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To be very clear, some of our functions are not as good as they’re going to be - but the software can legitimately make the claim ‘most precise’ as we use double precision coordinates for data and can zoom thousands of times greater than other software - this in itself backs up the claim. The vast majority of the software works correctly, manipulating and maintaining this precise data which is not found in other applications, you are just picking fault with something we’ve already publicly acknowledged is not working as we’d like and will change.

 

Are we done with the bashing yet? Are there only 2 camps in your mind? “Average user” who is happy and “professional” who cannot be happy because we don’t do everything without fault? I wish the world was that simple... Do you actually use Affinity? Which camp are you in? “Average” (well you don’t seem happy?) or “Professional” (well, if professionals find no value in the software then why are you using it?)

 

A question: The professionals who we payed real money to create real content and ship as examples in the software... do they not count as professional enough for you? Would you be surprised to hear that some of them actually had fantastic fun doing these commissions?

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11 minutes ago, MattP said:

To be very clear, some of our functions are not as good as they’re going to be - but the software can legitimately make the claim ‘most precise’ as we use double precision coordinates for data and can zoom thousands of times greater than other software - this in itself backs up the claim. The vast majority of the software works correctly, manipulating and maintaining this precise data which is not found in other applications, you are just picking fault with something we’ve already publicly acknowledged is not working as we’d like and will change.

are you sure no one else is using fractions instead of doubles? (how precise are your snapping guides placed at 1/3 of the page?)

(no, I'm not 100% serious :))


 

 

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This is really a lame thread, I've watched this from the sidelines and can't bite my tongue anymore. Here are my 2 cents:

 

Affinity is not Adobe. Affinity software doesn't need to be or do everything Adobe does, even for "professionals." Last time I checked other professionals in other fields (this applies not only in a software driven profession like design/photo/illustration) I discovered something amazing!! Professionals used MULTIPLE tools to do their job.

 

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT?!

 

Yes that's right!! People use multiple tools to get their jobs done all over the world!! I don't think there's one professional career that requieres the use of only one tool, except smoking crack, and you still need a lighter and pipe, so that's 2 tools. And one tool DOES NOT exist which does everything for everyone. I don't see any carpenters crying that their hammer can't cut a 2x4!! You know what they do in, they use the tool that works!

 

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT?!

 

And they don't expect a $50 saw to do what a $10,000 laser cuter does...

 

So please: stop wasting everyone's time with these useless cry-baby posts. You don't like what Affinity offers? It's not "professional" enough?! Good, that's your prerogative. You're free to go back to Adobe and pay the "professional" subscription price since you're such a "professional." The Devs will release the features in the order THEY SEE FIT, if you don't like it, GO BACK TO ADOBE AND PAY YOUR PROFESSIONAL SUBSCRIPTION!!

 

Do people go to homebuilders and tell them they want the roof built before the foundation?!! And furthermore, do the builders build the house using only an all-in-one Swiss Army knife tool?!

 

Go finish your work instead of crying about A BRAND NEW TOOL THAT'S IN ITS INFANCY YET SHOWS VASTLY IMPROVED PERFORMANCE AND MORE POTENTIAL than Adobe. 

 

Seems to me that simple impatience is all that's driving these kinds of posts. The Devs have been so kind to even engage the user community directly and not be filtered through customer service as is the norm. If you can't wait for a fruit to ripen, it will never yield its delicious taste. Like the ancient Chinese used to say, "Suck it up, buttercup."

 

ok rant mode off :ph34r:


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12 minutes ago, ronnyb said:

This is really a lame thread, I've watched this from the sidelines and can't bite my tongue anymore. Here are my 2 cents:

 

Affinity is not Adobe. Affinity software doesn't need to be or do everything Adobe does, even for "professionals." Last time I checked other professionals in other fields (this applies not only in a software driven profession like design/photo/illustration) I discovered something amazing!! Professionals used MULTIPLE tools to do their job.

 

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT?!

 

Yes that's right!! People use multiple tools to get their jobs done all over the world!! I don't think there's one professional career that requieres the use of only one tool, except smoking crack, and you still need a lighter and pipe, so that's 2 tools. And one tool DOES NOT exist which does everything for everyone. I don't see any carpenters crying that their hammer can't cut a 2x4!! You know what they do in, they use the tool that works!

 

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT?!

 

And they don't expect a $50 saw to do what a $10,000 laser cuter does...

 

So please: stop wasting everyone's time with these useless cry-baby posts. You don't like what Affinity offers? It's not "professional" enough?! Good, that's your prerogative. You're free to go back to Adobe and pay the "professional" subscription price since you're such a "professional." The Devs will release the features in the order THEY SEE FIT, if you don't like it, GO BACK TO ADOBE AND PAY YOUR PROFESSIONAL SUBSCRIPTION!!

 

Do people go to homebuilders and tell them they want the roof built before the foundation?!! 

 

Go finish your work instead of crying about a BRAND NEW TOOL THAT'S IN ITS INFANCY YET SHOWS VASTLY IMPROVED PERFORMANCE AND MORE POTENTIAL than Adobe. 

 

Seems to me that simple impatience is all that's driving these kinds of posts. The Devs have been so kind to even engage the user community directly and not be filtered through customer service as is the norm. If you can't wait for a fruit to ripen, it will never yield its delicious taste. Like the ancient Chinese used to say, "Suck it up, buttercup."

 

ok rant mode off :ph34r:

quite some truth

 

I'd like to add that this discussion is not only about Affinity Apps being professional or not

-

but claiming features which are not yet there (marketing) and announcing features ("soon") which do not appear which now leads to the fact that you "only see the news when they are presented on apple WWDC"

 

 

and lets not forget that Affinity gets quite a bit out of these forums as well, it is not like the users are not reporting bugs/& enhancing features/ ideas / give free support

 

forums are a give and take and I do not think one side greatly exceeds the other here


 

 

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And one more thing to silence all these people bashing MattP and the rest of the Devs:

 

I've been using Affinity apps for "professional" work since version 1.2.  Indeed they aren't fully polished as can be expected of any 1.x app. A few times while using the very early Betas my file got corrupted. For one of those jobs I was on deadline without enough time to rebuild in Adobe, against a corner...

 

And you know what the inconsiderate, never-listening-to-their-user-base Devs did after I emailed them the corrupted file?!?! They fixed it and emailed it back in less than 24 hours!!! Then they patched the software and released a new beta. Yes! I was shocked too! How could these Devs making a $50 app provide this level of customer service while ripping me off advertising a "professional" app?! I was furious! I'm sure the same thing happens with Adobe's Devs, you can chat with them and email them your corrupted files and get files fixed and a new beta released a within 12 hours... yeah...


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I think it takes protagonists to move forward. They keep the honest folk honest ;^) Yep, the generated noise can sometimes be, or seem, disconcerting. But the forum does give them a voice whether the content or its tone is wanted or not.

 

Don't like what a particular poster writes? Ignore them (either manually or via the forum software). I don't generally ignore them by either method—but then, I suspect I often enough fall into the same camp as Oval and others. I stopped reporting bugs long ago (although I think I slipped up once or twice since then) because of an issue here. But that incident won't prevent me from voicing my displeasure or point out software and/or personnel faults.

 

And I will still write things like "AD isn't ready for prime-time." Why? Because while it is getting better (with a bit of regression here and there) with each beta, I do not believe it is there. As Matt pointed out, AD is capable of stunning work in the right hands. I work in print production, not illustration. The main and most important things for me are work-flow speed and output. If I have issues outputting to PDF then AD is a non sequitur. PDF output is getting better. Better doesn't mean I cannot/do not have issues. Same with expanding strokes. I have to expand strokes to shapes frequently. And while the current 1.6 beta is doing better (far better, really), it is not an assured result. I need assured results.

 

There are simply things that take way too much time in AD. Export a complicated and larger PDF. I did with one of the files another user here had trouble with exporting. Takes over 30 minutes to export. In that time, I rebuilt it in another application, exported it, went and made coffee and AD still wasn't finished yet. So while AD is capable of professional work and somewhat output, that is completely unacceptable in a production environment.

 

ronnyb's current post came in as I was writing this tripe. The statement was made concerning the $50 price? Almost as if we all should accept the current state of things because it's so inexpensive and that alone should be cause to cut the developers slack. Uh, no. Serif set the price, it's their bed and they need to live with that. I would have paid more. I believe in Serif as a company. They believe in me as one of their customers (how else can I explain they haven't thrown me out of here yet?). 


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See the last comment you made is at the root of your misperceptions. It's a $50 tool. Why are you expecting it to do what a $10,000 tool does when it's still in version 1.5? Serif didn't lead you to believe you were paying for a $10,000 tool, did they? Actually I payed $40...

 

A "professional" knows that you get what you pay for. In Affinity's case, you're  getting much much much much much much much much much (not sure that's enough but you get the point) more value for those $50, but you're still disappointed because it doesn't perform like a 25 year old $10,000 tool. Or because the Devs don't develop in the order you like. Well boo-hoo!!!! Seems legit...

 

Word of advice; Calibrate your expactations; don't squander Serif's generosity in the value of its software, access to the Devs, or membership to its community by shitting all over the place. Serif doesn't owe anyone anything. You bought the software as is. You like it? Use it. You don't, go back to paying adobe's subscription or see how well you fare using freeware in a "professional" environment...

 

I think you meant antagonist.... The thing about feedback is that it ought to be constructive... the Devs have explained numerous times their approach to fixing and rolling out features is dependent upon many internal variables. Why not trust they are doing things as best they can and there is logic to their process? It certainly has yielded some incredible  results so far... 


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ronny, nope. I wrote what I meant. And at least for myself, I am not comparing it to your (exaggerated) $10,000 software.

 

I do use Illy. And I use XDP (which is what I remade that file in). And I use CreationHouse's Expression (and the MS variety). And I use, shudder, InkScape to run all SVG files through. And I've used DP. And ... and ... And guess what? Some perform better than others. None of those do I have output issues with. Does that mean I am satisfied with any or all of them? Not in the sense that they all need improvements.

 

My purchase of AD was made knowingly that it was not ready for prime-time. I did it to support Serif, of whom I am a decently long-time customer of. I do believe that Serif will rectify issues in AD. But that is the point, isn't it? It's got issues plain and simple. Dismissing those issues because it is $50 software does Serif and other users an injustice.

 

And guess what, I'll also purchase a license for APub. And I will let Serif know what I think of it regardless of its price.

 

I paid for a license of AD. That gives me every right to voice my opinion about it. It's not about the price (which I had zero control over setting). It is about expectations. It is about misleading timing statements. But it is also about under-performing issues. If you happen to think that what I have wrote here or in threads I participate in, well, that's your problem.

 

Take care, Mike


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You're free to say whatever you like to say; I'm not here to stop anyone from saying what they like; and so shall I:

 

Exaggerated? I've been a "professional" designer for 25 years and if I tally up what I've paid Adobe over the years, it's around $10,000. Each upgrade was $1,000. I only upgraded every other year on average. That's how much $ it took to use their software over the years and for them to develop it to its current state; they have millions of users and thousands of developers, and 25 years to get to its current state... 25 YEARS.... now let's reflect on that and consider Affinity is in v1.5. 

 

I'm on the same boat as you Mike; and believe me, Affinity is well aware of the areas their software is lacking polish in. But the point is the software is in v1.5. People have lost all sense of patience and expectations... let the fruit ripen, its version 1.5 xD


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Hmm. I updated Illustrator 5 times I think (which is what is pertinent to compare to AD).

 

The first version I purchased was 4. It was an absolute lemon and I only used it for client work as an export filter but used CD to actually do the work in. Then version 10, which was by all accounts a good editor. CS2, CS4 and CS6 followed. (And Freehand was in there during this period too, updated twice.)

 

I cannot recall what the price was for Illy early on. But it seems like the CS2 through CS6 upgrades were sub $200 each. So I am no where near the $10k even if I count in the Pagemaker upgrades and the InDesign ones. Photoshop was updated 3 times and again, sub $200. And if I add in my original purchase of Ventura--which was about $2k (and updated through the Corel years until the last version, v.10) and add in my CorelDraw purchases...even then these don't actually add up to the $10k.

 

I could throw in the 2 different 3D applications and get to, or just over, $10k, though. But at this, my 28th year, software expenditures have been, well, expensive cumulatively. My hardware costs have exceeded software costs. So best I don't go there...

 

I also use the CC version of InDesign from time to time as required. I will rent it for a month and be done with it. That happens once per year now as I have gotten all but one of my ID clients to switch to QXP. So that is a pittance for current, on-going Adobe expenditures. And heck, it really doesn't cost me anything direct as I add 100% of that cost to the client's billing (so yes, Adobe is getting money still, just not from me). Otherwise, every other ID client is using 5.5 or 6, which if amortized is very, very little.

 

I understand that Serif is (more or less) aware of the current state of AD. And I only started using AD when the Windows version came about. Which means AD was around for X amount of time before that. And one of my first reactions concerned the lack of bleed area: I had difficulty in understanding how an application "for professionals" didn't have on-screen viewing of the bleed area. That aside from everything else. Yes, it'll likely come about that we'll get to see a bleed area properly. And yes, my other quibbles may well be addressed. But do you seriously believe that the PDF generation time is acceptable in a "professional design application" at a version 1.5 (or 1.6 beta)? I don't think so. So what that I can design things to super-duper precision and have a bazillion percent zoom if it can take up to 10 times as long to output the job. You do realize that in a production shop that means less money per day, per week, month, year? OK, I'm sure you can appreciate the time loss. I'm uncertain Serif does, though.

 

So when, just like in the Plus line, Serif yaks about being for "Professionals" I take it with a grain of marketing salt. It is marketing hype. The proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is getting stale for print production people.

 

The main thing I appreciate AD for is the superb OT font support. It is on par with CorelDraw in all CD supports and obviously surpasses it in the few features that CD doesn't handle. Though I will still give a nod to CorelDraw for how it visually handles alternates and stylistic features. It's the best in class in that regard.

 

I'll be done with this responding to ya. Have fun.


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On 8/17/2017 at 4:22 PM, LCamachoDesign said:

Another recent example, a light UI may be nice and all, but no one gets paid to stare at UIs. I get paid to produce graphic content, focus on that first, such as vector patterns or correctly formatted and set copy.

You don’t seem to realize that the UI is what makes people productive (or impedes productivity) because if they can’t work with a UI because they can’t see sh*t or they are constantly frustrated by it then they can’t be productive. A user interface isn’t created because it’s supposed to be praised for its beauty but because it’s supposed to help people achieve their goal and be as productive as possible. How would you create graphic content with an unworkable UI? (not that the dark UI was unworkable, but just making a point)

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5 hours ago, ronnyb said:

And one more thing to silence all these people bashing MattP and the rest of the Devs:

 

I was trying to stay quiet to user debates since they don't involve me, but I agree, there is no need to bash anyone whatsoever. I noticed users even back talking staff. Really? If anyone doesn't feel Affinity is keeping up it's game, then I'm sorry to hear that. Anyone can like or dislike any product and even share feedback about areas needed for improvement, and that's fine, but I've seen users word things pretty offensively, and they made assumptions as if Affinity is cheating their users. If anyone is going to acquire service anywhere, then there is a matter of respect for those providing the service. There are things in the real world I disagree with, but I always try to think and speak positively. If I were to talk negatively and share my frustrations, people would turn away. Looking in a positive outlook, people come. We live. We grow. We learn.

 

I can say that I've had a great experience with Affinity; both with the software and the forum. I have gotten some friendly remarks from both users and staff. Just something as simple as that makes me want to stick around. Affinity is working, and they're doing what they can.


The website is still a work in progress. The "Comics" and "Shop" sections are not yet ready. Feel free to connect with me and let me know what you like or what can be improved. You can contact me here, on my contact page, YouTube channel, or Twitter account. Thanks and have a great day!

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2 hours ago, VIPStephan said:

You don’t seem to realize that the UI is what makes people productive (or impedes productivity) because if they can’t work with a UI because they can’t see sh*t or they are constantly frustrated by it then they can’t be productive. A user interface isn’t created because it’s supposed to be praised for its beauty but because it’s supposed to help people achieve their goal and be as productive as possible. How would you create graphic content with an unworkable UI? (not that the dark UI was unworkable, but just making a point)

Yes, a ui is very important to productivity and goes way beyond the ui color.

 

And I would say that for what I create, which isn't art, that AD isn't what it could be in that regard. That doesn't mean that one cannot be productive in AD. Just not as productive as one perhaps could be.

 

But to "prove" that one can create wonderful things in software that is extremely non-productive to drawing, one only needs a gander at the following link.

 

https://www.demilked.com/73-year-old-excel-paintings-tatsuo-horiuchi/

 

Mike 


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Creative Suite upgrades averaged about $1000, granted it was a full suite but compared to paying $100 for both AD and AP, and being able to get 85-90% equivalent feature set (of print apps), plus working in a cross platform, cross app, cross OS file format with saved history as a default feature is a pretty huge bargain in my book... 

 

If you wanna accuse Serif for over-marketing the "professional" term, you can technically do that but c'mon dude, it's marketing!!! By definition it only presents the positives of any product. Any "professional" worth the name will read the fine print and specs and visit forums etc to learn all about a new tool. So you know what you're getting into...

 

Anyway, I too don't wanna continue beating a dead horse; our time, and the Devs time, is spent better in more productive activities...

 


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As regards a print emphasis, the Design Standard suite was always on sale for a time after a release. CS6, for instance, was $1299 as a new license and the upgrade was around $299. All I ever bought was ID & AI in the later years. PS wasn't useful to me but upgraded occasionally. ID was $129 and AI was around $200. So every 2 years I was spending about $330.

 

AD is no where near 80% feature parity with AI. And if Serif never implements a plug-in capability and if third-party developers never write plug-ins for it and/or Serif doesn't get around to exposing the API to Javascript, it is impossible for AD to ever really be on par.

 

But the only real comparison to me is the AD and AI one. I don't own APhoto and will not be buying a license (certainly not in the near future). So yep, there's a price difference. But it really isn't that huge a difference on a yearly basis once AD matures and paid for upgrades begin.

 

Even so, the price difference is a red herring. No matter what one pays, it is all about being able to output the design (aside from the work-flow and designing issues). I have never had issues with pdf output from AI. Never have from CD or XDP either. With AD there are still serious issues with solid, timely, pdf output.

 

Marketing hype such as Serif have historically done doesn't do the product or the company as a whole justice...much less the developers answer their direct management teams.


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I have two numbers for you MikeW, and you should really meditate on them:

 

Version: 1.5

Price: $50

 

Let the poor horse RIP


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On 8/11/2017 at 0:49 PM, Mr. K said:

I would like to see faster development.

 

I would like to see scrambled eggs and fresh cold pressed organic juice delivered to my bed every morning at 7:30am...


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I've got one word for you. Hint, it's the title of this thread.

 

Once again. For me, price isn't the issue. You brought up the CS pricing. 

 

But if we wanna talk money, time is money. No matter that statement is a tired cliche. It's true. Now, it doesn't matter to me whether the money we are talking about is the extra time spent to output a pdf or the money I pump into supporting Serif's software via the time I've taken to aid other users. It's all about time and money.

 

The cost of the Affinity software is a small amount of the total cost. 


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4 minutes ago, ronnyb said:

 

I would like scrambled eggs and fresh cold pressed organic juice every morning at 7:30am

Then get up at 7 am and make it.

 

Unless you are using the Affinity Juicer. In that case get up an hour earlier. 


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22 minutes ago, MikeW said:

I've got one word for you. Hint, it's the title of this thread.

 

Once again. For me, price isn't the issue. You brought up the CS pricing. 

 

But if we wanna talk money, time is money. No matter that statement is a tired cliche. It's true. Now, it doesn't matter to me whether the money we are talking about is the extra time spent to output a pdf or the money I pump into supporting Serif's software via the time I've taken to aid other users. It's all about time and money.

 

The cost of the Affinity software is a small amount of the total cost. 

 

Hint: it's ALL about price as that sets real expectations. For you reality isn't an issue either it seems.... Anyway, good luck finding another tool that comes close to Affinity's offerings for $50. Let us know how it goes.

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Then get up at 7 am and make it.

 

Unless you are using the Affinity Juicer. In that case get up an hour earlier. 

 

Humor is lost on some, but since you're trolling, it got me thinking, that's the best thing you've said so far! It's great advice: If you want something get up and do it yourself. I agree 1,000,000%!!!

 

Why not take your own advice: don't like Affinity apps? Don't use them!!! Or if you're so talented, code your own apps and share them with everyone for $50. Until then, please stop wasting everyone's time (specially the developers) with these childish, impatient "are we there yet?" arguements... 


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You're pretty funny. You're wasting everyone's time just as much as you think I am. Running around the forum being Serif's Defender. It is fairly laughable.

 

If price = realistic expectations, your expectations must be really low then. Let's see. Does Serif making their applications $50 then excuse them for past unrealistic timelines? Or perhaps because they are $50 entitles Serif a pass on things like exorbitant export times? Or perhaps because the software is only $50 no one should expect that a convert to curves function shouldn't, well, function properly? That list of things could go on but I fear the point is wasted on you.

 

If you haven't run into issues with AD then you are Serif's perfect customer.

 

Don't confuse my statement of "not ready for prime-time" as disliking AD to the point of not using it. I have used it for some commercial work. I do use it in support of Serif customers from time to time. And it does show promise of what can be. It is that very promise of the Little Engine that Could at this point in time that I will "bother" with hanging out here, with helping others, with even paying for at least one upgrade in the future. The promise of what can be is why I will bother with doing some commercial work with it.

 

I don't have any idea about you or what you do day to day. In my shop, I often do not have the luxury of deciding what file format I return work in. That doesn't mean I won't use something else for the work and port it to the other application at some stage and use that other application basically as a file converter. I do have some latitude in what I use for at least initial work. And sometimes I can use whatever strikes my fancy (which means will do the job in the least amount of time). And sometimes when I can use whatever I want to do a job, I'll even use something not perfectly suited for it for the shear fact I am rusty and need practice and have apparent time to do so.

 

That, for me, is where AD may well fit into the scheme of things here. It cannot replace AI or CD until such time as AD gets respect outside of its cloistered little society of Friends. Not until it finds a niche or becomes a widely-used application can it ever be my main vector application. My clients determine what I use or at least use as a final format. But it doesn't play nice with AI in either direction. In fact, I don't really know what software it plays nice with consistently. I have had issues in ID, QXP & Viva Designer with AD's various output formats in my tests. AD simply has to play nice with other software in order to grow beyond the cloister.

 

 In my lifetime the best I can see of AD is that it grows up and becomes able to fit into a wider work-flow than it is capable of today. I'll likely die within the decade, and surely within a decade. I want to see Serif succeed before I pass.

 

Mike


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The horse, it's been dead, for a long time.... v1.5 + $50; that's all anyone needs to look at to develop a reasonable set of expectations.

 

I'm not not Serif defender; I have however had nothing but superb experiences with the developers on this journey of 1.x software. Perhaps I'm a defender of common sense. Let me explain: If the apps were at version 3 or maybe even 2, you would have a reasonable point. But they're not, so you don't.

 

You've expressed your issues/points very well; the Devs know how disappointed you feel; surely that guilt is what will continue to motivate them to make their software better. The guilt of going to sleep every night knowing that YOU are disappointed.... 

 

Moving on.

 


2017 15" MacBook Pro 14,3 w/ Intel 4 Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16 GB RAM, AMD 455 @ 2 GB, 512 GB SSD, macOS High Sierra

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People only see their side of the coin. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Different professions/user groups have different requirements. We only hear from those that are complaining but for a silent majority AD works as expected (or even more than expected). Compare the rants here to the people complaining about Adobe and their products – I’ve even heard complaints that people are paying a monthly subscription and all they get are minor changes, or updates take very long either.

So, yeah, I think there’s not much more to be said in this thread.

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