Import PDF with embedded fonts

[R C-R]

1 minute ago, MikeW said:

If a font can be embedded, it can be used via passthrough. If a font can be embedded, it can be converted to curves--it is no different than a pdf option to do so.

I am not sure how that answers what I as asking, which is if some font licenses prohibit embedding outline fonts in documents to begin with.

[Fixx]

19 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I am not sure how that answers what I as asking, which is if some font licenses prohibit embedding outline fonts in documents to begin with.

Font licensing is anyway beside the point. Fonts for professional use allow embedding and there is no problem legally or technically – only in Affinity software's inability to use them as passthrough.

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, Fixx said:

Fonts for professional use allow embedding and there is no problem legally or technically ...

My understanding is that for professional/commercial use, some font licenses require purchasing a license that specifically permits fonts to be embedded as outlines in any document file, & thus that if one does not own that license they have not met the legal requirements to do so.

For example, for the version of Arial Black owned by Monotype that is installed on Macs along with the macOS, Font Book includes the following in the License section:

Quote

This software is a valuable asset of Monotype. Unless you have entered into a specific license agreement granting you additional rights, your use of this software is limited to your workstation for your own publishing use. You may not copy or distribute this software.

I understand that there are several ways this can be interpreted, but from a discussion I read long ago on some web site that covers Apple-related topics, "this software" apparently means the font file itself (including everything that describes its outlines) & "limited to your workstation for your own publishing use" means that unless you have a license that grants you additional rights, you cannot legally embed the font in any document that is distributed to anyone else for any purpose.

Of course, I am not a lawyer or in any way an expert on legal matters, so I may have some or all of this wrong.

[MikeW]

There are certain limitations in font licensing. Even when fonts can be embedded, a particular foundry may limit its use for certain products. But those limitations do not apply to normal print publication products.

Even so, there may be some obscure foundry that even tries to limit publication impressions to X number. Or even as outlined fonts. But no major foundry does so.

[Catshill]

When I am sent a pdf and I don’t have one of more of the fonts, my preferred workaround is to convert the pdf with pdf2png.

[Wosven]

50 minutes ago, R C-R said:

My understanding is that for professional/commercial use, some font licenses require purchasing a license that specifically permits fonts to be embedded as outlines in any document file, & thus that if one does not own that license they have not met the legal requirements to do so.

When we receive adds made with fonts we don't own, that's not a problem, since the studio that made the add or the company that commissioned it should have aquired the fonts.

When we create adds or documents, we need to have licences for the fonts we use, but not for the PDF we embed. Major publications and magazines are controled, and can be sued or fined if they don't own the licences for the fonts used in their documents. I suppose they do the same with major adds.

 

If fonts can't be embed or use to create PDF, tools like Pitstop (that check PDF validity) give a warning or an error.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, Wosven said:

When we receive adds made with fonts we don't own, that's not a problem, since the studio that made the add or the company that commissioned it should have aquired the fonts.

Yes, they should have, but without demanding proof how would you know if (knowingly or unknowingly) they did not?

[MikeW]

R C-R, is your world going to explode when Serif enables the use of embedded fonts for editing, converting to curves at import/opening or pdf passthrough?

[R C-R]

12 minutes ago, MikeW said:

R C-R, is your world going to explode when Serif enables the use of embedded fonts for editing, converting to curves at import/opening or pdf passthrough?

My world has already exploded several times, for reasons far less trivial that for anything Serif or any other software company might do, now or in the future.

So the answer is no.

[Wosven]

6 hours ago, R C-R said:

Yes, they should have, but without demanding proof how would you know if (knowingly or unknowingly) they did not?

Today, with app able to scan and reconize fonts, and since there's always the editor's/printer's/conceptor's  adress or contact on documents, they certainly have no problem asking for proof (bill, for example) and give a fine if there's not.

[Darie Nani]

Its ok, I found the solution. I opened the client's pdf in Photoshop (which we still need because of Smart Objects, ANOTHER industry standard btw) and exported to png. 

[Darie Nani]

Also found out that if I export the pdf again, and disable layers, also fixes the problem. So this definitely has nothing to do with font licensing and has everything to do with Serif not providing a simple toggle to disable editing capabilities on import. 

[Fixx]

2 hours ago, Darie Nani said:

everything to do with Serif

Problem actually is that it is not "a simple toggle". I also assumed there would be a ready made code library available for passthrough PDF. Well, there is not.

[lacerto]

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[R C-R]

8 hours ago, Lagarto said:

Font embedding, converting its glyphs to outlines, or rasterizing them is a separate thing, and embedding is also clearly defined for this font: can be embedded and the document containing the embedded font can be edited.

Your screenshot shows several different things for embedding, including "Embedding of this font is not allowed" so why have you concluded that it is allowed?

[MikeW]

13 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Your screenshot shows several different things for embedding, including "Embedding of this font is not allowed" so why have you concluded that it is allowed?

If it embedded, it has one of the permissions that allow embedding. If a font is used in a pdf that does not allow embedding, then one needs the font to view the document properly. 

There are all sorts of free fonts that do not allow one of the embed types of permissions. I have yet to find a commercial font that is not a version installed with an OS that does not allow embedding of one kind or another.

I really don't know why you have trouble with all this. But I really do hope you raise your concerns directly with Serif when the features talked about in this thread are rolled into Affinity applications. But, please, don't stop there. Be sure to raise your concerns with nearly every other application maker and with all the main type foundries.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, MikeW said:

I really don't know why you have trouble with all this.

Because it is confusing to begin with & in particular because @Lagarto did nothing to clear up my confusion about why "Embedding of this font is not allowed" in the screenshot seems to contradict the statement below it in the same post that the font can be embedded.

[MikeW]

Those are just available permission options. Only a single permission is allowed. 

[lacerto]

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[lacerto]

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[benwiggy]

This argument about font licensing is entirely irrelevant.
Does Adobe wave legal warnings at you when you open a PDF in Photoshop as a bitmap? No. It just rasters it accurately. As does any other image editing program, including open source apps.

When you open a PDF in Illustrator, it says "some of this font data will be outlined" if you haven't got the font installed, and it displays all the correct shapes accurately regardless. As does Inkscape, Graphic, or any other vector drawing app.

When you place a PDF on a page in InDesign, Quark XPress, Scribus, VivaDesigner, Pages, Word, Finale, or any other app: it displays the PDF accurately and lets you print it.

This is not an esoteric legal obstacle for Serif. Opening, displaying, printing and editing a PDF are all entirely lawful activities, performed a million times a day. (What is not permitted is 'reverse engineering' the font data to create a working version of the font.)

[mmuller]

@benwiggy, this is what I have been saying since the start of this post...

[Grosvenor Imaging]

Well said benwiggy.

The sooner Serif sort the pdf passthrough the sooner we can start to use Affinity Publisher, as at the moment it is just easier (although we would like to change) to use indesign.

[Pierre Le Marchand]

Wow, I have just started using Affinity software as a trial, and the first thing I want to do, I am in a dead end. I search the forums for help, which drives me to this thread.

So if I understand correctly, Affinity software cannot make any use of the font glyphs that are embedded in most PDF files: not using them as a partial font, not converting them to curves, not even rasterizing them or displaying them. For my purposes, that means Publisher cannot properly print some imported pages from downloaded PDF files. Sadly, that means I cannot use Publisher.

I am surprised, because I was interested in Publisher for basic home stuff, nothing professionnal. I am into print & play boardgames (mostly card games) which have recently become a trend: tons of them are offered by designers and publishers, usually as PDF files. I often need to convert these files in some way before printing, often to target a smaller card size or a different making process (e.g. two-sided printing instead of fold & glue). InDesign (which I can use at work) makes that layout refactoring a breeze, and at home I can (awkwardly) do it with Scribus. I thought Publisher would be the perfect tool for doing it at home, but no luck.

I guess that illustrates the old wisdom that although most people use only a small subset of a given software features, everybody uses a different subset...

[GraphicDesigner]

I think I'm running into this problem as well. I'm importing a LaTeX PDF into Affinity Publisher. However, the font that LaTeX uses for the equations are replaced with some strange font, changing the look of many of the equations. Not sure how to overcome this.