Publisher Pinning Problems

[roadcone]

Hello Helpful People …

I have a pinning problem that seems to happen on a few percent of items I am pinning.

Background: 300+ page book, 30+ chapters, facing pages, master pages contain margins and text frames for headers and page numbers L/R and body text. Body text frames are 3mm narrower than the margins to create an intentional gap.

Book contains some letters and those letters have dates/times. Client wants the dates/times information to appear in the margin adjacent to the start of the letter so these ‘hang’ in the left or right margin for the left or right pages.

I’ve put each of the dates in individual text frames, 15mm wide by 4 lines tall. To make things quicker, I have a ‘donor’ afpub containing left and right empty text frames; I Command+` to the donor, select and copy the one I want, go back to main document, click in the margin to ensure nothing is selected, paste then drag the frame to close to its destination. I then paste in the content, select the box and Pin. Invariably the pin locates on the line above so I drag it to the start of the letter and adjust position by typing in the known offset. Works like a dream … mostly.

A few percent of the time, either: the pin locates on the text on the extreme top-left of the body text frame, or: the pin locates on the line above but when I click and drag it shoots off to the text on the top-left of the frame. Either way, when I try to drag the pin to the letter, it refuses to move.

This does not happen consistently. It does not affect all date frames within a story nor does it affect all date frames on a given left or right page. Furthermore, I had pasted a frame in at the top-right of a page and because there was another needed just below, I Option+dragged that one to the second location. The first one pinned fine, the second did not. If I then delete the problem frame, and add a frame manually the problem persists. Almost like a margin problem area - but that can’t, can it 

If I delete the whole chapter pages and start again, the problem does not recur. The settings on the Pinning tab are the same for both the good and the bad with the exception that the offset for the bad is a large number of mm from top-left to the letter.

I’ve done over 300 of these so far (and not finished yet) so I have established this tedious routine to follow.

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Same document, but is this related? Placing, pinning and wrapping of images. Attached images:

Image 01: Document image is grouped with caption and selected. Wrapping Square 5mm R and B is working.
Image 02: Document image is not selected to show start point for Pinning Panel settings
Image 03: Document is pinned but not to the nearby text, but to the top frame. Furthermore, wrapping is now disabled despite showing active in the wrap panel.

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In all (?) cases, removing the pages for the whole story/chapter that contains the problem and starting again on the next blank page resolves the issue.

Can anyone offer any assistance please? 

Clive

 

 

[Old Bruce]

I must be missing something because I don't see any 

42 minutes ago, roadcone said:

dates/times information

in the screenshots.

[roadcone]

Old Bruce,

The screen shots show the second problem, the images issue (again, just a few) of both pinning moving to top-right frame text and, with images, the wrap seemingly becoming in active when pinning is applied. Attached now is an example of a text box pinning to the top-left. In this case, I copied an empty box from my donor document, pasted it on to the page you can see, dragged it from where it landed and roughly aligned it where I wanted it. I then pasted in the contents, styled it to be a right-hand page frame, deselected it, selected it, clicked Float and it located the pin where you can see. Furthermore, if I click and drag on the pin - well, I can't, it won't move.

Clive

[Old Bruce]

@roadcone, 

For the dates problem try using Side Notes. They are designed for this sort of work.

For your second problem with the images I have to admit that I don't understand how you pin the image to the frame as opposed to a location in the text. If you could show the Layers panel or better yet make a small document (one page would suffice) some text with the pinned picture that is misbehaving and post it here.

[roadcone]

Hello Old Bruce,

Thanks for the response.

Side Notes present problems in this context. The client is using End Notes so having two parallel number systems running will be ambiguous to the reader. Furthermore, Side Notes behaviour at frame (page) ends is problematic - when the number of lines in the note is greater than the number remaining on the page, the note 'shuffles' up so the alignment with the letter line is lost. On letters which occupy their own paragraph that may not be a problem but often, a short extract (a few words, a phrase, a sentence) is "quoted" in a paragraph of narration so that alignment is more important.

I have created a short pub from one of the troublesome chapters. Some hanging dates behave, others do not. On my copy/computer, try to move the pinning point on pages 7 (RH margin) or 8 (LH margin). 

Meanwhile, I can dispose of the problem thus:

I go to a page spread before the problem.
I add sufficient new page spreads to contain the remaining chapter.
I remove the flow link from the OK page frame and create a new one to the newly created spread pair, and create similar links into the newly created pages.📃
Once the new flow is satisfactory, I delete the now-empty page spreads.
The pinning, on the same hanging. boxes now works as expected.

[Edit] I am not convinced that the pinning is jumping to the frame itself, but to 'outside above' the text in the top line of the frame, thus appearing to be pinned to the frame.

Regards

Clive

xyz.afpub

[MikeTO]

The pinned frame on page 4 is linked to the pinned frame on page 5. This isn't something you'd want to do so I recommend breaking that link. While you could have linked these frames manually—nothing in Affinity prevents you from pinning a linked frame or linking frames after they're pinned—I assume this is the result of an accident. It probably happened when a master page was reapplied, either manually or automatically, because sometimes Affinity migrates and links frames in surprising ways.

I don't recommend pinning your date frames. As Bruce suggested, sidenotes are definitely preferable for your requirements. You stated that you didn't want to use sidenotes because you're also using endnotes and don't want to have two numbering systems. Your pinned frames aren't numbered since you're using them just for dates and sidenotes don't require that you number them. I use sidenotes extensively in my Publisher manual and I've set the marker to blank rather than numbered. (I actually set it to # so that there's a physical marker visible to me while editing, and I change it to blank only when exporting to PDF.)

Cheers

[roadcone]

36 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

The pinned frame on page 4 is linked to the pinned frame on page 5

Yes it is, and that is deliberate, to achieve what the client wants, and what Side Notes can't achieve. And for good or bad, I'm on Chapter 31 of 32 with well over 300 pinned text frames (of which, 'only' a dozen or so are problematic and the rest behaving) and I really don't want to redo that lot. Plus, when I add text or add, remove or resize images, they all behave nicely - apart from the dozen or so.

But that is not where the issue lies ... unless you are suggesting that the 4/5 link is causing problems on pages 7 & 8.

If you click on the top date frame on P7 it shows a pin to 'velum'. Try moving that pin - I can't. Ditto with the lower one on P7 and some on P8. This is the troubling issue.

----

I can't get the hang of this quoted text thing and now I've quoted I can't put what I want above it, so it is here:

Thank you for your response Mike. The following is going to sound like I am ungrateful but I'm not. Its fair to say that next time, I won't start from 'here' - but having started from 'here' and given that I am very nearly 'there' I really don't want to go back and redo a major, fiddly aspect of this document, nor do I want to have any difficult conversations with the client. I have two of those to come on Indexing where I (AP) can't achieve what they want. Side Notes can't split at a page end (unless I have not found that feature) and although text frames can split as such, they can flow, and I can easily force flow by reducing the size of the text box. OK, I can remove the link and have half the text in each box, but that is not the issue.

 

Enough,

Thanks.

Clive

 

PS - Oh, and why does my wrap not wrap when I pin (Q2. in the original post). Any ideas on that one please?

[roadcone]

I'm looking at Side Notes and have created a short document which represents the problem I would have: when a Side Note is longer than the number of lines left in the frame, the note shunts up from the bottom. In the screenshot, the note is four lines and the space left in the frame is two. I have marked in Red the particular sentence which is typical of many in the book. The client wants the date line to align with the subject text but in this case, it is two lines above (in fact it is not an exact number of lines but I assume my ignorance of the settings has caused that). In this example, the client wants the note to align with the date, split after line two and continue on the RHS of the next page/frame. I have ticked 'Allow split' but that does not appear to do what I expected. I have attached the apub file.

Can what is being asked of me be achieved with Side Notes please?

Clive

sidenote.afpub

[Old Bruce]

There are always going to be edge cases. In this case I guess I would skip using a side note and do the necessary manual work.

Personal opinion: Most likely what I would do is have a serious discussion with the client/author about best serving the reader. I would try and convince him/her that the date and location information should be included in the text of the letter or in the preceding paragraph. We would run the risk of annoying and or confusing the reader with bits of information scattered on different pages. While the person paying for the work is the client, the reader is the actual customer for both of us and we don't want to anger the reader.

[roadcone]

Hello Old Bruce,

23 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

There are always going to be edge cases. In this case I guess I would skip using a side note and do the necessary manual work.

Personal opinion: Most likely what I would do is have a serious discussion with the client/author about best serving the reader. I would try and convince him/her that the date and location information should be included in the text of the letter or in the preceding paragraph. We would run the risk of annoying and or confusing the reader with bits of information scattered on different pages. While the person paying for the work is the client, the reader is the actual customer for both of us and we don't want to anger the reader.

We are on the same page, I think. I received chapters in Word, set as two table columns (disaster in itself). That document contained split dates text and it did look odd. But the layout was not facing pages so the second half date was on the top of the page following the preceding bottom. Now they are on facing pages and opposite margins it all looks very disjointed. I did show the client a copy of a thriller I was reading which had dates/times in italic at the start of paragraphs and it worked well, but the client did not want to interrupt the reader by in-line dates - go figure!

I basically like the way side notes work. At present it would be a huge job if a page were to be added or removed. Side notes handle that in a moment. I have a smallish number of frame-end dates and am wondering whether to give them a side note per line (they are two, three or four lines). Then, would it be worth it on this one.

Dunno - I'm going to leave the problem a day or so while proof-reading takes place. There are pros/cons to each approach. At the moment, with the work-around, I have got a system that is working. All the images are set so I believe we are at the odd text change, hyphenation changes and such like. Although there are likely to be many small changes, I'd like to think that there won't be any major structural mods (and the client will now be preoccupied by the index!).

Thanks to you and MikeTO for your guidance.

Clive

 

 

[Old Bruce]

12 minutes ago, roadcone said:

... At the moment, with the work-around, I have got a system that is working. ...

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. As Dylan and others have said "Whats the sense in changing horses in mid-stream"

Your client sounds like a challenge.

[MikeTO]

7 hours ago, roadcone said:

If you click on the top date frame on P7 it shows a pin to 'velum'. Try moving that pin - I can't. Ditto with the lower one on P7 and some on P8. This is the troubling issue.

That's because it's not pinned to the same text frame as the one that's on top. You could figure it out with the Layers panel but it's easier if you:

1. Choose Layer > Master Page > Edit Detached
2. Drag the right main text frame a few inches down and to the left
3. Select the pinned date frame - you'll see it's pinned into an empty frame below the main frame

Somehow you've wound up with two text frames on this page. I suggest re-pinning the pinned frame to the right place, deleting the empty frame, and just to be safe, re-applying the master to the spread. You may have to relink the text frames after doing that.

7 hours ago, roadcone said:

Side Notes can't split at a page end (unless I have not found that feature)

Sidenotes can split between pages, and the Split Notes feature is selected by default.

7 hours ago, roadcone said:

PS - Oh, and why does my wrap not wrap when I pin (Q2. in the original post). Any ideas on that one please?

I'd have to see that pinned object to figure it out because the screenshot doesn't show everything such as the Layers panel.

Good luck

[roadcone]

8 hours ago, MikeTO said:

That's because it's not pinned to the same text frame as the one that's on top. You could figure it out with the Layers panel but it's easier if you:

1. Choose Layer > Master Page > Edit Detached
2. Drag the right main text frame a few inches down and to the left
3. Select the pinned date frame - you'll see it's pinned into an empty frame below the main frame

Somehow you've wound up with two text frames on this page. I suggest re-pinning the pinned frame to the right place, deleting the empty frame, and just to be safe, re-applying the master to the spread. You may have to relink the text frames after doing that.

Thank you Mike, that has resolved the problem and I can go find them in the master document to rectify. What is a mystery is how a full page text frame got added. My body text frames exist only on the master page and although I am adding dates and image frames as necessary, I have never intentionally added a full page frame. Thank you.

8 hours ago, MikeTO said:

Sidenotes can split between pages, and the Split Notes feature is selected by default.

Then I don't know how. I have read your manual which appears to show what I want to achieve. I've used a clean, new document with only two frames, fill text and one side note but I can't achieve it. I have attached the AP file of those two pages/frames if that helps diagnose what it is I am neglecting. On this file with this example, what client wants is for side note lines 1 & 2 to be bottom-left of first frame and side note lines 3 & 4 top-right of second frame (that is, side note line 1 to align with the superscript 1 line).

8 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I'd have to see that pinned object to figure it out

In desperation I scrapped that chapter and re-set so I can't now replicate the issue. But the cause of my first problem was an additional text box 'hidden' below the active one. If that existed on the image problem page also then the image could have been placed in that one and presumably, wrap would only affect the empty frame. 

Regards

Clive

 

sidenote.afpub

[MikeTO]

The extra frame was probably added when adding, deleting, or moving a single page. Sometimes the Migrate option needs to migrate (promote) a frame from the master layer to the document page. It's rare for a full-page frame but it's the most likely reason why it happened. And it works rather differently in 2.6 than in 2.5 so it could have happened in the older version depending on when you started this project.

Sidenote splitting - my apologies, this isn't going to work for your document if it's actually like your test document. It does work but only when there's no more space available. For example, if you had other sidenotes above the sidenote in your test document and there wasn't space to move its starting position up then Affinity would split it to the next page. But because there are no other notes and so much space above it, Affinity prefers not to split the note.

Good luck

[roadcone]

4 hours ago, MikeTO said:

The extra frame was probably added when adding, deleting, or moving a single page. Sometimes the Migrate option needs to migrate (promote) a frame from the master layer to the document page. It's rare for a full-page frame but it's the most likely reason why it happened. And it works rather differently in 2.6 than in 2.5 so it could have happened in the older version depending on when you started this project.

We'll never really know, but it is important that your solution worked as has allowed me to correct the two remaining errant pages and will be remembered in the future. Thank you.

 

5 hours ago, MikeTO said:

Sidenote splitting - my apologies, this isn't going to work for your document if it's actually like your test document. It does work but only when there's no more space available. For example, if you had other sidenotes above the sidenote in your test document and there wasn't space to move its starting position up then Affinity would split it to the next page. But because there are no other notes and so much space above it, Affinity prefers not to split the note.

Well, although it is not-so-good news, I am relieved that I am not missing the plot entirely. I did, sort-of, get it to work by placing an empty side note box on the line above and playing with space between and minimum advance. It worked absolutely fine but with one problem, the wrapped line/lines did not align with the body in the receiving frame, and I know why. Text frames will try to set the last line touching or very near the body frame end and by default, will set the first line touching the frame top boundary. So for the body frames, there can be effectively no leading between those last and first lines. In a side note leading is preserved and in the receiving (split) note frame there is a gap between the text and the top of the frame. 

Thank you for spending so much time and effort on this problem Mike.

Clive