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Do we really need two pointer tools?


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First a little background
 
I have been a faithful user of Freehand since the times when it was called Virtuoso, I'm still using it now, I never liked Illustrator because it had (and still have) a lot of redundancies. I tried several times to migrate from Freehand to Illustrator never totally succeeding, now I use Freehand to make the fundation of any design and then to Illustrator to add the embellishments, fx, exporting, etc... 
 
Ok, enough history, the question is: Do we really need two pointer tools? One of the most time consuming and frustrating things in Illustrator (among many others) is switching from one pointer to an other depending on what you want to accomplish. In Freehand  there are two pointer tools, the "regular" one and the "direct selection tool", I rarely use the "direct selection tool", why? because you can access everything with the regular one, it is no matter if you have all your elements in groups, elements pasted inside elements or points on a path (you can even align and distribute points within the groups), all you have to do is grab your pointer tool and then if you want to sub-select to edit something just press "alt" and voila.
 
This kind of behavior for the pointer tool, gives you total freedom and effectively optimizes the workflow, that is why I love Freehand, you can work really really fast.
 

 

I hope the Affinity team consider this and try it.
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I rarely use the "direct selection tool", why? because you can access everything with the regular one, it is no matter if you have all your elements in groups, elements pasted inside elements or points on a path (you can even align and distribute points within the groups), all you have to do is grab your pointer tool and then if you want to sub-select to edit something just press "alt" and voila.

 

You may or may not be aware of it since you didn't mention anything about selecting nodes, but Illustrator's Direct Selection Tool is not just for selecting direct selections. It is mainly for changing the shape's deformation. After you draw a curve, you can switch to that tool to fix its form and smoothness. The "regular" pointer tool cannot bend a line or adjust its nodes. Manipulating the shape is what node tools are mainly for, while the move tools are for grabbing the curves (and transform, skew, stretch, and direct selecting with the right key gesture).

 

It would make more sense for the Direct Selection Tool in Illustrator to just be called Node Tool or Anchor Point Tool, since they also have a third pointer tool, Group Selection Tool.

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Hi

 

Yes you are right I did not mention anything about selecting nodes, my mistake, yes you can also select nodes and edit them with the same "regular" pointer tool+ALT, the only thing you can't do is adjust (bend) the curvature but having only one pointer tool that can edit everything but adjust the curvature on a path seems to me a good trade off for the sake of productivity. Maybe that extra feature could be added to the "regular" pointer tool?

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Well the reason they are separate is because the same mouse-clicking actions and same keyboard gestures can do different things. I also think it would be too confusing for people new to vector, but that's just me.

 

But if you would rather work faster than to use the Node Tool ever, then hold Cmd/Ctrl while having the Pen, Pencil, or Brush Tool selected to bring it up temporally.

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ket,

 

I also used Freehand for a long time along (until it was bought and they quit developing it) as well as Illustrator both since the early 90's. I worked at a graphics place that for reasons unknown allowed different groups to use different software packages and I had to use both. For me, I much prefer Illustrator's way over Freehand's and I find Designer to be perfect (with just one exception, Designer won't let me select an object using the node tool when the object I'm trying to select is underneath a shape that has a whole in it). Designer's Node Tool is leaps and bounds better than Illustrator's "direct selection tool" (the white one).

 

To me using Designers's Move Tool and Node Tool are very efficient as I can assess them easily and quickly by simply typing "a" for the node tool and "v" for the move tool. Plus if you are using the Move Tool and you want to switch to the Node Tool, just double click an object and it will change to the Node Tool. Fast and easy. How would you suggest to make them more efficient?

 

Hokusai

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Hokusai

 

I was not aware (my fault) that you can "access" the nodes with a double click, that is a great feature, the double click in Affinity Design would be the "equivalent" of the pointer+ALT that I was talking about, the only thing I can think to "improve" it is if with a double click you can "open" the nodes for whatever you are editing, with an other double click on an "open" node figure you should be able to "close" it? or am I missing something?

 

As turned out (at least for me) in Affinity you can jump from one pointer to an other on the fly to move/edit just pressing A, great !

 

To "select an object using the node tool when the object is underneath a shape that has a whole in it" go A+ALT click then click again, same for the move tool, just go V+ALT click then click again, I don't know why it does not select it with the first click but the second click does the trick.

 

Fixx

 

If the ALT key lets you work better and faster... 

Yeah, I used Pagemaker too, it was not pretty but strong and very stable.

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Plus if you are using the Move Tool and you want to switch to the Node Tool, just double click an object and it will change to the Node Tool. Fast and easy.

 

Hi Hokusai, thank you for stressing this function that I did not know, simple and fast indeed.

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ket,

 

I'm glad that you found a way that works for you to quickly access the node tool!

 

For me, I'd like the Node tool behaviour to change a little or at least have a preference so I can change it. I know I can access objects that are lower with an alt + click but I would prefer it if the Node tool had a preference so I can make it to only select objects and to ignore subtracted areas of objects. That way if I have a really complex shape with lots of holes or things subtracted from the original shape, I could still easily get to the objects below it by selecting it with the Node tool instead of having to worry about where it is in the layer stack (or using the alt + click). If i can see it, I want to be able to select it. Sometimes I have lots and lots of objects stacked up and they all overlap a bit so it takes a long time to alt + click to get to them. It would be much faster just to be able to select what I can see. I do realise that this might not be ideal for everyone so a preference would probably be the best bet!

 

reglico,

 

I'm glad that it helped!

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Yep, the way (in the now "dead Freehand") I was talking about was that the pointer alone lets you move and edit the nodes and the handles. The (pointer) + 2 clicks lets you move, rotate, skew and scale. The pointer + ALT lets you edit the curvature (bend) on any path. If you are editing a group you just click + ALT and the group "opens" so you can edit it, click anywhere else or go TAB (the default for deselect all) and the group closes, use with SHIFT and you can constrain movement on x and y, all with "one" tool, no need for an extra pointer direct selection or whatever, smooth and fast, I would like Affinity would go for this kind of switch and go approach.

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Yeah, I'm very well aware the the vast majority of designers are used to Illustrator's way to do things, in my point of view, it's really sad, I been in this long enough to have worked with all kinds of vector, editorial and photo editing programs, operative systems, platforms (NeXT, PC, MAC, SILICON GRAPHICS, etc.) and it always comes down to using the best tool and the best way to get the job done, regardless of the brand you are using.

I am not saying that there is something "wrong" in the way each person works, I'm just pointing out the advantages that certain software gives you and if Affinity is to be an Illustrator competitor, it would not hurt to take a look at a different and simpler way to do things.

 

I almost forgot, for those who must absolutely have also a direct selection tool, FH has them both, it's just that since the "regular" pointer tool does everything, you don't really use the "direct selection tool" that much.

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If double clicking on the "Move Tool" enters you in "Node Editing Mode", then why do we really need that "Node Tool" icon, at all? Just for show?

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ket,

 

I also used Freehand for a long time along (until it was bought and they quit developing it) as well as Illustrator both since the early 90's. I worked at a graphics place that for reasons unknown allowed different groups to use different software packages and I had to use both. For me, I much prefer Illustrator's way over Freehand's and I find Designer to be perfect (with just one exception, Designer won't let me select an object using the node tool when the object I'm trying to select is underneath a shape that has a whole in it). Designer's Node Tool is leaps and bounds better than Illustrator's "direct selection tool" (the white one).

 

To me using Designers's Move Tool and Node Tool are very efficient as I can assess them easily and quickly by simply typing "a" for the node tool and "v" for the move tool. Plus if you are using the Move Tool and you want to switch to the Node Tool, just double click an object and it will change to the Node Tool. Fast and easy. How would you suggest to make them more efficient?

 

Hokusai

Adobe Illustrator's editing is great for making it possible to access many functions without a trip back to the toolbox. It's better about this than any software I've ever used, other than Photoshop which is the same as Illustrator. Designer is not really approaching this kind of speed and flexibility for editing anchor points. I've certainly tried to see how flexible it is. It's ok.

 

Illustrator has this nice feature where it lets you choose two tools to use together. One is toggled by the Control. It's a very useful function.

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Yep, the way (in the now "dead Freehand") I was talking about was that the pointer alone lets you move and edit the nodes and the handles. The (pointer) + 2 clicks lets you move, rotate, skew and scale. The pointer + ALT lets you edit the curvature (bend) on any path. If you are editing a group you just click + ALT and the group "opens" so you can edit it, click anywhere else or go TAB (the default for deselect all) and the group closes, use with SHIFT and you can constrain movement on x and y, all with "one" tool, no need for an extra pointer direct selection or whatever, smooth and fast, I would like Affinity would go for this kind of switch and go approach.

I have an old copy of freehand.  I never thought it was nearly as fluid with editing nodes as Illustrator.  I think I'm going to reinstall it and do a comparison. 

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Adobe Illustrator's editing is great for making it possible to access many functions without a trip back to the toolbox. It's better about this than any software I've ever used, other than Photoshop which is the same as Illustrator. Designer is not really approaching this kind of speed and flexibility for editing anchor points. 

Kuttyjoe,

 

I'm surprised to hear that you think Illustrator is great for editing things without going back to the toolbox, as I find Designer's Node tool much faster, easier to use, and more efficient than Illustrator's Direct Selection tool. With Illustrator's Direct Selection tool, you have to switch to another tool (or use a keyboard combination) to add nodes and and a different one to subtract nodes. With Designer, you don't need anything, you just do it. It doesn't get any easier than that. As well moving and adjusting nodes is so much easier and better in Designer than Illustrator. Drawing is good in Illustrator but if you have to manipulate a bunch of nodes, it just feels clunky to me. Manipulating nodes in Designer is smooth and easy. The only area that Illustrator has the leg up on Designer's node tool is Illustrator can select a segment but Designer can't (yet). I personally never cared for Freehand's method, it just didn't seem as intuitive to me but that is just me. I also thought Freehand's U.I. wasn't nearly as smooth and polished as Illustrator's. Freehand had a lot of power and functionality but to me it was hampered by a poor U.I. (but it was miles ahead of CorelDraw). 

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Having a quick mess around with Freehand again, they're actually very similar. The regular selection tool in Freehand can do some node editing but I never actually reach for the direct select tool. When I edit nodes, I use the pen tool, and access the direct select functionality via key control key. It's not quite useful to say that Illustrator needs two tools, as if people are constantly picking one for some tasks, then the other for other tasks.

 

In Freehand, you can start with the direct select tool, but then you don't have the functions of the pen tool. So that's not all that useful. If you start with the pen tool, then double click, you will switch tools and end up with a direct select tool that can rotate, scale, etc, but at this point, it doesn't deal with nodes. Double click again and now it can move nodes and bend paths, but it can no longer scale or rotate the object. Double click again and go back and forth between the "versions" of this single tool, but it's switching tools and you're not getting all of the functionality in a single smooth operation.

 

Illustrator is similarly capable. You start with the pen tool and toggle the direct select tool, without ever switching tools. Alternatively, you can start with the pen tool and toggle the regular select tool which can scale and rotate, etc. See the similarities. Neither gives it all to you without some amount of tool switching. The difference is just in how you switch the tools. Freehand does it by double clicking. Illustrator does it by toggling with the control key. But in Illustrator you have to choose the secondary tool ahead of time. Choose A, then P to make direct select the toggle tool of the Pen tool. Or V, P for access to the regular selection tool. Similarly, you can pair different tools that you routinely use together to avoid making trips to the toolbox.

 

Lastly, From the pen tool, Freehand doesn't give you access to one important path editing tool. The ability to smooth out a cusped node. It can cusp a node but not smooth it. Illustrator does both directly from the pen tool. Illustrator lacks the skew feature. For that, Illustrator has a separate tool.

 

With path tools, Freehand is very close to the capability of Illustrator and I don't think I could conclude that one is actually better than the other. Both give you a lot of access to tools without a trip back to the toolbox. That is the most important thing and both are at the top of the heap.

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The more I work with affinity, the more I understand the approach to edit paths with the pointer tool but there are somethings that I found a little awkward at times:

 

1. You can access  the node tool via the shortcut (A), hit (A) again and it will go back to the previous tool you were using. Maybe it would be useful to specify to which tool you want to go back to, obviously this would depend on what you are working on, hence the possibility of specify the tool you want to go back to or the behavior of the shortcut.

 

2. Once in edit node mode, you can't drag the pointer to select any path, you have to click on each one to edit the nodes. It would be "faster" if you can select the paths only by dragging.

 

3. Is great that you can access "open" the nodes of the path you are working on by double clicking on it, but it would be as good if you can "close" the path to return to the move tool or any other tool by double clicking on it again.  

 

I don't know if this make sense, from my experience working with FH, Illustrator and Affinity, I'm trying to convey the best I can what I think can be improved.

 

I know that there are many features still not implemented and that there is a feature roadmap. I'm really enjoying working with Affinity, is a very "easy" yet powerful application.

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ket,

 

In regards to your #1, this is the default behaviour for every tool. No matter what tool you are using, if you hit the shortcut twice-it will take you to the previously selected tool. So for example if you are using the magnifying glass and you hit "a" it will switch to the Node tool but if you hit "a" again it will take you back to the magnifying glass tool. 

 

Hokusai

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One thing I'm finding that might be related to this topic...

 

when I'm adjusting nodes or using the pen tool and I want to zoom in or out with the option>command>space bar combination, randomly I will be left with the hand or pan tool icon when I let go of the zoom in/out combination. It makes sense I guess because as I'm releasing those keys I assume that the last key might be the space bar and so that's what's happening. But it's weird and I always have to hit the space bar to get back to the tool I was using before I zoomed in/out...

 

I just tried it in illustrator and it always goes back to the tool icon you were using before the zoom combination.

 

It's no biggie I guess, but it's just enough of a hiccup that takes you out of your groove a bit... 

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