Dodge and Burn are really weird. Don't behave as expected.

[influxx]

In Affinity Photo I just cannot get my head around the D & B tools. They do not behave as expected, as someone who has used equivalent tools in PS for decades.

I'll upload some reference images so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about.

With a dark background layer, and lighter compositing layer set to SCREEN, I'm trying to burn out parts of the image so they dont blend with the SCREEN'd pixels into the BG. As pixels darken (via burning) I would expect them to disapear from the comp. They do not. Instead they get lighter and the area I'm trying to make go away gets bigger.

When inspecting and burning the layer in isolation, the dark areas never get to actual black. Like LEGO Batman, just very very dark grey.

Just makes no sense. Such an odd way to make a program behave.

Why?

[walt.farrell]

What Brush did you choose from the Brushes panel to use in your Dodge/Burn operation? That will certainly influence how the operation works, though I can't say whether it could cause the exact problem you're seeing.

Can you reproduce the problem on a file you can share with us? That might make it easier for someone to explain what you're seeing.

[influxx]

On 4/19/2025 at 4:03 AM, walt.farrell said:

What Brush did you choose from the Brushes panel to use in your Dodge/Burn operation? That will certainly influence how the operation works, though I can't say whether it could cause the exact problem you're seeing.

Can you reproduce the problem on a file you can share with us? That might make it easier for someone to explain what you're seeing.

Hi Walt

Just a basic soft round brush as far as I recall.

I'll see what I can do regards the file that might best demonstrate the problem.

Thank you

[influxx]

Here is a document that explores the dodge and burn tools in a couple of scenarios. One on the RGB pixels and one on the greyscale mask pixels.

Hopefully you can see the odd results with the burn tool in the RGB example, and both tools in the mask example.

The document has a number of layers that are a kind of step by step of my process so you can see how I got where.

1. Solid fill and a solid noise layer.

2. Rasterized the noise layer to a mask

3. Mask set to mask the solid fill layer

4a. Used the dodge tool at 100% opacity and 100% flow on the mask layer. From left to right, tonal range is shadows, midtones, highlights

4b. Used the burn tool at 100% opacity and 100% flow on the mask layer. From left to right, tonal range is shadows, midtones, highlights

5. Solid noise layer with solid white and solid black rectangle painted in the center. Dodge tool on highlights on the left, burn tool on shadows on the right

6. Duplicate layer 1, convert the noise layer to transparent by deleting the black noise, leaving ONLY white noise with alpha

7. Applied alpha noise layer as a layer mask to solid fill layer

8. Used the burn tool at 100% opacity and 100% flow on the layer mask. Tonal range is, top = highlights, bottom = shadows

 

My conclusions/questions;

A. looking at layer 5, the burn tool on RGB NEVER gets to 100% black. No matter how much I paint over. Dodge does get to 100% white.

B. looking at layer 4, there is no practical difference to how tonal range of midtones and shadows behave with burn, and how midtones and highlights behave with dodge. They are for all intents and purposes, identical results.

This is just not good enough.

Download the file and see for yourselves. See if you can get different results and please report back.]

Doge-Burn.afphoto

[NotMyFault]

18 hours ago, influxx said:

A. looking at layer 5, the burn tool on RGB NEVER gets to 100% black. No matter how much I paint over. Dodge does get to 100% white

To tackle white, you need to use „highlights“. To achieve black, you must switch to mode „shadows“ when the color is below 50% grey. Mode highlight will no more darken further by design.

[NotMyFault]

Auch simpler Test is using a black to white gradient.

[influxx]

On 4/29/2025 at 11:08 AM, NotMyFault said:

To tackle white, you need to use „highlights“. To achieve black, you must switch to mode „shadows“ when the color is below 50% grey. Mode highlight will no more darken further by design.

Seriously dude. Did you bother to read the post? Are you capable of reading, perhaps English is not your first language.

Quote

4b. Used the burn tool at 100% opacity and 100% flow on the mask layer. From left to right, tonal range is shadows, midtones, highlights

Did you bother to download the provided file to actually see the results?

Or did you just chime in with yet more useless waste of space response?

I have been using Photoshop since 1995. I know how dodge and burn work. Thats not my question. Jesus christ.

Please dont comment on any more of my threads. Your 'information' is not welcome.

[NotMyFault]

8 hours ago, influxx said:

have been using Photoshop since 1995. I know how dodge and burn work. Thats not my question. Jesus christ.

Please dont comment on any more of my threads. Your 'information' is not welcome.

This is a public user forum. Posts are intended for public visibility and inherently invite for reply from all users.

You are free to use the „ignore user“ function if you don’t like my posts. Welcome on my ignore list.

but you cannot silence other users from your side.

As long as the forum guidelines are followed, users are free to post and reply.

your aggressive personal attack on me is not in line with forum guidelines.

The biggest issue for users switching from PS is assuming and insisting Affinity must behave identical. It does not in many cases.

[Ron P.]

I stopped using the Dodge & Burn tools 3 yrs ago. A PS content creator Unmesh Dinda, his YouTube channel Piximperfect, done a video on Dodging & Burning, in PS. The technique that had been used for years was "stupid".

Gray Layer for Dodge & Burn is Stupid

I think a non-destructive approach allows for wiggle room, mistakes, so you don't have redo a lot of work. Also provides a lot more flexibility. 

If you like working destructively, that's fine, but please don't launch personal attacks against those that try to help. Even though you have a good understanding of PS, it's obvious you don't understand Affinity apps, or you wouldn't be here asking for help. NotMyFault and several others have spent hours and hours understanding how they work, and will help others get through the weeds of the apps. They work similar to PS, not identical. The road to get the results is different.

FWIW, yes I did download your example file and have been looking at it.

[NotMyFault]

Some observations. Here Affinity might differ from PS.

i made a simplified test file using only a black to white gradient, rasterized to mask.

• Chart shows 3 masks with black to white gradient.
• upper targets highlights, then midtones and shadows
• From left to right, I made 1, 2, 3 .. 5 strokes with maximized settings (hardness, opacity etc)
• pur black never gets changed. It stays black.
• there is a maximum brightness you can reach in midtown and shadows, even with repeated strokes.

this is only intended to explain how it is working in Affinity. I don’t know if that differs from PS. If it differs, it is up to Serif moderators to decide if differences are by design (intentional) or a bug.

[Leigh]

On 5/1/2025 at 7:29 AM, NotMyFault said:

This is a public user forum. Posts are intended for public visibility and inherently invite for reply from all users.

You are free to use the „ignore user“ function if you don’t like my posts. Welcome on my ignore list.

but you cannot silence other users from your side.

As long as the forum guidelines are followed, users are free to post and reply.

your aggressive personal attack on me is not in line with forum guidelines.

The biggest issue for users switching from PS is assuming and insisting Affinity must behave identical. It does not in many cases.

@influxx Please keep things respectful and in line with the forum guidelines - as @NotMyFault points out, you can use the "Ignore User“ feature if you don’t like posts from certain users. Thanks!

[user_0815]

I've been testing your examples and have found that the d&b tool does not burn to pitch black. I could only get it to a dark grey.

From your first post I try to understand what your goal and requirements are. You have several small "snippets" that need to be adjusted to the base image in order to visually fit in the way you want it to look. The issue here seems to be a different black point, that seemingly can't be altered with the burn tool.

So the feedback I can give you is to confirm that the d&b tool doesn't work the way you was expecting. 

As my personal recommendation I would either try to adopt a different approach in your workflow which takes advantage of Affinity's tool or use Photoshop (or any other app) if you want to keep your workflow and use an app that fits best to that way of working. Not saying that either way is better or worse. Just that these are the two options that I see right now.

As for dodging and burining my go-to is using curves layers. However, in your file I have seen many individual comp layers for d&b. If you use one Curves layer for that, you will run into issues when you move one of the comp layers. The way I would approach that is to adjust the black point in the source material (flames ect) before placing them in to the main image. You can also do that after placing them by adding an adjustment layer (either curves, contrast or levels). If that are too many adjustment layers in your layer stack, then hit the "merge" button. This will apply the adjustment to the comp layer permanently (bake it in) and the adjustment layer will disappear. Once the black point matches and fits in with the base image, you can still dodge and burn as you like.