise everything will not match your beauty pass (too bright) '' and I think he is right because I came across similar problem, but when you switch even your 32 bit exr's to 16 bit's ( half-float ) BUM! > Messed up and linear dodge formula doesn't work!!!! 

 

So in a way they made it impossible to do any kind of post production in damn PS.... It's like I'm buying a car to drive it in alaska but without winter tyres?!?!?!? I mean WTF... ( sorry for language )  

And yes Nuke or Fusion are different stories > they work with 32 bit exr's, even have native 32 bit depth of field with z-depth but that is not important > They dont have brushes and workspace if I want let say to paint on some passes or to utilize brushes, erasers, stamp tools etc....

I mean com'on it 21st century, how in the HELL DID THEY ALL GOT IT TO BE SO DAMN DIFFICULT AND HAND BANGING???? COULD NOT JUST ALL MAJOR BRANDS AND PROGRAMERS FORM, AND CGI HOTSHOTS sit together and work those problems out??? just to make universal workflow so to speak...... I'm not saying just guys from adobe, but chaos group as well and other major players... 

I mean it's really frustrating!!!! If I have to be a magican to know every god damn thing then to hell with it > what is then the point to express visually and artistically if I'm burried with tons and tons and tons of technicalities?!?!?! Maybe I'm going here with some philosophy but I think that is what a really good and beutiful design shoud be > to be easy to use, and simple! pure simplicity! 

 

And then I saw Affinity and it's beauty to import 32 bit passes and not to be limited as PS but to have full freedom to paint, effect, and other stuff which stupid PS doesn't have!!!!

keep on going guys, you're on right way just boost it to max!!!!

and thanks men for your answer, really appreciate it!

I hope i did not choke you guys for being this sufficient but just some thing, and supidity is driving me crazy...

Again did not meant anything wrong just a critic and personal views...

cheers

 

 

[Frank Jonen]

21 hours ago, rancax said:

Hi again, just one more thing crossed my mind,,, and I think it's essential

So:

1) when I import my exr render passes, and if they look like in vray frame buffer, and then I edit them, paint on masks, corrections etc... When it comes to export, to save them so I can upload them to portfolio service, and mainly they accept jpg's 8 bit, maybe png's > so, will they be darker like photoshop does ( emmbeds  srgb gama ) or what?... just wanted to know because in ps it's giving me a headache...

or setting profile ( ocio ) from start will they be at the end converted appropriate? meaning to look exactly the same as in linear space > essentially that's what is bothering me... ( again it's sounds stupid but that's what it is... )

thnks

 

If you haven't already, what you want to do is flatten before converting to output formats. Blending reacts vastly different in floating point spaces than in integer ones.

With online photo services I'd stick to 8-Bit JPEGs with embedded sRGB colour profiles. With sRGB you technically don't need a profile, but I've seen things go so utterly wrong with untagged files that I'm never doing this again. Especially with wide gamut displays that are actually set to wide gamut. For these you still need to convert to and embed Adobe RGB or the reds will overshoot. When you see these overshoots, it's not a majority. No need to panic.  If it looks good on an iPad, that's what counts. 

 

PNG has issues with some browsers still with 16-Bit display getting the gamma wrong. Especially on mobile (Android). 

 

If your 32-Bit files look right in ICC sRGB (Linear) - Affinity's default space, all you need to do is flatten the document, THEN convert to 8-Bit for portfolio use. This converts nicely to sRGB. 

 

 

[Frank Jonen]

6 hours ago, rancax said:

I mean com'on it 21st century, how in the HELL DID THEY ALL GOT IT TO BE SO DAMN DIFFICULT AND HAND BANGING???? COULD NOT JUST ALL MAJOR BRANDS AND PROGRAMERS FORM, AND CGI HOTSHOTS sit together and work those problems out??? just to make universal workflow so to speak...... I'm not saying just guys from adobe, but chaos group as well and other major players

 

That had happened already. Adobe famously told Pixar engineers to fk off, that they don't know the format they invented (EXR) to begin with.

Now we have a similar issue with ACES. Adobe doesn't care. They have Adobe RGB and Kodak's ProPhoto RGB and that is enough for them. Which is understandable. Adobe created this island where it's hard to get in and out of by purchasing post production tools. So a lot of people just stay in there and accept it.

 

That's why I'm so glad we have Affinity now. Which had the downside that I have to fix textures and mattes that don't hold up in 32-Bit space exposure changes because they were done in Photoshop. Not fun, but as more people move over that is going down as well.

 

As for the compositing workflows. As long as it's documented how channels go together I'm fine with it. It leaves room for continued innovation in how renderers handle data.

Chaos Group just made it super easy with how they're treating the output to go together all additively. 

 

There's also a book by Ron Brinkmann on digital compositing that goes into why things go together the way they do.

 

[rancax]

@Frank Jonen yes, I've tried today just a simple composition with render passes, saved it as jpeg and looks exactly same as in vrayframe buffer! and yes they looked same when I imported them in affinity so no problems in that area

Hell, I'm not going back to PS, they really nailed themselves down so buy buy adobe...

And as you've said yes it's pretty straightforward regarding formula's in user manual > linear dodge/add or linear dodge/add + multiply for advanced back to beauty and that is it, but since I was as you've mentioned in theirs ''magic circle''( adobe's ), and thing just weren't holding up in PS, and just could not get answers even from chaos group forums, I meant : ''hey, they made vray, gave user manual, formula's, they sure thought that maybe someone is not doing in linear space, maybe for other reasons people are doing compositing with jpeg's or png's, 8 or 16 bit but that was not the case...'' , so started to scrumble, dig around web but found only partial answers... and it was frustrating... but someone on their forum mentioned affinity and that got me intrigued > and voila everything is as it should be! Nice, neat, easy, clean, you know how it's meant to be > powerful but easy to use with no hassle! and that's it > man can go create and to be creative!

 

Just my personal view, they ( guys from chaos group ) could just give more infos about all of this, and still has some passes that are not in formula but are very useful, they  just need to sit down and invest couple of hours to explain a bit more with some video tuts > about minute or two long, and that is it! I know they don't deal with post-production, and it's not their's job but it's just would be nice, to spare some poor man a trouble to dig as crazy, and the best reason for all is that they are not giving it for free but charge it 750 euros, and since people are paying they have right to know a little bit more in depth but that' just me saying... A nice example for this are guys from allegorithmic's ( substance painter and designer ) they are really paying attention to detailed info to their's customers... but that is not topic here, just personal opinion... 

Thnks for link about book > will definitely look into it, and thnks for answer regarding our topic about exporting to jpeg's or png's 

[anon1]

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[verysame]

4 hours ago, MBd said:

[...]

I had the impression that all chapters would be available online cause they seem to be linked[...]

 

 

Where do you get that impression from?

I only see Chapter1 and I guess it's provided as a sample of the book, which can be purchased online on Amazon.

Then there are links to the forum related to all the chapters, but that's a different thing (and btw it seems those links are not working anymore).

[anon1]

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[netlander]

Hello,

 

Have a similar problem where I am moving away from Photoshop for the exact reasons mentioned above. After struggling for many years trying to tame Photoshop and make it play nice with 32bit EXRs, I've given up and moved to Nuke, but for the reasons mentioned above (using brushes and other bitmap edits in my composites without reducing bit depth) I am trying Affinity Photo.

 

Bringing VRay render elements from Maya to Affinity Photo (AP) I am trying to replicate my existing workflow whereby I multiply raw passes with diffuse then add the stack to go back to beauty, for example:

 

(RawLight * Diffuse) + (RawGI * DIffuse) should give beauty for a very simple material setup (no reflection, refraction, etc...)

 

In AP I don't get the desired result, it seems when I use the multiply blend mode on the raw passes the math is not correct.

 

In the example above when I use Lighting + GI the results are correct.

 

Any ideas what could be going wrong?

 

Thanks

Paul

 

Edit:

 

The culprit is the RawGI * Diffuse which should equate to GI, in AP it does not.

[lepr]

.

 

[netlander]

Yes I am, I've tried every combination with varying results, the only one that works is Light + GI.

 

The EXR is coming in as 32bit HDR with ICC profile sRGB IEC6... (Linear), should I look at changing some of the colour profile setting?

 

The ironic thing is that the composite works in Photoshop as I have it setup with an EXR plugin and what not.

 

Using AP 1.5.2.69

 

Thanks

[netlander]

Anyone from Affinity care to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[netlander]

So I guess Affinity's 32bit workflow is broken.

[lepr]

.

 

[netlander]

Pretty much came to the same conclusion and was hoping there was a workaround of some sort.

Thanks