Could you help me with my export please?

[TinPianoMan]

I have a multi-layered file that I need to supply to a printer for printing onto vinyl about 3m wide.

 

I have converted all text to curves. The background comprises four layers created from a vector art original.

 

When I export the file as .eps, the printer's version shows the background pixellated and produces some flaws in the type that aren't visible in my final af.design edit.

 

I think the best way to supply this artwork is going to be as separate layers - 1. text and logo 2. border 3. background. But even then, I'm unclear how to do this without compromising the output.

 

I've tried to get up to speed with Export persona, but I don't quite understand it.

 

If you could take a look at the file for me and advise me on how best to export this, I'd really appreciate your help.

 

Thanks.

 

P.S. jpg for reference only. I will supply you with my afdesign.file in PM.

[MikeW]

I would be happy to review the file if you have not yet resolved the issue.

 

Question, do they have to have EPS or is a PDF acceptable? I generally supply PDFs to large format places but some insist on EPS files.

 

Mike

[Stephen_H]

Not sure what are the issues we need to address here. I'm not spotting huge problems in your image. Are these your concerns?

 

 

I agree with MikeW. I also usually supply PDFs. The problem with an EPS is its lack of viewable preview. You have to open it up into another application to see what it looks like so you're flying blind. The application you open it in is going to show only how it interprets EPS files – not how the EPS actually is. This might just be an EPS support issue rather than a quality of EPS issue.

[Stephen_H]

Ya know... a PDF is pretty much just an EPS with compression and a great preview. I'm way more confident using PDFs than EPSs now-a-days.

 

To test the quality of your EPS, run it through Adobe Distiller (if you have it). That will produce a PDF directly from the EPS and this will show if the weird stuff is in the EPS or not.

[Fixx]

Have you used some transparency/effects in the background? They get rasterized easily. Though your design looks like background as pixel image would be ok. Though I do not what vinyl printer expects, is is just normal CMYK process?

Text should appear perfect if there are no pixelation causing effects applied (in them or above them).

Test as PDF too..

[TinPianoMan]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I have some more info to give you.

 

First, here's what they ask for:

 

Vector Images

Artwork can be supplied formats such as:
.ai = Adobe Illustrator
.cdr = Corel Draw
.eps = Universal file type
.pdf = Universal file type
Mac users should supply an Adobe Illustrator File. This must be saved as Illustrator EPS and post script level 1 or 2. Select PC compatible.
All Vector files must have their fonts converted to curves, or have the fonts sent or embedded into the file if saved as text.
Unless stated, images should be saved at a scale of 1:1 and proportioned correctly to its positioning on the final panel.

 

So, yes a PDF would be ok. But after trying some exports as pdfs and viewing them, it's clear this is not straightforward.

 

If i work to scale with using 1px = 1mm, the pdf definition deteriorates at actual print size.

 

To combat this I created a same-size version with the artwork file 3420mm wide. 

 

I attach actual size views of these two comparisons as both afdesign file and pdf. Colour is not consistent and the hard shadow effect on the type has is either not rendered or not rendered cleanly.

 

 

[TinPianoMan]

Not sure what are the issues we need to address here. I'm not spotting huge problems in your image. Are these your concerns?

 

Screen Shot 2017-02-15 at 8.58.09 PM.jpg

 

I agree with MikeW. I also usually supply PDFs. The problem with an EPS is its lack of viewable preview. You have to open it up into another application to see what it looks like so you're flying blind. The application you open it in is going to show only how it interprets EPS files – not how the EPS actually is. This might just be an EPS support issue rather than a quality of EPS issue.

 

the fine keyline is something I was able to fix by overlapping the separate shapes i used to create the border. for some reason the butted shapes produced that gap some of the time.

 

the colour difference you identified is semi-deliberate - it's the bleed. i hadn't included it in my original so had to add it later but couldn't perfectly match it.

 

The orange background comprises two layers - one normal, one screened, with some fine adjustment to the curve shapes that make up the vector work.

 

The bleed area is two more layers created in the same way but not perfectly matched. So the entire background is four layers.

[MikeW]

Offer is still open to look at the file...

 

I don't know if I read/understood correctly or not. The screen shots. The design is the yellow/brown but comes out as the purplish color in the PDF?

 

Might be the blend mode...and RGB effect not hitting a CMYK PDF correctly. Dunno without seeing the file.

[TinPianoMan]

ok. yes, background should be orange but is becoming red. i will send you the file link. thanks Mike

[Stephen_H]

I suspect the colour shift is related to the change in colour format and transparency effects.

I suspect the rasterizing is due to AD not coping with that amount of complex vectors. (Even Illustrator sometimes tells you to rasterise or simplify very complex vectors at export)

 

To provide a bullet-proof repro file, I'd provide it as a PDF, but do the following steps first to make it as "simple" as possible to reduce the amount of interpretation the printers' software will have to do:

 

- Make sure you're working in CMYK first (this removes all last minute RGB to CMYK conversions at export/printing)

- Make sure your raster resolution of your document is higher than 72ppi. (200ppi will be more than enough for a banner print)

- Convert fonts to paths (which you've been doing already)

- Merge & rasterise the background and the text's drop shadow into a single pixel-based image layer. (this will remove all transparency. i.e.: the Screen effect of the background and the Multiply of the drop shadow)

- Leave just the outline and the white text as vector outlines with transparency as Normal

- Export as a PDF/X compliant PDF for safety sake

 

What you are left with is a very simple collection of basic vector shapes sitting on a single image. No complex shapes, no wrong colour modes, no transparency... just nothing to be interpreted incorrectly. I'll be genuinely shocked if you still have these issues after this.

[Fixx]

And text shadows would best to make as duplicate text layers set as black, effect shadows render as pixels (and make elements below as pixel elements too).

[TinPianoMan]

Thank you Stephen, Fixx and Mike for your help. Really appreciate your taking the time and trouble to respond.

 

After some further experimentation following your input, I decided to rebuild the background from scratch and keep it to a single layer with no screens or blends.

 

I also changed the shadow FX and duped the text layers as suggested - I even worked out how to include a transparent layer between the white and black for offset shadowing to match the logo text.

 

File dimensions are s/s to banner print size: 3420 x 880 mm. DPI set to 200.

 

Color format CMYK/8.

 

Color profile FOGRA29.

 

Export compatibility PDF/X-4.

 

File size is now down from 17.1MB to 3.5MB.

 

So far, so good.

 

But every time I try to export this as a PDF, the export stalls and never completes.

 

Any thoughts on why this is happening?

[MikeW]

TPM,

 

The export of the PDF from the file I uploaded on dropbox for you took an incredibly long time. I know I made tea, sat out on the porch and read while consuming the tea while AD was exporting.

 

If I had to guess in lieu of actually timing the export, a good 15 minutes was about the amount of time.

 

Mike

[TinPianoMan]

:D  In that case, I'll let it run. I'm used to exports in AP and AD taking a few seconds. Thanks Mike. I'll give it as long as it needs and report back.

[TinPianoMan]

Yep, just needed to be a little more patient. All seems to be working to plan, so let's see what the print shop makes of it this time.

 

Thanks again.

[MikeW]

Wonderful result.

 

Mike

[TinPianoMan]

So... it seems we still have problems!

 

The print shop's spec page says: 

Artwork can be supplied formats such as:
.ai = Adobe Illustrator
.cdr = Corel Draw
.eps = Universal file type
.pdf = Universal file type
Mac users should supply an Adobe Illustrator File. This must be saved as Illustrator EPS and post script level 1 or 2. Select PC compatible.

 

but even with the layers supplied in PDF format, they cannot reproduce the artwork correctly.

 

The proof has the same problems as before plus some additional ones!

 

So I am going to try EPS and one other trick I read here after a bit of searching.

 

It seems if I save the entire file as .afdesign I can then change this to .ai and it works like an .ai export. Am I correct in that assumption or have I misunderstood?

 

I tried it and I was able to open the .ai in AD, but as I don't have AI I can't see how it would convert.

 

Simplifying layers?

 

One other query - I have used a grouped layer of flecks in vector format to create the effect of flaking paint - what is the best way to incorporate these layers? At the moment, I have four side-by-side individually rotated/flipped layers which are then duped to intensify the effect. How could I bring this into a single layer without losing the vector format?

 

For some reason, the printshop's proof is picking up a keyline around each of these 4 side-by-side layers even though there is no keyline there - see attached.

 

Here's my layers snapshot: https://db.tt/7eBpQvvBJG

[MikeW]

What PDF profile do they use to print with? Your original file was set up using US SWOP if I recall.

 

I would recommend loosing the transparency and recoloring the background itself. Yep, more work, but it isn't going to change depending upon whatever they are using to open your file. It seems obvious they are opening the PDF in something and likely CorelDraw.

 

Keyline. It is a stitching artifact, not a keyline. It is from the use of transparency and flattening. Adjustment layers are going to result in transparency flattening. If those flecks are vector, raise them above any effect that will make them become a bitmap and don't use effects on them.

[Alfred]

It seems if I save the entire file as .afdesign I can then change this to .ai and it works like an .ai export. Am I correct in that assumption or have I misunderstood?

 

I'm afraid you've misunderstood. You can't change a *.afdesign file to AI format by changing the filename extension, any more than you can change a cat to a dog by naming it Fido. ;) What you can do, however, is export to PDF and then change the extension from .pdf to .ai; when you do this, Adobe Illustrator should treat it like any other AI file that has been saved with PDF compatibility. :)

[MikeW]

I'm afraid you've misunderstood. You can't change a *.afdesign file to AI format by changing the filename extension, any more than you can change a cat to a dog by naming it Fido. ;) What you can do, however, is export to PDF and then change the extension from .pdf to .ai; when you do this, Adobe Illustrator should treat it like any other AI file that has been saved with PDF compatibility. :)

 

And in general this is a bad practice. But it can, under certain circumstances, work out fine. 

[TinPianoMan]

Thanks Alfred. I'm not surprised - it didn't seem right when I thought I read it, which I clearly didn't. That also explains why Fido keeps ignoring the bones I give him.  :)

 

The PDF shuffle must be what I read somewhere - I'll give it a try. Thanks!

[Alfred]

Thanks Alfred. I'm not surprised - it didn't seem right when I thought I read it, which I clearly didn't. That also explains why Fido keeps ignoring the bones I give him.  :)

 

LOL. :D

 

The PDF shuffle must be what I read somewhere - I'll give it a try. Thanks!

 

As Mike points out, it's generally bad practice. However, there may be some situations where it's better than nothing!

[TinPianoMan]

What PDF profile do they use to print with? Your original file was set up using US SWOP if I recall.

 

I would recommend loosing the transparency and recoloring the background itself. Yep, more work, but it isn't going to change depending upon whatever they are using to open your file. It seems obvious they are opening the PDF in something and likely CorelDraw.

 

Keyline. It is a stitching artifact, not a keyline. It is from the use of transparency and flattening. Adjustment layers are going to result in transparency flattening. If those flecks are vector, raise them above any effect that will make them become a bitmap and don't use effects on them.

Thanks Mike. I checked with the printshop and they say they open PDFs in either CorelDraw or AI.

 

I've learned a new term today - stitching artifact. I knew it wasn't technically a keyline, but at least you knew what I meant. :-) I;m going to have to look into the best way to do this from here.

 

One possibility is the do the PDF shuffle Alfred has referred to. I've just downloaded AI on a free 7-day trial, so I'll see how the twice-converted file looks when opened in AI.

 

As I'm working at the limits of my tech skills, I'm not exactly clear what you mean about the transparency element.  

 

I've discovered if I export as .eps, the erase layers are converted to black.I need to find a way to output this so it can be used to screen the text and create a flaking paint effect.

.

[MikeW]

If you downloaded the AI trial, use it. Export from AD in parts to SVG using only elements that will export as vector and open them and combine them in AI. What I mean is to turn off adjustment layers and if you have transparent objects or other FX on elements, turn them off.

 

Start a new AI document at 100% size. Open the SVG export(s) as files instead of Placing them in AI. Copy and paste those elements in AI.

 

If you have an image, import (place) that directly in AI.

 

They are using some PDF output CMYK color profile. You really need to ask them which it is and I would be surprised if any place outside the USA is using US SWOP.

 

But you still ought to recolor the background to achieve the color you desire. That is reasonably easy in AI as you can select an object and opt to Select Same for the fill color.

[MikeW]

BTW, they really ought not to be opening PDFs, but especially in AI. CD does a better job, but a PDF is more or less a "baked" final format and that, if supplied, is what ought to be used to send to the RIP. But large format printers are notorious for old work-flows like this. And it is wrong in the modern age (i.e., after the year 2000). There are large format printers I use that send the PDF direct to the RIP. I wouldn't use one that opened a PDF for editing.

 

Which is why, after all your efforts of using AI, send them the AI file with the type converted to outlines (curves). This is another practice I refuse to comply with and haven't ever, since 1989, ever sent a native file anywhere in the world.