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kzidek

Wobbly lines (AD - 1.5.1.43)

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Hello, I was checking the new beta of AD (1.5.1.43) and I can confirm, that the pressure sensitivity finally works (even with Windows ink turned off in Wacom drivers). Thanks for the fix!

With pixel brush, there is some strange line "wobbliness" still present. In the included screenshot, there is pixel brush compared to Sketchbook / Rebelle. The line is -not so smooth- as would one expect. There seems to be also a small brush lag with a subsequent fast drawing of lines, that produces a small straight line (in the beginning of line).

It is interesting that the vector brush output "before" vectorization ("preview" in the screen during drawing) is not smooth, but it seems that is less wobbly than the pixel brush final line.

The rendering GPU is set to Geforce 755M. Wacom Intuos PS CTL-480, driver 6.3.18-5

post-42894-0-91446000-1480783672_thumb.jpg

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Hey kzidek,

 

I believe I have reproduced this to some extent. Your example looks worse than mine but at least we have something to pass over to development. I'm pretty sure we don't apply any smoothing in Pixel Persona but to have 'almost straight lines' in a shape like this probably isn't ideal... I'll see what the team say and report back. 

Thanks :)

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Hello,

Isn't it directly related to what happens in general with AD brush system ? I find many common aspects with what me and certain other user reported in a pair of threads, specially this sentence (for the very case of AD brush once it "vectorizes") :

Quote
 is not smooth, but it seems that is less wobbly than the pixel brush final line.

 

I am adding here the link as if is going to be passed somehow as a bug, there might  (probably there wouldn't) be duplication or something... :

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/29078-wobbly-linework-cintiq-24hd/

Even more. I don't know a word about how are the applications internals (and if I knew, would serve for nothing, as I can only give feedback from an artistic or technical usage perspective, not a programmer) . But if like probably in other aspects, some code is shared, or modules or something at some level, and the brush/painting system has some stuff in common among both applications, then this AP beta thread is full of other feedback that might be as well useful for the case:

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/27833-my-feedback-about-painting-features-for-now/

Edit: The straight lines in general happens in almost every painting software out there when the hardware just can't cope with the speed and ratio is being required to work in certain moment. Often is due to a low end hardware, or a too rich brush. In some cases, if the app is not optimized. Tends to be the former cases.

Las edit:  In my poor logic/reasoning, IMO increasing the wacom device precision might only imporve it a bit, but IMO, might not be the source of the problem. Specially in AD case, (indeed, brush system might be different among apps...) . As in the normal vector brush, when you paint, it does first a raster preview, before you release the pen tip -and you can leave it there an hour, as it does not vectorize until you release the tip (so, can make screenshots, etc, to make comparisons) - that one is accurate !  If would be a matter of Wacom device precision, that line wouldn't be accurate, IMO. Instead,  it happens once it vectorized, as an error in that operation, simply. Here's what I think: When it has time, it attempts to do something, some extra rotation of nodes. It does not "have time" for that in fast strokes, or, the damaging factor does not get into consideration, somehow. very clearly seen in these two specific posts (from the long AD thread) :

The last graphic example / test in this very post shows the matter of it not happening at (really) crazy speed (no inker, even among th ebest traditional ones, does it at that speed, so is no point...)  :

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/29078-wobbly-linework-cintiq-24hd/?p=145737

In this exact post I explain graphically my "theory"   ;) (I mean, much better understood with that pic there)

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/29078-wobbly-linework-cintiq-24hd/?p=145162

Very last edit : 

Quote
There seems to be also a small brush lag with a subsequent fast drawing of lines, that produces a small straight line (in the beginning of line)

 

Lag at the begining of the line, actually. Is not a new problem, just that seems in some cases produces a straight line, while in AP what produces is a wait/ lag that disallow accuracy (and yes, sometimes also straight lines) and also makes it hard to draw small details, normal speed hand writing, or fluid drawing.  Indeed, is one of the reasons why I believe AP and AD share stuff till certain point in what is the painting system.  (which could be a good thing, as then probs could be solved globally, too...)

Sorry, I edited too much this post. I wanted to keep it compact. Am not around here much as before, but get warned by mail, and this is my main worry with AP and AD. 

Cheers,


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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I have this problem and it is why I decided not to buy. Both apps seem brilliant apart from the free hand drawing tools (The issue is evident on drawing tablets and mouse, Vector and bitmap) For me that is a HUGE issue. I'm really hoping this can be sorted in future versions.

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The brush system is going to be having a rewrite, so, I'd keep an RSS or something to keep track (IE, their twitter), as this apps evolve fast, and is going to be a great deal. It is telling you someone who actually detected several issues   :)

 

One thing to notice, though. The price is good, and if you were a beta tester, you get a discount. Even without it, is still super cheap. I have purchased AD (can't with AP for now, as have accumulated a lot of personal bills, and also need to purchase Christmas gifts, sigh... :s ) But imo is a good move to buy both now: You will get updates free, anyway, and in terms of file preparation for print, both the vector and the raster tool, they are good enough ALREADY ! To find this in the market, you need to go several hundred bucks up, and, crazy as it sound, those are a bit limited in comparison with Affinity's ! 

 

So, IMO, best move is purchase, then keep an eye on the free customer updates, and when you see brush engine updates, do try that update. Is what I am gonna do  -once this expensive month ends, and I have paid all the bills and gifts, sigh...


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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AP is awesome and I want to help as much as I can.

 

I have the same issue: when using the brush tool, the curve lines have a straight line in the beginning, and all my curve lines are made of visible straight lines.

Some days ago I giftd myself the final version of AP, I'm running version 1.5.0.45 and I'm using a Wacom Intuos pen&touch small.

 

My computer specs:

Windows 10 Pro (64bit)

i7 6700HQ @2.60 GHz

16 gb of ram

Nvidia geforce gtx 965M

 

And of course, I'm running the latest wacom drivers and nvidia drivers.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to reply and address any issue we may have. 

post-47037-0-74497000-1482457033_thumb.jpg

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A fast note here:  Please, look at the thread's title, this is about Affinity designer (AD) , not A. Photo (AP).   [Yet though I am super interested, as a customer (AD) and future customer (AP) on the status on the brush system of both]

 

The issues are different. The wobbling in AD seems to be produced by the vectorization of an initial raster stroke. The AP issues are different. The initial straight line or delay, seems to be, in AP -can't remember now if also in AD-  , a matter of that performance problem in the start of any brush stroke, producing a straight line at the beginning, in many cases. Almost everybody has that performance issue at the start of a brush stroke. The multiple straight lines (users having that is much smaller) all over the curve tends to be in other softwares a lack of performance in the machine. But other users with good enough hardware have reported to have that issue in AP. That i7 is not very powerful, but still better than an i5 6600k , which is already very powerful. The graphic card is a bit too low, but still, should work, as I have an arcane gtx 275 and works without that straight lines issue. Unless the mobile version of that card (I mean, ususally that's what that M standas for) have had stripped certain important feature from the card, to make it cheaper, which actually is heavily used by the software. Have you tried to switch in preferences between warp or using your graphics card ?  IMO that's not a nice way to go, in general, but in desperate cases i try everything....

 

Is your machine laptop? Shouldn't affect at all, but it does affect the overall windows performance, and if the laptop is doing some checks and stuff by other resident programs -ie, antivirus, firewall, some ad-ware stuff, etc-  a slow disk will damage all performance in the system, and thus, AP or AD can be affected ! Even while in this matter specifically the brush should not be affected, but it will if the system is suffering in general by a slow disk, IMO. I have not these issues (I have other issues in the brush system, in the 2 apps, like almost all people, that's why it's going to be improved ) of the constant straight lines, and my disk runs at 7200rpm. What rotational speed does your disk have, 5400rpm ?  

 

Also, does this happen to you by drawing super super fast lines, or... Always, no matter what speed of your hand/line is ?

 

Cheers,


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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Hi SrPx, I wouldn't normally do this - I only posted this under an AD thread because OP mentioned the problem occurs in the pixel persona, and I assumed (ready to be corrected if wrong) the brushes in that same mode work the same way in both AD and AP. If it's a problem I'll open a new thread.

 

My computer specs could be useful for developers to recreate the issue, as it is well within the requirements and in the AD pixel persona I have the same straight lines. Pixel brushes are a very important element and I would like to see them work smoothly, as I do illustration work. But a moderator said before they could partially recreate the issue, so I'm hopeful.

 

Both AP and AD are running on an SSD and I test these issues without other tasks running, so that should be fine.

 

I find AP and AD amazing, and that's why I want them to get perfect, as many others here do. I would like to wish a happy new year to the team behind this great software!

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Posted (edited)

Hmm.. It's 2019, and although I'm a newbie to your program.. actually on Affinity Photo.. I'm seeing this problem still existing with the pixel brush. It might be due to mapping issues.. not the brush itself, nor stabilizer. It might be related to how the program interprets pen tablet mapping. Maybe that is where the problem needs to be fixed? Something is wrong with tablet "coordinate" interpretation... it needs to calculate an "intermediate" path between displayed pixels.. instead of jumping from one displayed pixel to the next - creating a "step-ladder" path in the brush line..

Edited by ForestHymn

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Are you drawing with the stabilizer on? I don't have this issue.. Without it, it might show in very zoomed out. I have a Wacom Intuos pro 4 XL, and with it on I have zero issues.


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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13 hours ago, SrPx said:

Are you drawing with the stabilizer on? I don't have this issue.. Without it, it might show in very zoomed out. I have a Wacom Intuos pro 4 XL, and with it on I have zero issues.

Even when drawing zoomed in at 100%, this problem unfortunately, still shows up.

I'm using a brand new 2019 Intuos Pro medium - also previously used the Intuos Pro 3 small. Both exhibit the same zig-zag lines. The problem with stabilizer, is that if you're a painter/artist, you want to draw quickly, with free-hand strokes (not with a line-trailing rope.) My hands don't shake at all. When drawing in Photoshop, Krita, Corel painter, etc. the lines remain completely stable. It seems the problem is related to the pen mapping coordinates in the program. The brush engine in AP is perfect... but coordinates are zig-zagging...

I've seen this problem in other programs too.. In a Japanese program called "OpenCanvas" - they have two methods of tablet mapping. One is "OS Mapping" - which causes these same zig-zags. The other method is "Tablet Coordinates" and that one works perfectly: producing stable lines that do not need a stabilization tool. Not sure what is causing the problem in AP.. 

For digital painters, fixing this is crucial.

In my case, due to working as a painter, this is a deal-breaker. AP is an amazing program though... It would really be worth fixing...

Maybe this should be posted as a feature request on the appropriate page. Will do that!

Thanks for the ideas!

Zig-Zag Lines.jpg

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I see what you mean....

In all honesty, yep, the wobbly could still be there. Now, I don't know if we speak about the same thing when mentioning digital painting. For an insist-and-build-up, glazing technique, like, in an oil painting (gosh I miss it so much...) that is how a lot of us digital painters work (specially realistic styles) , IMO is not an issue in Photo.

Now, for line art, comics inking, or any illustration based in ink lines... It can be. With the stabilizer, in Window mode, not rope, and... (well, I'm seeing better behavior with this ON, at preferences/tools)  " high Precision Tablet Input (experimental) " checked (marked, ON), I can ink decently with this, IF I set a very low value of the stabilizer. Like from 3 to 5. As higher, I agree, any stabilizer removes too much control. Truth to be said : My current focus with photo is painting, and of course, all image editing. Inking....I yet use Clip Studio Paint, as it allows me to ink well without stabilizer (that said, with a wacom (not in paper), I used to need before some low stabilizer setting ON. And... hmm...I believe even with zero stabilizer, CSP makes some sort of line stabilizing. But IMO, that, neither any stabilizer is really giving us any advantage. It just compensates a little, not fully, for the tech not being just there, yet.  I can draw lines perfectly steady in paper. IMO, the technology is yet in the middle, lowering precision.  The effect you are noticing is sth that the hardware does in "cintiq alternatives", and even in MS Surface (N-Trig replaced Wacom there, sadly)...Thing is, what is not good is if it happens due to software, as -and of cours,e because we can't afford loosing accuracy in so many fronts-  I can imagine then,  a Surface with the added software wobbliness is terrible. (as hardware and software jitter, "joining forces"...too much  ;)  )

I can see how, with stabilizer I can ink well in Photo, and digital painting offers no probs (of course, performance for large canvases could get some help, but they'll keep improving performance (after all, I think it's shared with the performance of handling big images, and they work on that a lot), till they match the crazy status in that of CSP ), at least in a realistic, build-up style (ie, like Vermeer, Rembrandt or Velázquez (or many others) would paint, saving the astronomically huge distance in skills with any individual of these two last centuries, of course !  ;) ).

Now, if you require the same line accuracy (one stroke must lay perfect in a first chance, like in inking, instead of doing a build-up like with oils/acrylics) then I get that for you might be a show stopper. Specially if can't afford to set the stabilizer on. (low values allow a lot of nice work, anyway).

As I said, I typically sketch and ink in CSP (before I used to do it in Krita, Open canvas, and some others) , even paint there, too. And Photo for me is a digital painting tool and an image editor, I don't have it as a prob. Also, maybe is affecting my opinion that the brush lines were worse in previous AP versions. (there have happened very, very noticeable improvements).

My tablet is much larger (not sure if higher resolution) , is an XL Intuos Pro 4. I know for a fact, testing, that the larger the tablet, the easier one makes line-art, btw. This (handling a small or medium tablet size) could be heavily diminishing the experience for both inking (specially) and painting. My favorite size and brand I recommend these days is the Wacom L (I even prefer it to a Cintiq, in certain aspects). 

Not denying the wobbliness, I can notice it in the lines if inking with no stabilizer on (as said, with high Precision Tablet Input (experimental) ON, seems that the lines get much better. You might want to try it, just in case. I believe you need to restart, the app, but not sure).


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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Thanks SrPx for sharing these thoughts - it does seem like there are a lot of factors affecting this.. You mentioned using the stabilizer without the "rope"? How can this be achieved? 

Recently, another user wrote this information, which could shed a lot of light on this problem -

@Frozen Death Knight wrote:

"I am not an expert regarding these things, but my guess is that it's because the Affinity Suite as a whole does not support high precision tablet input yet. Last year I got into contact with the guy behind the addon Lazy Nezumi Pro (great addon), and he said the reason his addon wasn't supporting Affinity products was because of them using "low-resolution mouse coordinates instead of high-res tablet coords" as the creator himself put it (I checked my old e-mail for a quote). I guess these two things are the same thing, so once that is added, it should get more precise for tablets.

Also, here's a topic I made not too long ago where a developer gave me the answer that high precision tablet input is going to get added properly, and that they are going to remove the current experimental feature since it doesn't really work. Hopefully we get it once 1.8 comes along:"

This sounds like great news for the future! I get what you mean by buildup painting technique. I also love painting in this style - very painterly style - like the old masters you mentioned!

But in my case, I like "creating" my own "anti-aliasing" for the edges of brush strokes. A sharper anti-aliasing than the one that comes with all painting programs. I do this by working with aliased-edged (pixelated-edged) brushes on a very large canvas, then when finished, reducing the size of the image by half. This creates a sharper anti-aliasing. Having sharper edges, helps me create the illusion of details much faster, finishing paintings faster. But this "wobbly" line effect with AP, actually makes this "anti-aliasing" creation method - not work. Since the edges are zig-zaggy, they look like pixelated edges in the end.. lol. In my case - it affects the quality of the finished piece.. even on build-up painterly style work. (Especially visible on the finished details in the painting.) I guess this might be due to style too? I tend to like really detailed work.. lots of crisp detail on top of the painting.. so wobbly lines are.. unwelcome.

But by the looks of it - it seems like this is something that is already being worked on by the development team! So that is great news

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14 hours ago, ForestHymn said:

Thanks SrPx for sharing these thoughts - it does seem like there are a lot of factors affecting this.. You mentioned using the stabilizer without the "rope"? How can this be achieved? 

In top bar once you grabbed the brush tool, setting stabilizer on, checked, of course, and then , if you notice, just to its right, there are to tiny icons: One is like an V, another like an almost closed circle. Pick the circle one (the rope is kindda less obvious in Window mode, but also, I like its behavior more). If you mouse over, it says in a tooltip (Window mode). Is not that you don't see it (I know that in PS you can totally disable seeing it) it is that with values from 1 - 10, mostly 1-5, you barely see it. But I've only used it for inking, and am more  in the line lately of trying not to use stabilizers at all (in CSP and krita) for inking (as I don't need it at all in painting in any app). Yet I need them for very perfect line curves of half the canvas length or so. 

It would be really good if they added an option to disable "seeing" the rope like PS has (and you don't see it in CSP, either, I think you can disable the graphic line too in Krita)

Edit: My advice (I'm nobody, just as a suggestion to try... ) would be, as a conclusion for the whole post: For painting, give it a try to the experimental feature on, no stabilizer, but work in larger canvases.... Maybe try to make faster strokes, it tends to eliminate any wobbliness, too.

 

14 hours ago, ForestHymn said:

Recently, another user wrote this information, which could shed a lot of light on this problem -

@Frozen Death Knight wrote:

"I am not an expert regarding these things, but my guess is that it's because the Affinity Suite as a whole does not support high precision tablet input yet. Last year I got into contact with the guy behind the addon Lazy Nezumi Pro (great addon), and he said the reason his addon wasn't supporting Affinity products was because of them using "low-resolution mouse coordinates instead of high-res tablet coords" as the creator himself put it (I checked my old e-mail for a quote). I guess these two things are the same thing, so once that is added, it should get more precise for tablets.

Also, here's a topic I made not too long ago where a developer gave me the answer that high precision tablet input is going to get added properly, and that they are going to remove the current experimental feature since it doesn't really work. Hopefully we get it once 1.8 comes along:"

Crazy as it sounds, I was not aware of that post.  Well, this clarifies many things....

Well, I definitely notice a better behavior with the experimental feature on (again, for what is inking).

It's a very long time till 1.8, I'm afraid, at least judging the time to go from 1.6 to 1.7 (not so different to other brands (people is eager, that's part of what happens))... I guess I'll keep inking with CSP (preferably) or Krita in the mean time.  :)

Oh, I'm very detailed in my work (not always a virtue ;D ), too, but I get the detail in "insisting", I work in like 4x times the final canvas (or more, except the cases where the canvas is HUGE like one am working on now, as my pc is what it is....). So, is not like is going to lack detail or that it wouldn't end up in crisp detail. But in painting, variation in styles is huge, so I am not sure about what are you after, so, probably what you exactly want to achieve is only doable so?  Curiously, in that very aspect (aliased brush) you paint like old school comic artists do digitally or scan their inks (similar, in a way) : They ink in 1 bit huge images like at 1200 dpi (some old method for B/W line art in print, I used to do that in the 90s), with aliased ugly pixels, as the huge resolution will avoid any issue (and files are lighter, etc). A lot of today's comic artists don't ink this way, though.

Aliased or not, if you want each brush stroke to lay definitively (ie, Picasso could do that with his lines and drawings, he could contour-draw an entire human figure without proportions or pose errors. The rest of humanity, we make our blocky general shapes and movement lines first.... ;D ) just in that shape, and how you wanted to set it, no need to "fix" or add to it, I can see how it can be a nightmare. Because surely, for you each brush stroke is final, and you want it to be exactly as you want it to be.... But probably partially present issue in most software apps and most tablets, just enhanced here due to the precision issue. I mean... I know how accurate is my hand (and training) in paper and canvas, so, I know the technological stuff in the middle is removing a lot of control. In bigger or smaller degree, depending on software and hardware.

Thinking about the reasons why you want it crisper... I don't know... maybe just working in even larger canvases, you would experiment the same crispness. In the end, reducing with a method like Lanczos non-separated, would give you very sharp edges, if the original canvas is huge enough. Is a major measure to make things look crispy, in art, as we all know. I'm, just suggesting not working just at 2x, but 4x, 6x....

Anyway, if you need every stroke to lay as final, yep, Houston, we may have a problem. But... I'd give a try to stabilizer on Window mode, not Rope mode, with the best tested value for you between 1-10 ( I'd just test it for the usual situations in my painting), the high Precision experimental feature on. I'd be to believe that combo + 4x the canvas size, would provide you with a workable environment for your style, in the meantime to 1.8 arrival (but personally I think that the revamp of the brush (or grid system or whatever it is) so not to have to use the experimental feature,  could come or not, seems development can vary a lot, is an organic beast).

Edit: Personally I would prefer only activating the experimental tablet precision feature (in your case, if you'd do so, maybe try more firm and faster strokes, it could very well eliminate any wobbliness, together with the experimental thing ON). As the stabilizer, until it gets (don't no when or if it'd get it) the possibility to disable seeing the actual rope, it's a bit annoying for an inker or a painter (I could tolerate it in inking as I ink way less than I paint, and 'cause for now I ink with other apps), so, I tend to not use it, if I pay attention to what I actually do lately when using Photo. Probably I have a mixed workflow, setting it ON or OFF depending on how disturbing I find the visual thing, or how bad I need for a particular line.  :D  As the behavior in tracing your sketch, making the ink lines, nope, that's  perfectly fine now, for inking. At low stabilizer values (otherwise you wouldn't be able to make small features or have fast, impulsive expressive lines) , with or without the experimental feature activated (seems is better if ON...but some people wont need it at all, and need other things (this very case was part of one recent post I made in a thread about the shortcut for size and hardness of the brush )).

BTW : If your profile banner picture is in the style that you mention, then your work is a lot more painterly than mine : You let the brush stroke more visible, more texture, and larger brush strokes. I'm more of an Ingres / Vermeer fanboy, so to speak, more blended, less of  large brush strokes visible. So I "insist and build up" a lot to get a particular look (but the brush strokes are also visible, I don't do a super smeared and blurry thing either like many "too much photoshop in it" artists do... I think that's kindda ugly. Mostly as even reality is not that smoothed and blurred out)


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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