massive (CMYK) color management problems and such ... ready for professional use?

[dasigna]

//EDIT: formerly known as 'the big disappointment'//

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

dont know if i am in the right place for my complaints, admins just might feel free to change the category.

 

ust tried the designer/photo-combo. although theres actually no trial available, the current offer made me weak. so bought both and the book, installed and ...

just got quite disappointed!


having a approved win7pro 64bit-system with two calibrated nec spectraview reference monitors, calibrated epson 3880 printer and soft-rip for cmyk proofing. this setup is reliable, well maintained and flawlessly working with adobe illustrator, photoshop, indesign and lightroom as well as corel draw for dtp and photo editing same as web development.

every application is giving consistent results under the given color management enviroment. thus said before describing the affinity-experiences to indicate this might be not a newbies issue ...

so to af designer and photo:

first serious issue i am encountering is a quite incorrect color presentation when using cymk-incorpotated files. colors here are far to vibrant and quite "over the top".
looks like viewing a rgb-pic under wrong conditions as wide-gammut with no correction.

profiles set throughout all applications are eciRGB or srgb/adobe rgb respective iso coated/uncoated v2.
as long as in rgb, affinity follows the other applications - completely going nuts in cymk. every application does this great too, exept for the affinitys. theres 'flashing' colors that neighter represent the correct appearance nor theire useable in any way.
as the color management setup showed absolutely no problems so far, i assume the problem is up to affinity.
having hardware calibrated monitors with 16bit lut, and experiencing affinity isnt able to handle existing 16bit cymk tifs too, there might be something that affinity cant handle regarding the monitor-assigned profiles?

btw: when i am applying a srgb-emulation to one of the monitors (as i am doing when developing for web) the colors in affinity are getting better for cymk... but that cant be the solution, as this is not useable for all other applications which can handle the monitor profiles the right way.
switching my monitor profiles to native srgb as suggested in some other threads, changes nothing at all. apart from that it cant be managed that way through windows due to hardware-calibration.

so what does affinity wrong? affinity is praysed for being used by professionals, but how would they, experiencing such issues??

maybe its me whos doing something wrong with affinity, but why does it work well with all other programs???
any hint for maybe overlooked things highly appreciated.


theres some other things too, i've experienced already within the first few hours:

- no support for 16bit cymk tif-files (big downpoint, as there are many)
- no color control/preview when exporting bitmaps /.png/.jpg (which is quite sad too when theres no consistent color-conversion as it seems)
- no recognition of postscript-printer (soft-rip) and available deactivation of printer profile (because colors are handled by rip - adobe does this as well as corel...)
- no option for printing without profile overall - quite important for printing calibration targets for profiling (as well as targeting the rip) ...
- no color inspection tool without clicking (like info-panel in adobe, or maybe havent just found yet)
- using exported corel-files as .ai does not work in affinity, have to save them in ai again. great clincher as well.
- the dark ui has far to harsh contrasts, especially within menus
- startup-time is worse 30-40 sec plus on a real fast engine (plenty of ram plus ssd - adobe and corel only takes a fraction of it)
- ...?


having just made simple setup and some research, maybe ill find other issues, maybe experiencing some change to the better, but so far there isnt much hope i am able to replace my print workflow with affinity at all. if this problems (at least the color-thing) wont be solved soon, theres no way using affinity for (my) cymk-workflow. and if this persists until the upcoming publisher is revealed, it will be unuseable for this too!

 

really would be glad being able to dismiss adobe and corel (the sooner the better), but obviously theres completely no way for that up till now ...

so at the moment regarding the buy as kind of support for affinity and ongoing development to the better... and: hoping for production-useable versions within version 1.


sad.



and just as a remark:
its quite a pity one cant order designer, photo and book within one single subscription - maybe i am too dumb for, but it required three individual oders to get all of them...
and - it may be some good idea for the future to offer bundles (once they work correctly of course!).

[brunzenstein]

Sir!

With all due respect - your statement is dead wrong.

 

You compare a 13 head small companies evolutionary brand new first version software for a meager 50 bucks one time payment to a Adobe product 20 years in the working which can cost (depending on user) thousands of dollars in subscription. Surely there is still much work to do for Serif but the program as it stands can blow Photoshop out of the pool for certain professional tasks.

 

Besides, the developers are de facto on time responsive to user postings like no other company on the market - and I'm a professional Apple user since the famous SE/30.

Try asking Adobe anything online - you will have little fun in doing so.

 

Your statement is not only biased but views the matter imho with a distorted look.

 

No pun intended Sir, but my personal view only.

[dasigna]

???

sorry - i dont think you have read all of my post correctly! neighter am i biased nor having distorted look.

but theres a problem (at least one big!)

i highly appreciate the efforts of serif - but the only thing i claimed is the fact that its not useable for professional use and replace of adobe/corel so far... for me!

and i think the color thing is something to be solved, the more as the developers claim it to be 'used by professionals' - so what you are trying to tell? maybe theres some misunderstanding going o on your side?

sincerely - i am not a fan of adobe or corel (the longer the less!) but i am forced to use them for work until a solution comes up that can beat them. hoped this may be affinity, but its not... so far.

thats all i claimed, and would be very happy if at least the color-problem could be solved to try further. which is what i want.

no pun - just practical considerations!!

[nezumi]

While some of your criticism might be legit its hard to read through due to hysteric nature of your post. I am sure everybody are impressed by your deep disappointment expressed by using multiple exclamation points and by your sadness. I would just like to comment on those:

 

- no color inspection tool without clicking (like info-panel in adobe, or maybe havent just found yet)

Check before you enter in panic mode. Just go to VIEW/STUDIO/INFO. Done.

- using exported corel-files as .ai does not work in affinity, have to save them in ai again. great clincher as well.

Well, how about exporting them as PDF then?

- the dark ui has far to harsh contrasts, especially within menus

For me it is perfect. You can use UI Gamma slider to change contrast.

- startup-time is worse 30-40 sec plus on a real fast engine (plenty of ram plus ssd - adobe and corel only takes a fraction of it)
You got to be kidding :D Adobe software became a slow hog - in fact thats  the main reason why I decided to purchase Affinity. When Photoshop starts I can make a tea. When Illustrator starts I can make tea, sandwich and consume both. Affinity starts on my rig in about 5 seconds (no ssd). I just cant believe that on the same rig Adobe software starts for you faster then Affinity. Thats some "alternative facts" right there.

- ...?

I am guessing that this means you are suspecting plenty of different things you could listed here? Because it is sooooo bad in your opinion.

Why all that drama, man? You act like you have spent a fortune and somebody lied to you while fact is that you had some unrealistic expectations and reality didnt met your fantasies. In some cases you didnt even bother to check properly if the option you are looking for exists and you started to criticize first.

Like brunzenstein said - this is a first version of a software, for crying out loud. And first version that already can be used instead Photoshop and Illustrator. Sure, some things are missing and some can be improved. But those guys are on it, Affinity is not being bloated with some nonsense like Photoshop with useless 3D printing or video editing. Designer is WAY faster then Illustrator. Handles heavy, complicated objects like a dream while Illustrator - poor thing - is barely hanging there. Also - native affinity format is resulting in much smaller files. This is already software that is pleasure to work with. For REALLY good price. So good in fact that my friend who is programmer and needs gfx editing programs rarely purchased today both Photo and Designer. Because for that price? Why not!

I want to be well understood - I am not against pointing out whats wrong and what can be improved. I am just not a big fan of drama queens.

[verysame]

Btw, light UI is planned and coming in the next release.

[AlainP]

"Drama Queens"... I like that ! :) 

[LilleG]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the "drama queen" bit here.  The OP stated what was not working for him and asked for suggestions that he might have overlooked and what he got was a bunch of attacks.  And BTW, the OP is not the only one using exclamation points.

[A_B_C]

I would like to second your words, Lille. Maybe it’s because English is not my native tongue, but I did not have the impression that the original poster was overly offensive in his comments, and I think he pointed to some areas that would indeed reward improvements. Wish we could sort out this color management issue …  :)

[dasigna]

seems an interesting thing i've started here ... :-)

come on guys - why so haffy?
whats that kind of forums? pure fan-boy-base or real exchange place?
some replies just sound like i was bashing something... calm down and read again, that might help.
'drama-queen'? really nice term, but no real hit - and 'drama-mode', dear nezumi, is something completely different! (attention: exclamation-mark again). tend to think your reply is quite more close to that... no?

yeah, in fact i am sad about what i've experienced up till now.

and only re-reply to one thing that really startled me (as well as your kind reply): yes its true - the startup time especially of designer is ... really immense. no clue for that, but real. sorry. and yes - AI, PS and CDR only take seconds. real and sorry again.

if you have read my post well enough, there wouldnt have been any need for any offense.
again: i appreciate whats going on opposits of adobe and corel, and i honour that theres a competitor coming up!

yes, affinity is still young. and yes, its not that big player as the old bulls.
but is that an excuse? and if - for what? affinity themselves claim to be professional software - 'made by professionals for professionals'. so what?
no complaints about because its 'professional'? ... because its 'still young'?
not mentioning any problems or issues, only not to get offended? or for the sake of the developers, not to get bothered with (this time) disappointed users?
they wont learn from those who are only clapping hands and praise their greatness.

they deserve commendation, sure. but they deserve even more the experience of sad users and their honest feelings when facing things they never expected - and that tiny ugly color thing is one of those.
i am using graphics and photo-editing software for more than 25 years, and its the first time i'm running into this. o.k., always sometimes its time for the first time. but i did not expect that from an upcoming professional software like ...
and if so, it might have been more appropriate for a hint what might going wrong? dont know. sorry.

maybe i've read just too much of praises and thank-you's to the developers and being therefore thus disappointed?
maybe its just my fault to believe this would be easy.
at least not the last.

btw... did i mention that i'll stick to the buy in regards of honouring the develpment? thought i did.
and all the time i am asking myself, where or when i might have mentioned affinity is 'sooooo bad'?
for sure its not! (...another one of those omnious exclamation-marks btw.)

it might be great, but theres at least some serious issue going on with color management, beside some minor others that empedes or at least makes it difficult for professional use by me (!) explanations already given above.

no. i did not want to be offense. i just was... disappointed. yes. and i am still.
but theres hope (as AF is still young - someone mentioned that... somewhere?) and i like the thought some near days it might do a big step to the better. very much indeed. meanwhile i will keep on trying to get things worked out and stick to it (affinity). i dearly promise.

what i dont like is the sound of some replys here. but hey: thats not the end of affinity (nor of the world) that myself is having some problems with it and especially with using for professional stuff. so make some tea, eat a cookie or two and the worlds o.k. again. alright?

thanks for attention and have a nice day.

ahhh - and thanks of course also for those kind replys too.




ps:
i still wont hate it if someone might have any clue or if any mod or developer might join in on occasion. :-)

[Aeros4]

ps:
i still wont hate it if someone might have any clue or if any mod or developer might join in on occasion. :-)

 

I'm afraid it's a sign of the times dasigna. Before the internet we had road rage, now we have an added element, "Forum Ranting" thus society just keeps getting worse. :(

[MikeW]

seems an interesting thing i've started here ... :-)

 

come on guys - why so haffy?

whats that kind of forums? pure fan-boy-base or real exchange place?

...

 

As you have figured out by now, some/many here are quick to defend not only the applications, but by extension their own rationale for investing effort in abandoning another application or two and the money to invest in the Serif software—no matter how little that is.

 

The largest amount of flack I have received in the past here has been in suggesting work-flow enhancements or down-right changes. I personally believe that AD (I don't have, and likely won't have, APhoto so I have no judgment there) takes longer for me to do most tasks than other software.

 

AD does start up faster here now since the last or second to last Windows beta. And I suspect Serif will continue to improve on both startup speed and operational speed as it continues to add and improve features. But, AD isn't there yet. And I don't make art. I just create supporting design for layout applications, ads, fliers, necessary logo work, etc.

 

I will continue to utilize AD in some of the work I do if for no other reason to keep honing my own skill in using it. Which is a luxury I have as a single-person shop these days. I can pick and choose which vector or image editing applications I use, even if most of the work needs turned back over in one of a couple formats, I can still do some to most of the work in AD before porting it over for final work or to do a simple Save As.

 

Now if I could only find that darn exclamation mark...Oh, found it !!!

 

Take care, Mike

[nezumi]

@dasigna - I am not offended but amused. And that childish rhetoric that I am "fanboy" can be easily turned around by calling you a "hater". Since we are not in the first grade however - can we put to rest that silliness?
You know what I find specially funny? None of the nice people even remotely tried to help you or mentioned anything useful. Social acceptance, pat on the back, "youre ok buddy", "society just keeps getting worse". Oh, the tear in my eye - so deep, so beautiful... :wub:
In the end I was the one who actually tried and at least answered definitely one of your questions: now you know where to look for info panel. Youre welcome. Meanwhile the rest worked hard on... keeping your morale high, I guess? The triumph of form over substance was certainly strong in those deeply inspiring messages of support :rolleyes: .
I'll stay sarcastic but trust me, if I find anything helpful I will share. You may not like packaging, but inside you may find something useful. Unlike in, you know... "come here, I'll give you a hug" kinda messages. Harsh love.

[A_B_C]

Hi nezumi,

 

I have been around here for some time, and the forum has always been of the friendly and helpful sort. Shouldn’t we keep it that way? I am sorry, but the only constructive detail you contributed to this thread was pointing at the Info panel. I don’t see why you had to make so many words besides that, if you were intending to speak to the point. I don’t believe there is a reason to introduce a sarcastic tone here.

 

The other issues that were mentioned in the original post are unfortunately of a kind that no forum member will be able to help the poster with. Either they were due to his particular setup (startup time), or they concerned functionality not already implemented (CMYK 16-Bit TIFs), or they were of a sort difficult to assess while not being able to work with the actual hardware setup or the hardware-software interplay (color management problems).

 

Thank you,

Alex

[dasigna]

 

ps:

i still wont hate it if someone might have any clue or if any mod or developer might join in on occasion. :-)

 

I'm afraid it's a sign of the times dasigna. Before the internet we had road rage, now we have an added element, "Forum Ranting" thus society just keeps getting worse. :(

 

 

yeah - this seems to be. sad again :huh:

 

 

@nezumi - hmmm.

is 'fanboy' more childish rhetoric than 'drama-queen'? sorry if i hit you with that. i didnt meant to. sorry.

i apologize and thank you sincerely for your kind advice you've given.

i dont know who you are - you dont know who am i, but one thing seems to be quite sure - you still have to learn something: reading (carefully), understanding and of course reading between the lines. that might help you further on.

anyway. im not here to discuss or fight in such an unobjective manner. you started it, now you want to finish it. thats o.k. lets put that silliness to a rest. agreed.

and if we can do one another one more favour (or lets call it gentlemen agreement) - lets stay out of each others posts. alright?

 

live long and prosper. thanks again for your invest and kind regards. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

thanks for every other remark. i appreciate that, even if it might not be helpful in means of a direct way.

[R C-R]

With no disrespect intended toward anyone, I think this topic would have received a very different response if it had been titled differently & focused on a concise description of the issue, which as far as I can tell is CMYK color management.

[dasigna]

With no disrespect intended toward anyone, I think this topic would have received a very different response if it had been titled differently & focused on a concise description of the issue, which as far as I can tell is CMYK color management.

 

hmmm... theres some truth in it, and i think thats my fault - but my disappointment not beeing able to kick off those nasty adobes etc. right now, was (is) really big :)

 

is there any way to change the title over again?

[nezumi]

hmmm... theres some truth in it, and i think thats my fault - but my disappointment not beeing able to kick off those nasty adobes etc. right now, was (is) really big :)

 

is there any way to change the title over again?

Hey man, Sorry for being overly sarcastic. I might have been wrong about you - no hard feelings.

To change subject you should click on your nickname in the top, left corner, choose "My content", then pick the thread you want to edit (if you are already here just go to the first post in this thread and proceed with next step). When it opens, In the right corner of your post you will see small "Edit" - click this and then choose "Use Full Editor" button. This will allow you to change subject.

[F_Kal]

I got here because I'm keeping an eye on all color management topics in the forum. The technical issues raised by @dasigna are valid, and me among others would love some feedback by the Affinity team; the thread has trailed off however and I doubt anybody would be interested in reading through all that (my comment has sadly added to the bulk)

 

@dasigna, I suggest that for everybody's benefit you report the CMYK rendering issues you are facing in the bugs section of the forum; same for the problem with the corel ai files - a separate thread for each problem would be the best way to address these since they are not related - I'm sure the team would be interested to know that there are things broken (plus that you get the satisfaction that you are working with the team)!

 

Also, [here]'s a thread in the feature requests section that discusses why 16-bit CMYK was not implemented  - You may wish to reopen the discussion (hmm, I'm not sure if reopening it or creating a new feature request is the better approach  - somebody more experienced may wish to comment on that) and add your voice to why it's useful having it.

 

And of course, I'd make a new thread in the Features Requests section for every feature that I wish to see implemented (eg. "soft-rip and printing without profile") !

 

Hope this helps!

[gdenby]

FWIW, I had a bunch of old .ai files in a folder, and tried to open them in AD. Only got a black page. Upon inspecting the file contents in an editor, I found that all were exported from Corel Draw 10, which I believe was the last version Illustrator also opened. Also slightly predates Illustrator outputing .pdf.

[dasigna]

... nearly regarded this thread already dead.

 

 

I got here because I'm keeping an eye on all color management topics in the forum. The technical issues raised by @dasigna are valid, and me among others would love some feedback by the Affinity team; the thread has trailed off however and I doubt anybody would be interested in reading through all that (my comment has sadly added to the bulk)

 

@dasigna, I suggest that for everybody's benefit you report the CMYK rendering issues you are facing in the bugs section of the forum; same for the problem with the corel ai files - a separate thread for each problem would be the best way to address these since they are not related - I'm sure the team would be interested to know that there are things broken (plus that you get the satisfaction that you are working with the team)!

 

Also, [here]'s a thread in the feature requests section that discusses why 16-bit CMYK was not implemented  - You may wish to reopen the discussion (hmm, I'm not sure if reopening it or creating a new feature request is the better approach  - somebody more experienced may wish to comment on that) and add your voice to why it's useful having it.

 

And of course, I'd make a new thread in the Features Requests section for every feature that I wish to see implemented (eg. "soft-rip and printing without profile") !

 

Hope this helps!

 

theres already a newer thread assigned to the cmyk-thing here, but there arent many with the same problem as it seems... so it maybe might not be better suited for the bugs-section at all? might be i am wrong to this.

i dont really know for now what could be wrong with this, and any feedback regarding the way affinity might or might not handle profiles other than the rest could be helpful - but there rarely arent any so far ...

 

but if theres any chance to get better feedback when posting several threads i may think over that again.

 

16-bit cymk tiff really might be worth a separate thread, as the reason why this isnt possible with AP would be quite interesting.

 

 

FWIW, I had a bunch of old .ai files in a folder, and tried to open them in AD. Only got a black page. Upon inspecting the file contents in an editor, I found that all were exported from Corel Draw 10, which I believe was the last version Illustrator also opened. Also slightly predates Illustrator outputing .pdf.

 

FWIW? easy: huge archive!

... the issue here maybe seems to be one thing (but couldnt get it verified by now): the .ai's from corel might suffer from sort of correct (or any) .pdf-implementation. have to investigate further on this, because its also the case with .ai's exported from corel up to x7.

 

thanks for feedback. appreciate this. (at least its not only me :) )

[MikeW]

CorelDraw's AI export doesn't include a PDF portion, that's why they will not import into AD. CD's EPS files do come in nicely, though.

 

Mike

[dasigna]

CorelDraw's AI export doesn't include a PDF portion, that's why they will not import into AD. CD's EPS files do come in nicely, though.

 

Mike

 

yes. but honestly, that (eps) doesnt make things much better here, as there are eighter .ai-exports which were never processed in AI (because used somewhere else) or native CDRs. none of those can be read directly from AD. eighter way - they have to be processed one more time before usable in AD, which is as annoying as time consuming ...

 

regarding the pdf portion from CDR as AI export - that sums up my thoughts (fears).

 

would be definitely a great thing if affinity could implement a CDR-filter! :)

 

(btw that was originally the main -or at least a big- reason starting to use CDR long ago - they had plenty of import/export filters from the beginning and they worked great ever since)

[F_Kal]

@dasigna glad to hear that you made a newer thread about the CMYK issues - it seems that TonyB is on it, so I'm sure you (and along with you everybody else who has/will encounter a similar issue) will get to the bottom of this!

[MikeW]

yes. but honestly, that (eps) doesnt make things much better here, as there are eighter .ai-exports which were never processed in AI (because used somewhere else) or native CDRs. none of those can be read directly from AD. eighter way - they have to be processed one more time before usable in AD, which is as annoying as time consuming ...

 

regarding the pdf portion from CDR as AI export - that sums up my thoughts (fears).

 

would be definitely a great thing if affinity could implement a CDR-filter! :)

 

(btw that was originally the main -or at least a big- reason starting to use CDR long ago - they had plenty of import/export filters from the beginning and they worked great ever since)

 

If you have CD, you can likely automate by recording a macro and/or use a conversion macro (I think CD ships with one) to batch convert an entire folder of AI/CDR/EPS files to PDF. Just let it run over night.

 

Alternatively, see if InkScape can open them. If it can, open them and export on an as needed basis.

 

Mike

[dasigna]

@ MikeW... 'batch convert an entire folder' - that sounds great and (really) thanks for your kind idea! theres only one tiny little problem: files are sorted related to clients & projects and within per date and item. sounds weird maybe, but thats how it is - and i even wont count folders!!! B)

 

so as long as theres not direct filter, i fear i have to treat the files as needed... sad but true. but first have see what else is going on with AD before really digging into this.

 

@F_Kal... hopefully this will be the case.