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Colourprofile, filesize, embedding


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I'm working on Mac and Win with the AD. On the Mac side I can use a "Generic CMYK" profile for my document (if I want to make nothing special) so the AD file uses for a little logo about 50kb filesize, same to EPS and PDF -> sometimes does size matter and not the profile ;)

 

On the WIN side I have no such option for a generic profile, I have to select one by creating a document. The AD file always is always saved with the selected profile (about 1,4mb), same to EPS, only for a PDF I can select the export without the profile which results in the much smaller file size cause the profile was not embedded.

 

Ist there an option on the WIN side to do like on the Mac side if I don't need colourmanagement, beside if this makes less or more sense for someone else?!

 

Thanks.

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), i7 4.2, Radeon 580 Pro 8 GB, 40 GB DDR4-RAM, 1 TB Flash, macOS 10.14.6

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I don't how much help this will be but the Generic CMYK Profile is one provided with the installation of OS X by Apple. Along with several others, it is stored at path /System/Library/ColorSync/Profiles/ as the file "Generic CMYK Profile.icc."

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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Thanks, doesn't help to much cause it doesn't resolve the problem if I use it under Windows directly. If I export a PDF with the WIN AD there is allready a generic profile, but can't be selected ... strange. Maybe it is a must to use a colour workflow (till the next release?!) :)

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The available profiles will depend on the color space ("Color Profile" in Affinity terms) of the document & what profiles for that space are installed on the system. Since CMYK is inherently a color space, if the Color Profile of the document is set to use it, then the workflow must be in color, right?

 

On a Mac, Affinity automatically recognizes profiles saved in the standard locations like /System/Library/ColorSync/Profiles/. I don't know enough about Windows to know what the equivalent ones would be, but if you do you could try adding a copy of the Apple Generic CMYK Profile.icc to one of them. As I understand it, you may need to change the extension from icc to icm on the PC -- Macs recognize both extensions as ICC color profiles (& the files are identical) but I am not sure if Windows does or not.

 

The ICC FAQ page has some info about this (use your browser's search function on "ICM" to quickly find the relevant stuff).

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Both Windows and Mac apps should be using U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 as it's CMYK profile by default, as it's the one most commonly used, unless it's been changed in the Preferences. When exporting, depending on the format you can choose to use that ICC profile (document profile) or select another. You also have the option to embed that profile into the file, just in case a system used to open the file may not have that profile available.

 

Embedding colour profiles when exporting will have an effect on the file size.

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Thanks Lee, but as Fixx reportet, for Europe "U.S. Web" is no common standard, but only Serif knows where the most customers are living ... ;)

 

Beside this the colour profile for in Germany commonly used profiles like "ISOcoated_v2_eci.icc" adds about 1.7mb to the file, and almost all official eci-profiles have this size. But again what was the point:

Mac: I create a new AD file with a genereic profile and save it. No profile will be saved within this file.

Win: I create A new AD file and have to select any profile, but there ist no "Generic CMYK" to select. So if I select any profile, it will be embedded automatically.

So I think the Generic Profile-problem musst be solved for this on my Win machine, maybe as R C-R noted with the Mac one. I'll give that a try if I find the time this weekend. It is not a really fatal, it is just a little "different". Ok, I could work still on my Mac, aber nowadays my Win10 machine is much more flexible, has more power and is cheaper :( so most of the work will be done there.

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Mac: I create a new AD file with a genereic profile and save it. No profile will be saved within this file.

I could be wrong, but I do not think that is true for a native format AD file. From what I can tell, there is always some profile saved in an .afdesign document; it is just that some are smaller than others.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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I could be wrong, but I do not think that is true for a native format AD file. From what I can tell, there is always some profile saved in an .afdesign document; it is just that some are smaller than others.

I had a little time to test different settings, but the resulat is nearly the same ...

 

Mac

- blank AD document RGB/8 with "Generic RGB profile" = 1.4mb native AD document filesize

- blank AD document CMYK/8 with "Generic CMYK profile" = 45kb native AD document file size

So I belive RGB saves the profile into the AD file and CMYK doesn't, caus the file is much to small for any more than a profile reference.

 

Win

- RGB looks like on the Mac side

- CMYK/8 still can't select a comparable profile like on the Mac side and copy from Mac to Win had no effect on this.

 

So I think it is like it is, always profiled, with one exception on the Mac side. CorelDraw, ... don't use always embedded profiles (Serif Draw not testet) and they can be neutral. As I wrote, at last this is no problem, but one of the little things that are strange and could be optimised or cleared up. :)

 

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I don't know what the contents of the Generic CMYK Profile on the Mac contains. But on Windows, if you want a generic CMYK PDF, click the More button and do not embed a profile.

 

The resulting PDF will be a couple kilobytes, will still be CMYK if that is the color space desired, and will not contain a profile. Same goes with an RGB document, just a couple KB, RGB, and no profile.

 

Mike

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Thanks Mike, but that is not the problem here, sure you can create PDF files without a profile, but vice versa, you can't create an AD document without a profile -> except for the Mac AD with the "Generic CMYK/8 Profile". :)

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Here we go, attached you find the generic profile. But it seems to contain nothing special, cause the filsize is to small. So as R C-R wrote, a manuell copy of the generic profile to Win is the only chance, cause Win doesn't come with the generic profile. But if this is usefull must everyone decide for himself.

Generic CMYK Profile.icc.zip

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Jepp. A generic profile with "no size" for CMYK AD files which wont blow up the filsize for nothing if you really don't need profiling for small works which will be printed here and there. And cause you can't create a file without a profile ...

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I had a little time to test different settings, but the resulat is nearly the same ...

 

Mac

- blank AD document RGB/8 with "Generic RGB profile" = 1.4mb native AD document filesize

- blank AD document CMYK/8 with "Generic CMYK profile" = 45kb native AD document file size

I tried the same thing but got very different results. I created the documents at 800x600 px with transparent backgrounds & one empty layer:

RGB/8 w/ Generic RGB profile = 6 KB

CMYK/8 with Generic CMYK profile = 43 KB

 

Thing is, on my system Apple's Generic CMYK profile is 55 KB, so my blank CMYK/8 AD file is too small even for the whole profile to be embedded in the AD file. Colorsync Utility breaks down the contents of the two profiles like this:

post-3524-0-58777800-1493737484_thumb.jpg

So at most, I think the CMYK AD file is saving one or two intents & maybe the profile connection space to gamut check table.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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So at most, I think the CMYK AD file is saving one or two intents & maybe the profile connection space to gamut check table.

 

Fascinating ... but I think it could be like this ...

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), i7 4.2, Radeon 580 Pro 8 GB, 40 GB DDR4-RAM, 1 TB Flash, macOS 10.14.6

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I don't use AD for the same exact work I use other vector editors for. So I ported some designs to AD just to compare file sizes of AD files.

 

The below is just an example and the results shown hold true for the half-dozen designs I ported to AD.

 

post-255-0-05255500-1493774240_thumb.png

 

The difference is small, but does favor the US SWOP profile as regards the smallest AD file sizes. But should the small difference even matter? I dunno. It certainly doesn't to me.

 

And I guess I am still getting hung up on:

 

...if you really don't need profiling for small works which will be printed here and there.

 

I really do not understand this at all. I send stuff to a service like a quick print establishment, a wonderful and local offset two-color place, to only god knows who a half a world away in India and China, and to establishments like RR Donnelley. I send stuff off to get proofed by client's local printers that I have no idea what is being used. For clients, I will still use a PDF that has the print intent's profile--I could care less if their office printer can handle it properly or not.

 

While some of the above specify specific profiles, some do not. Seeing how I never, ever, send native files, I do not understand how using a PDF without an embedded profile cannot work for you. Do you send the native AD files?  

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While some of the above specify specific profiles, some do not. Seeing how I never, ever, send native files, I do not understand how using a PDF without an embedded profile cannot work for you. Do you send the native AD files?  

Mike, the question was not how to send PDF without a profile, that depends on what the pro print-partner claims. It was about filesize (that sometimes matters) and profiles which are embedded in native AD files. On the Win side I have every time CMYK files that have 1,4mb and more as filesize, also if it is only blank page. And if I don't need these blown up files there was the simple question: on Mac I have a CMYK AD file which is in size just some kb with the generic profile, and on Win I can't select something generic and the filesize was about 1,4mb plus ... whatever I selected. Then I tried the Mac profiles (from Apple) on Win as R C-R told.

Again: this is not a really problem, space doesn't cost to much these days, but if I don't need a profile for an Inkjet or Laser print in certain situations, I don't need that 1,4mb blown up filesize. I was just wondering and searching for the cause of this. And using a false profile just so save space isn't a good idea, a neutral one ok, but not a false one, just like on the Mac side :)

 

Certainly you give PDF to pro printers files with a profile (if they wish so) as X-3 .... but If you know you're destination, you need a specific profile, and that's ok.

I hope I wrote it understandable, sorry for any confusion I have may caused. I'm always happy for any help. :)

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), i7 4.2, Radeon 580 Pro 8 GB, 40 GB DDR4-RAM, 1 TB Flash, macOS 10.14.6

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Again: this is not a really problem, space doesn't cost to much these days, but if I don't need a profile for an Inkjet or Laser print in certain situations, I don't need that 1,4mb blown up filesize.

Maybe I am missing something, but when you are more concerned about file size than the color profile, why work in CMYK color space to begin with? Why not use RGB/8 instead & let the printer or system do the conversion to inks or toner?

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Cause on RGB I had the problem, too. RGB profile embedded, and most fixed colours of some club fractions are defined in CMYK, so it's just easier to handle.

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), i7 4.2, Radeon 580 Pro 8 GB, 40 GB DDR4-RAM, 1 TB Flash, macOS 10.14.6

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But if you use a generic CMYK profile, the printed colors won't be any more accurate than if you use a smaller & less complicated RGB profile, right?

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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