Best Practices for Using Manufacturer and Pantone Swatch Libraries?

[Annabella_K]

I recently started using wall paint manufacturers' swatch libraries. But these can contain hundreds if not thousands of colour swatches, which makes it hard to find which one is selected later, especially with these tiny squares. I tried copying my chosen colours to a document palette, but I haven't found a way to copy them with their names, so I need to copy-paste those separately. And that's cumbersome. For the experimenting phase, the separate palette is not that important. But, at least for the final piece, I want to have a document palette with the original colour names.

Am I missing something? Do you guys know better ways to use these libraries?

 

[NotMyFault]

By chance there was a similar question recently and I uploaded a tutorial how to identify which Pantone color is used based on comparing their color values with reference shapes.

If you simply get a screenshot of the Pantone color swatches (and their names ) this method will show the name of any color visually.

 

[NotMyFault]

If you have a thumbnail chart, my file will show which Pantone color is identical (black) or very similar (secondary colors show that there deviate in one or two of the 3 RGB channels)

[Annabella_K]

@NotMyFault I think you misunderstood my question, but your reply still answered some of my questions, so thank you very much. 😀 1. I managed to find the list view of the swatches (which I didn't realize existed before). Although it's a much longer scroll when I want to find what colour is selected, the selection mark is more prominent (blue overlay on the whole list item), so it's easier to find. I wish it would automatically jump to the selection just like on the layers panel.

2. I tried your way of saving Pantone colours to a document palette. I thought I was crazy because I did the same with Benjamin Moore's colours, and they got named with their RGB values. Interestingly, when the used colour is from a Pantone palette, then the name gets saved too. So I did everything right, it just doesn't apply to other palettes, sadly. But at least I know now that with Pantone colours it's easy.

What you're explaining here, is colour matching, right? I was trying to figure out a workflow to work effectively with these colour palettes from the start. I got the idea from an Adobe Illustrator class, but now I wonder if I should only try to match them at the end...

[NotMyFault]

You are probably right i didn’t fully get your question. Glad I could help somehow nevertheless.

could you explain a bit more about what additional (non-Pantone) palettes you are using? Do you import palettes from an external file, or yous build them manually by entering RGB color codes?

The default Pantone colors are treated a bit special by Affinity 

[Annabella_K]

@NotMyFault sorry, it happens, English is not my first language. 😅 I imported the Benjamin Moore Classics (wall paints) in .ase format. The colours are named to reflect their catalogue. But I also tried the native other palettes (colours, greys etc), and the name didn't get saved for those either. Although I've noticed that those are marked with a chain symbol unlike the Pantone ones, so something is clearly different.

[lacerto]

You might be able to use the same method that I have here used with the NCS palette. I have created a comma separated file of them that specifies the color name, its RGB color values, and Lab color values and placed it in the same folder where PANTONE .csvs reside (each Affinity app has its separate folder).

Natural Color System,sRGB-255,,,LAB,,
Name,R (0-255),G (0-255),B (0-255),L,A,B
NCS S 0300-N,248,246,241,0.97,0,2

Affinity apps read this file in their Swatches panel, where you can search a single color by its name.

The LAB color value basically determines whether the colors are read as spot colors. See the example PANTONE files to see a method to encode RGB and CMYK based process color files.

You can easily convert spot colors to process colors using the Swatches panel, as shown below (and as can be seen, the color names are retained when the colors are added to a document palette):

...or you can let the export routine do the conversion to process colors if you leave the "Honor spot colors" box unchecked when exporting.

[lacerto]

Btw, I created a small command line utility back in 2020 (for Windows and macOS) that creates .ase files based on text input in the format:

Petrol	#3eaa9e
Lemon	rgb 240,238,38
C=67 M=33 Y=0 K=10	cmyk 67,33,0,10

That is, it takes two fields where the first one defines the arbitrary name, and the second one the color definition in hex or RGB 8-bit notation for RGB colors, and CMYK percentage notation for CMYK colors. I just updated it for .NET 9 so it runs on modern Windows, but have not updated for modern macOS yet.

Would something like that create what you need? (You can directly import that kind of palette as a Document Palette, which shows the defined color names.)

[Ldina]

7 hours ago, lacerto said:

The LAB color value basically determines whether the colors are read as spot colors. See the example PANTONE files to see a method to encode RGB and CMYK based process color files.

Interesting and thanks for sharing this.

Question: LAB is standardized and doesn't need a profile to establish a specific color. If you add RGB and/or CMYK numbers to a custom color palette list, are those numbers assumed to be sRGB and US Web Coated SWOP v2? Without a profile, RGB and CMYK aren't fully and accurately defined.

So, adding LAB values to the color CSV file tells Affinity Apps that these are global colors? Will they come in as LAB values, or in the current document color space? (i.e., if the current document is set up as sRGB, will these be defined as sRGB colors?)

Can one define a custom list of colors as LAB (no RGB or CMYK values), and have Affinty compute the equivalent RGB or CMYK color in the current document color space?

I'm thinking of creating some predefined color palettes, using LAB values, which should be consistent regardless of the file's color mode or color space, since LAB is the universal translator. 

Thanks!

[lacerto]

9 hours ago, Ldina said:

If you add RGB and/or CMYK numbers to a custom color palette list, are those numbers assumed to be sRGB and US Web Coated SWOP v2? Without a profile, RGB and CMYK aren't fully and accurately defined.

That is a good question, and I doubt this has been defined anywhere. E.g., the PANTONE Formula Solid Coated spot colors that come with Affinity apps are explicitly defined in sRGB (rather than in Lab, as at the time when they were supplied with Adobe apps), but they deviate from the Color Bridge defined sRGB values, and if converted to CMYK in context of US Web Coated or any other common European standard coated paper profile, do not come very close to the CMYK definitions given.

E.g., here are some definitions and conversion values of PANTONE 204C:

PANTONE 204 C,231,130,169 (Affinity Solid Coated v5 in sRGB)
PANTONE 204 CP,226,127,165,0,58,1,0 (Affinity Color Bridge v5 in sRGB and undefined CMYK)
PANTONE 204 C, 67, 45, -2 (InDesign PANTONE Solid Coated, multiple versions, in Lab)
PANTONE 204 CP, 0, 59, 5, 0 (InDesign PANTONE+ Color Bridge Coated in undefined CMYK)

From the other PANTONE based CSV palettes it can be seen that in some of them colors are explicitly defined in "CMYK US". I'd imagine that these are just descriptive fields and there is no standard. PANTONE given CMYK definitions might well be kind of average values based on measurements of printed colors on a bunch of coated and uncoated papers, respectively...

Within Affinity apps the color accuracy of PANTONE colors (or anything spot given in Lab definition) is more or less theoretical, because they are typically press-oriented colors, and some colors extend the gamut in a way that requires at least Adobe RGB. Affinity apps, however, when working in CMYK color mode, force CMYK soft proof, and limit that, too, within sRGB. Additionally, as mentioned, spot color gamut might be arbitrarily limited within sRGB, as with PANTONE Solid Coated definitions that come with Affinity apps. So it could be said that support of spot colors does not add anything to color accuracy within Affinity apps.

Theoretically Lab definitions within an environment that does not limit the color gamut on display is the most accurate color model, and also a good base for converting spot colors to other color modes (sRGB and CMYK using varied paper stock). But what can be said when it can be seen that there are variations between PANTONE released color definitions, too. We have relatively new printed references, but then everything of course depends on getting into proper viewing conditions.

I use to say that I know "in my mind" how a specific color is supposed to look like. I am of course just kidding, but I just mean that color accuracy is not my obsession (but we are careful to produce correctly within reasonably professional conditions).

9 hours ago, Ldina said:

So, adding LAB values to the color CSV file tells Affinity Apps that these are global colors?

I have forgotten a lot of what I learned about Affinity color handling years ago, but I think that spot color palettes are basically application wide so the swatches cannot be global. They can be added to document palettes and then made global. The spot color palettes that I know that are defined in sRGB and Lab (like the mentioned NCS palette) are in practice not rendered in Lab but in sRGB, but I just realized that the LAB notation is incorrectly done in my NCS palette. I just tested creating a pure Lab based spot color palette and it appears to be possible, but I have not yet figured out the correct notation. The color space of the defined colors however is Lab (but all values defined are interpreted as RGB 8-bit).

UPDATE: I incorrectly stated above that the presence of Lab definitions would signal Affinity apps that a .csv palette is spot color based, but as mentioned, PANTONE spot color palettes are actually sRGB-only based within Affinity apps. Any user-defined RGB based definitions are also handled as spot color palettes, so it seems that only palettes that have CMYK definitions (or both RGB and CMYK definitions) are handled as non-spot color palettes.

[lacerto]

I just created a spot NCR color palette by importing an .ASE palette with Lab definitions, which works fine. I just have not found out whether and how this could also be done with a .CSV palette, as that would make it very easy to create LAB based custom palettes with color names. There are several .ASE tools available so I assume there also exists one that allows easy creation of such palettes.

 

All in all, working with color palettes within Affinity apps is still as confusing as ever (even if there are bugs that are fixed, e.g., at some point spot color based .ase palettes were supported only on macOS). This palette, e.g. allows retaining of assigned color values within the palette without forcing creation of a document palette, and if copied on a document palette, retains the color names. Some similar palettes lose the name and only show the color definition if added on a document palette.  Swatches on this palette are also called "Global" and seemingly allow editing of color values, but just seemingly.

EDIT: The confusion just deepens. Testing further it seems that freeing the lock all these swatches appear to be RGB or CMYK definitions depending on the last viewing mode selected when having the lock turned on, so it seems that is not possible to find out the actual color definition behind the spot color definition. 

UPDATE: I have now confirmed that .ASE based Lab swatches are truly imported as Lab definitions. There are free scripts available that allow creation of such palettes with help of Illustrator, but I have not yet found tools that allow this more generically, and still have not found out whether .csv files that Affinity apps read can be encoded this way...

 

[Ldina]

@lacerto Thanks for the expanded information, tests and explanations. I will need to play around with this myself and do some experimentation before it all sinks in. It is rather confusing. 🥴

 

[LionelD]

@lacerto, @Ldina This is interesting, thanks.

Do you know if a palette exported from AD2 includes the color profile (e.g., ProPhoto) of the host document at the time the palette is exported?

And do you have any thoughts abut the fact that LAB uses floating point numbers, because the fractional part disappears if you enter one in LAB Sliders?

Regards

 

[lacerto]

14 hours ago, LionelD said:

And do you have any thoughts abut the fact that LAB uses floating point numbers, because the fractional part disappears if you enter one in LAB Sliders?

Not really, Adobe apps seem to do this, as well. I cannot say whether this could have any practical significance, but personally I do not think so, in context of graphic design.

Technically e.g. ASE palettes save all color information in double floating point data structures disregarding the color mode, and just round CMYK and RGB values to integers, so it would certainly be possible to exchange LAB data with floating point accuracy, but this would nevertheless be rounded to integers in the user interface also within Adobe apps (at least Illustrator and InDesign).

[NotMyFault]

Lab colors are naturally using floats, and La and Lb cover a range of negative and positive numbers symmetrically around zero.

Affinity internally stores and shows the LAB color values inconsistently in arbitrary integer or percentage ranges (plus offset) causing confusion and issues with filters.

 

[lacerto]

14 hours ago, LionelD said:

Do you know if a palette exported from AD2 includes the color profile (e.g., ProPhoto) of the host document at the time the palette is exported?

Affinity palettes similarly as .ASE palettes can contain individual swatches in any color mode (RGB, CMYK and LAB) so they basically just contain numbers, and I do not know any palette format doing this fundamentally differently (see e.g. https://www.selapa.net/swatches/colors/fileformats.php). I'd recommend using LAB to have profile-independent color rendering (Affinity apps, however, force CMYK soft proof when working in CMYK color mode).

[LionelD]

@NotMyFault, @lacerto Thanks, that’s was very helpful.  And the link Lacerto provided indicates Affinity is aware of some of the issues.  Perhaps they’ll fix it.

The file format stuff is very informative too, thanks.

I took a brief look at Apple’s ColorSynch app (in the MBP Utilities folder).  My cursory experiments suggest they did a good job with it - you can even convert from one profile to another with whichever rendering intent you need.

Thanks again, regards

 

[Annabella_K]

@lacerto I didn't understand a lot of the things you wrote. But I tried putting a test palette .csv file in the Pantone folder (simple RGB definitions no LAB or CMYK), and it magically works the same. 🤩 It doesn't have to be a global colour, since I don't want to change the manufacturer's colours. I definitely won't manually type out the whole Benjamin Moore library, but maybe I'll find a use for this information, thank you! I don't have the time to go deeper these days.  I wonder... if Affinity uses CSV palettes, why can't we export colours in that format too?

[lacerto]

If you have an .ASE file with RGB definitions, you might be able to export it to a text file using something like https://convert.guru/ase-converter (I have no experience of this, so use your consideration whether to try these kinds of resources or not). If this is successful, you should be able to convert a text file easily to .CSV file (using e.g. Excel). This kind of file should be read as spot colors by Affinity apps, which would let you not only to keep color assignments of objects highlighted in the original palette, but also create custom document palettes, which retain the color names.

[lacerto]

Also, if you have Illustrator or InDesign, you could import an. ASE palette containing named process colors, and select them all and mark them in one go as spot colors, and then export to .ASE palette, and import it in an Affinity app, thus getting spot colors that retain object color assignments, and show the color name when copied to a document palette.