[ADe] Struggling with color seperation

[j.lyon]

Could someone please give me a quick description of how  print color separated film positives in AD?  I have the raster portion of the image separated using Separation Studio and I imported that file back into AD.  I can see the layers as film positives.  Now I need to add the vector images back in and then print them off on film.  

 

There are detailed instructions online for doing this in AI, PS and Corel but I can't find anything on doing this in AD.  Surely there is a way to print seps in AD and I have to believe it is a common task.  Please forgive me if this is a well covered question on the forum someplace.  I tried searching the forum but maybe Im not using the right search terms.

 

Any help would be much appreciated! 

[MikeW]

The only way I can see this working is if Sep Studio used spot colors for the channels and AD recognized those channels as spot colors and you exported to PDF and printed the seps to film using Acrobat. 

 

Mike

[j.lyon]

I sure hope there is a way to do the seps.  Ive invested a LOT of hours learning AD with the workbook over the last month and I really like it/want it to be my design program.  I thought the Sep Studio program would let me print the films directly from there but now I find out I have to seperate the file, then send it back to my design program (AD I hope) to then add the vector elements back in and print the films. 

 

I am able to open the seperated file in AD and it has the positives all laid out in layers.  So I suppose I could print those layers out.  I guess I could add the vector elements to the appropriate layer that corresponds with the color of the vector element.  

 

Or - I could leave the vector elements in and send it all over to Separation Studio.  Then when I separate it and send it back to AD, those elements will already be where they need to be.  The down side is, those elements wont be as sharp as they could have been because they will be raster elements at that point.

[j.lyon]

I am still working on coming up with some sort of work-around for how to do color separations in AD (as it appears many have tried in the past).  With so many people needing this seemingly simple feature, I find it mind-boggling that AD does not have this capability right out front.  Had I known this about AD, I would not have chosen it as my design app.  Im still hopeful that I can find a way to get around the issue until it becomes a feature.  

 

*  Does anyone know if it is in the works for a future update?  If it's not even a pipe dream yet, then I am going to have to drop AD and start learning Corel.  I just hate that Corel doesn't run native on Mac and of course I hate the price tag.  

 

*  Are there any suggestions for another app I can use to separate my designs done in AD? I shelled out $800 for Separation Studio and then found out that it doesn't really do the whole job of separating the designs.  It is basically just an expensive color tweaking tool that then issues the separations of only the raster elements.  It doesn't even print those.  You have to take it back into your design app to add any vector elements back in and print it.  So now Im a little gun-shy about forking over another $200-300 clams for yet another app that may or may not do what I need.

 

*  What about Affinity Photo?  I just got it the other day and have not had time to play with it yet.  Might there be a way to use it to do seps? 

[MikeW]

Do you also have Accurip?

 

I haven't dug out one of my separate studio files, but do the channels come into AD named? If not, can you identify them in AD?

 

Anyway, if you are bringing in the dcs eps and you can identify the channels, and if the extra elements you create in AD can have a swatch created as a spot and named exactly as the channels, you may be able to print the seps through Accurip for the film.

 

But if you are wanting or needing to go to a pdf with spot seps, I think you may be out of luck.

[j.lyon]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks again for taking the time to help!  Yes I do have Accurip Black Pearl. I just got it set up with my epson 1430.  I am brand new to this tho so have yet to actually print anything thru it.

 

Im still trying to figure out what exactly I do get back in AD when I import the eps created in Sep Stu.  There seems to be a corresponding layer for each color.  And it's in "film" form (as opposed to color).  But I haven't found names for the layers (I presume you are referring to the colors?)  But they could actually be in there somewhere.  I notice there IS a check box in the AD print setup menu for inserting registration marks and "page information".  Might that include the page name you refer to?

 

Anywho...I am just doing seps for my 6 color manual press so Im pretty sure I can identify which color each layer represents.  As for naming the swatches, I think I can do that but have not explored swatches much except for setting up a swatch palette for the design.  So Im with you up to about that point.

 

What I was thinking is that a person could just paste (a black version of) the vector elements back into the design on the appropriate color/layer.  Of course, the vector elements (which is almost always text) would have to use one of the colors from the raster element to avoid having to do separate screens just for those elements.

 

One problem I see with that is; those vector elements need to also be on the white underbass screen.  So there would be some tedious pasting/positioning involved.

 

Please forgive if Im babbling nooby nonsense.  And I know things that work in theory don't always work in practice.  But I tend to think outside the box...way outside the box.  In fact, I haven't been inside the box for years! But it has paid off big a few times in my life.

[MikeW]

It's not going to work.

 

I just dug out an archived file (and a real ugly one at that...). The channels are not spot color identified.If I try to separate the channels--the actual pixel information--so they end up on their own layers, it doesn't work at the PDF nor print stage. There is no way to recolor those layers with a spot color so they end up separated. 

 

I'll keep playing with it, but I at this point in time do not see an Affinity solution. Also please not that I do not have Affinity Photo, so perhaps the channels can be pulled apart and recolored--but I don't have confidence that this can happen.

 

Mike

[MikeW]

BTW, the issue is that AD doesn't support multi-channel files so the file loads without the Pantone information when loading the EPS, but with a multi-channel PSD it simply will not load.

 

As mentioned, I don't have AP so I don't know if it has multi-channel support or not.

 

Mike

[j.lyon]

Now we're in territory that is definitely over my head.  

 

I am getting back an eps from Sep Stu that I open in AD and it has the films separated as layers.  And since I did the design, I am able to re-label which color goes with which screen/layer.  Last night I printed a film of just the white underbase.  It is a version where I just left the text in and seperated it all in Sep Studio.  I wanted to see how "pixelated" the text would be.  And...as expected...the text is pretty jagged.  I havent tried it out on the press yet but I doubt it will be very hi quality text on a shirt.  But Im going to produce a few of these....half-assed attempts and then take them all out to the press to see how they look in print.

 

Would it help if I attached my file here of the eps Im getting back from Sep Stu so you can see what Im seeing?  If so, I;ll do that in a while when I get to the other computer.

[j.lyon]

Another idea I have for getting a crisp version of the text onto my screens....

 

What if I go ahead and run my half tone/shaded "raster" elements of the design thru Sep Studio and then print the films without the crisp "vector" text elements.  Then. I could print the vector elements on seperate films.  Then, before burning the screens, I could stack the 2 films together carefully and expose them.  Then, as long as the vector text elements match one of the colors in the raster part of the design, it wouldnt require extra screens for the vector elements.  Does that sound worth a try?

[MikeW]

You can attach it here or send me a private message to the download link if you put it on dropbox or the like.

 

Separate films may work. But you will need to probably add text above the design to identify what separate it is for each of what should be a separate sep, and add registration marks that print on each individual film.

[j.lyon]

Hi Mike,

 

Here is the design in several versions.  

 

*  PDF - so you can see what the finished product is supposed to look like.

 

*  EPS - This is what I get back from Sep Studio

 

*  AFDesign File - This is after I label the layers of the EPS file.  I guess it turns it into an AD file just because of that little edit.

 

See what you can make of this.  It looks, to my untrained brain, like the final product is ready to print thru accurip.  And the only thing I need to do it leave the text elements out for the Sep Studio operation and then insert the text back into the appropriate layer/color/screen/channel once I open the file in AD again.

 

Meanwhile, tonight, Im going to try what I just described and see if I can print a test screen.  And also Im going to play with my idea of stacking the films on the screen (text + Raster image) just prior to exposing.  I think one of these might be a valid work-around although not exactly a smooth process.  But it might get me thru until AD comes out with seperations in a future update.  Realistically tho, I have no indication that it's even in the works.  I haven't heard a peep from anyone on the "inside" at AD.

[Kuttyjoe]

For t-shirt work, if you're using anything other than Adobe, you're wasting time and effort.  Their subscription model is unfortunate, but there's nothing else anywhere near as perfectly suited for all aspects of our work.  Next after Adobe is of course Corel, but with Corel, you're still wasting time.  Most of the professionals who insist on using Corel, are actually using plugins with it.  Adobe needs no plugins for anything.  With Adobe CS2 or 3, you don't need Separation Studio either.  I've been doing it for many years.  I work very closely with someone who uses CorelDraw + Plugins and I can tell you all the issues he deals with at every step of the way.  It gets the job done though.

 

Those are your choices for t-shirt work.  Adobe alone, or Corel + 3rd party separation plugins, and even with plugins, you'll still have issues with the Corel route.  For example, CorelDraw can neither correctly import, nor create that multi-channel eps file attached above

 

Regarding bringing text into Sep Studio, I think you're trying to say that Sep Studio will separate the text using halftones and place it on different screens.  And I suspect that you're right.  It's all just color to Sep Studio.  You want one solid color for the text.  Here again, Adobe works perfectly.  You can easily isolate whatever parts you want to be a simple solid color.  I separate solid areas of color from halftone all the time because they need to be printed through a different mesh.  It adds more screens and more press time, but it's a choice you can make if you have with proper software. And the idea of lining up the film later is just a complete waste of time. But it's the way it goes when you're trying to use tools not made for the job.

 

Try to find an old copy of Adobe CS.  CS2 or 3 is fine.  Absolutely everything you need is in there.  From there you can use anything up to CS6 without getting into the whole subscription thing.  If you're using a Windows 10 PC you can use CS3 for sure because I'm doing that right now.  Finding that old software might be a challenge, but it is definitely the best way to go.  You can probably get the whole suite for less than the cost of Separation Studio...which you actually don't even need.  Once you learn Photoshop, you'll understand.

 

Think of Affinity Designer as a tool to use alongside your major t-shirt software.  But it is not a replacement for it.

[MikeW]

KJ is correct about the need for Sep Studio. It is a means to an end and one really needs to be careful in the design phase so one can begin with a clean file so there can be as few of spot colors as necessary. On the other hand, there is a goodly learning curve to using PS directly.

 

Where I disagree with KJ concerns CD. It works fine for this. With your file, so does AD. With a caveat. That is unless one creates discreet layers, the layers will not be named. One would also need to turn off, turn on layers to print the films. Not a big deal but the ideal would be pages to place a single sep onto. One could likely create artboards and name them. Or...

 

What I did was to:

1. Add a layer for reg marks and leave this layer visable.
2. Add a text box for each object to be separated with the separation name and clip it to its appropriate object.
3. Turn off the viewability of all but one separation object.
4. Export to PDF using the for Export setting.
5. Turn off being able to view that object and turn another one on.
6. And so on for the remaining separation objects
7. Combine those PDFs into a single PDF. Note that this isn't actually necessary as each one can be sent through Accurip indendently of each other.

I am attaching a modified AD file, a PDF produced from CorelDraw and one produced using the above steps from AD.

 

Mike

 

Please note I swapped out the ZIP file. I made the wrong size page in CD.

fly.zip

[j.lyon]

Hey guys, I think Ive cracked the case!  I have not tried them on the press yet but I FINALLY developed a reasonable work flow that results in decent looking films and does not require any fancy footwork between applications.  Further, I did it all with the software I have - AD, Sep Studio and Accurip.  Im not going to pat myself on the back just yet because there could be registration problems when I get the films  to press.  I will keep you posted once Ive done some test prints.  But wanted to let you know I haven't dropped the ball.   And...I haven't run out and bought more spendy software to throw at it.  I was going to get Corel in the beginning but found and fell in love with AD.  I ruled out AI long ago because of the price tag and/or ongoing pay to play charges.  I was also not looking fwd to figuring out how to make Corel run on my Macs.

 

Anyway, just to outline what I did to get these films....

 

It is a 5 color design with some raster elements that needed separating on Sep Studio and some vector elements (text) that looked too jagged when separated in Sep Studio.  So I...

 

1> Pulled the vector images out of the design and then sent the remaining raster images to Sep Stu to separate.  This results in a EPS with the 5 "channels"/ colors stacked up.

 

2> I am able to open those in AD and see all the layers/colors/films. But I had to take care of some resizing issues (the films came back from Sep Studio larger than the 11"x17" as designed in AD).  

 

3>So I then spread them out side by side and used Snapping to get them lined up with each other. 

 

4> I created an artboard under each panel and named it for the color of the film ...but Im not sure if I even needed to do that.  

 

5>Then I pasted the vector layer (actually I had Grouped the vector elements) containing my text back onto each color panel using Snapping to position it just like the other panels.

 

6>After that it was just a matter of unchecking the boxes of the vector elements that didn't belong on the given color/screen.

 

7>I also discovered and had to use the Invert feature found in the Adjustments menu at the bottom of the Layers panel because I had a couple of vector elements that needed to be flipped as negative.  It was some text that was to be black on the finished shirt and the design is for a black shirt. So where the black text goes, I need no ink on the film.

 

8>Then I printed them out one at a time.  In the print menu, there is a check box for registration marks.  They are tiny but I think I can work with them.

 

I think it will be easier next time because I won't be exploring uncharted waters.  And I might even be able to shorten the steps.  But if this prints well, I can live with the process for a while.  I actually think the bulk of my clients wont even need this complex style of art.  From what others tell me, the bread and butter is 1-3 simple spot colors.  But I want to have the capability to create the really nice designs as well.

[MikeW]

Yes, it does work, see my post above yours...

 

Do note that your image as uploaded is of lower than I would recommend resolution. With elements like type and gradients, I would recommend at least 150 DPI output resolution.

 

Mike

[Kuttyjoe]

KJ is correct about the need for Sep Studio. It is a means to an end and one really needs to be careful in the design phase so one can begin with a clean file so there can be as few of spot colors as necessary. On the other hand, there is a goodly learning curve to using PS directly.

 

Where I disagree with KJ concerns CD. It works fine for this.

I suppose we define "fine" in different ways.  For me, Adobe has all of this stuff implemented and working exactly how it's should work.  If you import that eps file into CorelDraw, you get the images, but no spot colors.  I wouldn't consider that to be fine but it's still a relative term.  But it is a fact that CorelDraw can neither import that file, nor create one like it and export it correctly.  Trying to get it to work sends you down a similar rabbit hole to the one with Affinity Designer.   Which still might be fine for some because in the end, it can be made to work.

[MikeW]

Yes, the spot colors do come into CD, KJ. Yes, AI simply does when it reads the file. But it only takes a second to make them appear in CD. If you do not know how, I can let you know.

 

CD also exports it correctly as well. There is no difference between it and the AI output in that regard.

 

Mike

[j.lyon]

Hi Guys,  Stil havent had a chance to try the screens.  Yes Mike, your approach sounds about the same as mine but I think I just describe it in newbie lingo.  I do have the problem of knowing just enough to ask questions here but not enough to comprehend the whole anwers you guys so dilligently gave.  Anyway, I'm going to prep another piece of artwork and then test them all out on press in the next few days.  Will let you know how it goes!  Thanks to you both very much for all your help so far.  I think if a noob like me can work with Affinity long enough for them to implement the capabilities we need, we'll eventually have an app that is superior in many ways to AI and CD.

[Kuttyjoe]

Yes, the spot colors do come into CD, KJ. Yes, AI simply does when it reads the file. But it only takes a second to make them appear in CD. If you do not know how, I can let you know.

 

CD also exports it correctly as well. There is no difference between it and the AI output in that regard.

 

Mike

Yes, I'd like to know how you make the spot colors appear. And also, what is required to get a usable eps out of it. I have a handful of guys I work with who all work with CorelDraw. They have all resorted to saving a series of individual eps files which is a mess and a waste of time. But even that mess is easy to recompile into a nice Photoshop document which is what I have to do to check their work for errors.

[MikeW]

Hi KJ,

 

Hit Print Preview. You'll have a warning for each spot color. Once you are notified about the spot colors, cancel out of Print Preview and they will be added to the document color palette (which I always have showing at the bottom of the screen).

 

 

From there, I typically print to Adobe Acrobat's print driver and opt to create the seps as I don't usually create the film. The exception is for my own jobs which are not t-shirts but rather etching onto glass or metal and require other settings.

 

Mike

[Kuttyjoe]

Something is definitely weird, because I just opened a series of our typical files in CorelDraw and exported some of them to eps, and it's making useable files for the first time ever.  It has always produced garbled files both importing and exporting.  Now it's not.  The file that you're using was imported into CorelDraw incorrectly, just a bunch of grayscale images but not pantones.  But my own files seem to be working as expected, both vector and raster and a combination of the two.  I can't explain it.  I haven't changed anything, nor am I doing anything new. Just opening files, or exporting existing separations as eps and seeing what I get.  Maybe Corel has very recently decided to fix their program.

[MikeW]

The gray bitmaps from the sep application are fine and output to film fine.

 

What you describe with proper PS generated, etc., files are what I have gotten in CD for as long as I remember.

[Kuttyjoe]

That's interesting. But we see the inconsistency even in the file attached above. A bunch of grayscale images is not correct. You've found a way to "make it work", but that is not right.

 

I'm pleasantly surprised to find that something has changed and the same files that didn't work for me a year ago, are suddenly working and I thank you for drawing my attention to this. I'm using X7. My guess is that this has been resolved in a recent update. At this point, I'm going to begin some testing to see what does or doesn't break it. I can tell you this though. Some of the files had been chopped into separate images which makes it difficult to edit. I tested 1 file with 3 bitmap squares, with 3 pantone colors. I exported this as eps, then opened in Illustrator. The result was something that was chopped up into a million pieces. I made some changes in the CorelDraw file, exported again, and that resulted in an error when trying to open in Illustrator. Yet other existing complex files on my server from a year ago opened...not just fine mind you, but certainly useable. Layers are always lost. When importing vector eps files into CorelDraw, combined vectors get broken apart. Layers are lost. And when there are a lot of nodes, CorelDraw simply has errors whether eps or not. It's far from just fine, as you described it.

[edy]

Hey guys,

 

Starting from scratch here.  I have Accurip Black Pearl and CS2.  Trying to separate colors and print out of accurip as separate film.  When I go to print from PS the printer wont give and option for separation.  This is harder than I ever imagined. lol