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ewokee

[Fixed] CMYK - NOT working on Monitors with extended range!!!

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Hi, 

i got massive troubles when using CMYK mode on a monitor with extended range!

100 / 100 CMYK red looks like a full unmanaged RGB red. 

i´m using a eizo CG243W and a Dell u2413 both with extended color range.

seems designer isnt able to display real CMYK values. so it is far away from a professional print solution. 

here´s another bug which describes the problem really well. 

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/29146-cmyk-sliders-up-to-255/?p=141917

the real funny thing. red isnt red, that means on my monitors a 255RGB red occurs in 2 color versions.....

so far, let´s see if i get any reaction in here. 

regards from austria, 

florian

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Hi florian

 

Sorry for the delay in reply.

 

The team have recently fixed an issue with CMYK colours appearing different when the value is applied to another object so this may solve your issue also in a future update. When you say Designer is not able to display real CMYK values are you referring to the values being displayed in 8bit colour instead of percentage (which can be changed manually)?

 

 

 

on my monitors a 255RGB red occurs in 2 color versions

 

I shall take it that both monitors have been calibrated with the same profile so everything should look the same regardless of what monitor it is viewed on? 

 

Cheers


Serif Europe Ltd - Check the latest news at www.affinity.serif.com

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designer is displaying cmyk red like unmanaged rgb red. and yes, both monitors are hardware calibrated ffs. and i dont have any problems since 15 years displaying cmyk in adobe apps.... lets se what serif is going to do. but i dont expect any fix soon with this no reaction policy from their side. thats my opinion. and i gonna tell my experience to any prof. deisnger i knnow.

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Hi ewokee

 

As I can't physically see the problem on your screen I have to eliminate any variables, no matter how obvious they may be, so we can investigate the root of the issue. We have identified a discrepancy after some investigation so it shall be reported to the development team.


Serif Europe Ltd - Check the latest news at www.affinity.serif.com

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Ewokee,

How about some respect for the Serif team hey?

You are not the only user with issues.

These guys are a small team busting their nuts to get fixes identified and trialled then fully tested.

IMHO around 25-30% of issues here are 'user' created, so they need the parameters of any issue defined clearly to recreate.

Perhaps if you are so happy with Adobe you can jog back to them and save some posts....

Enjoy. P.

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yeah it stucks, way better than sucks. thanks for your kind words and your help! it so great to see such a professional handling with issues bugs. but stop calling this a professional software. if you cant even work in cmyk. na sorry, you can work in cmyk. but the proof result is a "little" bit different... but its gonna be fixed sooooooooon!

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Hi,

 

Sorry you're experiencing problems but I can assure you that our document's colour handling is end-to-end managed, there is no opportunity for something to be 'unmanaged'. All colour calculations are done in the document format. If you use an RGB value in a CMYK document then you will see a colour which is the result of asking for the RGB value (in the default RGB profile specified in preferences) converted to document CMYK, used for whatever you want in the document, then the resulting CMYK document is converted to your machine's RGB display profile.

 

In your example, RGB(255,0,0) [sRGB] should convert to CMYK(1,247,255,0) [WebCoated SWOP2] (according to Apple's ColorSync transforms). We would then use that CMYK(1,247,255,0) and if you draw that next to the CMYK(0,255,255,0) that you specified then, yes, it should look very similar - and it does! If you check Photoshop you'll see their results are basically identical to ours in my tests - and crucially, the results differ to Illustrator... The actual numbers you see will always be a bit different because they vary based on the colour transform engine in use - Apple has their own, Adobe has their own and we use LittleCMS (an OpenSource solution) but all have weaknesses and strengths...

 

I did note that when Chris was showing me the Windows version that changing between the different colour models did not show me the profiled version of the colour in the newly selected model (viewing CMYK(0,255,255,0) [WebCoated SWOP2] should show RGB (237,28,36) [sRGB] when changing to the RGB model which is true on the Mac software, but seems wrong on Windows)

 

Hope that helps,

Matt

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i gonna send some screenshots later... ever tested on a screen with more than 16mio colors? i am on 1mrd. on every screen... so cmyk is definitly oversaturated. also when i select cmyk 8bit when creating a domcument....

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cmyk with 255 values? srsly?

Yes, shock horror, I turned on the 8bit mode so I had more precision. I figured that would actually be beneficial in this case where I'm trying to show you where the numbers come from, rather than truncating unnecessarily... But, obviously, you're much too pro for me to help you? srsly?

 

I explained how the renderer works, and explained it gets the same results onscreen as Photoshop. If you think there's something wrong then you may also need to take it up with Adobe about their not-for-pros software too?

 

If you come across as receptive and interested, people will help, If you come across as high and mighty and more knowledgable than people who have written this stuff their whole professional career, you'll not get good responses. Srsly.

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the image is a comparison of an exported pdf from AD. both same cmyk values, both same color modes. 

left the one which can be produced in printing. right the false color version from AD. so maybe the only thing what is needed ist a "CMYK simulation preview"? 

and yes i know, austrian are way to harsh sometimes ;)

 

 

 

step4.png

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Okay, I notice that your simulation profile isn't the same as I thought you designed the document in? Perhaps I didn't spot that right... Here's a screenshot of what I'm seeing (and to be clear, the colours in Designer are one value different to those shown in Acrobat of the resulting PDF (small enough to be rounding issues in the colour transform engine) so I'm confident they're correct...

 

post-5-0-41829000-1488570667_thumb.png

 

I hope you can understand that what I'm saying is that if you have a CMYK document and you have a CMYK colour and an RGB colour, that the RGB will be converted from the RGB space specified in your preferences into the document's CMYK space, and that this has only one finite answer. It then becomes a CMYK value. In the case you're mentioning, the two CMYK values are actually extremely similar, so when they are converted from document CMYK space to screen colour profile RGB space, the answers will be very much the same too - so I wouldn't expect them to look much different. This is exactly what you get in the document view of Photoshop too, and it's what I'd expect to see...

 

If you're experiencing different results with some different profiles, then perhaps there is a colour transform engine bug? I can obviously look into this if you can provide a sample file? But failing that, I don't see why you would get any large differences - irrespective of your machine's display. Do you not get the same results as me in Photoshop?

 

Thanks again, and I do hope that you're not taking my posts in the wrong spirit, I'm simply trying to answer your questions with facts that I know to be true and hopefully we can either find a bug with a specific profile or agree that the results are as expected - there is no endemic problem or lack of professional feature - the software is doing what it should be doing and this can be backed up.

Matt

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first of all thanks for your answer.

my output profile in AD is set to "iso coated v2 300%". also my cmyk profile for working is set to this profile. i exported the rectangle out as a pdf/x-1a.

after opening the pdf with acrobat and checking the color, all is setup right. profile and color values of 100/100, and the color is displayed as a correct cmyk red. 

 

in the screenshot above you see the opened red pdf rectangle with color values picked, and behind is the same rectangle displayed in AD from where it was exported.

same profile same values, but way more red than the exported cmyk. so my conclusion is, that AD can work with profiles, but not really displaying the working color space right in cmyk? 

this may not occur that intensiv on display with sRGB color space limit. but here its impossible to create print files with a decent color accuracy.

 

maybe AD just only would ned a function like "show proof colors" and all is fine. i dont know.

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Thanks for your reply - can I ask what you see in Photoshop? I see the same results as in Designer (give or take small rounding differences) My screen is DCI-P3 (2016 MacBook Pro)

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hi again. in PS i see the same color as in de PDF exported from AD, the real CMYK red. when i pick the color in PS my RGB values for this CMYK red are R 155 / G 60 / B 25, which a the "real" and right values of a cmyk red, cause its far away from any 255 red. also when i open the exported CMYK pdf from AD in PS with the same profile active i´m getting the same values. so AD is doing all right, only the display simunlation of cmyk is far away from reality here :/

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I think the only way we'll get to the bottom of this is if you could send me a .afdesign file with everything setup as you're using it, and also your display profile... I'm willing to accept there's a bug - possibly even relating to our transform engine and your display profile - because the colours I see in Photoshop and Acrobat are the same as the ones I see onscreen in Designer... correctly managed and mapped from CMYK back into display RGB. Anything you could send to support@seriflabs.com would be a great help and may help me provide you some answers/fix a problem. Just mark the email for my attention and it'll get straight to me.

 

Thanks again,

Matt

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kk i´ll collect all the things. is skype or smth also possible for communication? would be nice, i could share screen and so on. but email is also working for me. 

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kk i´ll collect all the things. is skype or smth also possible for communication? would be nice, i could share screen and so on. but email is also working for me.

Email is just easier for me if that's okay- means I can get to it when I have chance. I have a young family (walking the youngest in the pram right now!) and super-busy at work, so I'm often free at unpredictable times! ;)

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take your time! my sons are 6 month and 2,5 years. so partyhard all the day. combined with selfemployed its really funny sometimes... ;)

 

and feeld free to contact me per skype or elsewhere for all questions coming up!

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