HDR (EDR) export issues?

[Swoopix]

iPad Pro M1 (w/XDR & 2gigs storage): Affinity generates & displays the HDR (edr brightness) correctly (while editing) but the 32 bit .xjp & .png export formats (when exported from within affinity) do not appear to include the 32bit HDR info.

Likely related:
When I try to export 32 bit PNG's & EDR and some of the other formats, (depending on settings) I can achieve some very unusual output.....  (I get large 32bit output files that display in black-and-white like below when they should be more like the second image, only brighter.) And after successful export, some of the common files do not allow preview.  (I've also found a few settings which can hang the export process at 100% without being able to save or share the finished export.)

Whenever files export in color, 32bit exports are no brighter than the 8bit exports, even though they display (during editing) much brighter. (The exposure and gamma settings appear to have no impact other than on the display while editing.) The values can be set to anything and it doesn't seem to affect the exported files.  ~  Something seems to be clipping all the levels at 8bit.

Note: Raw tone curve (in assistant) is turned off & RAW output is set to RGB (32bit)

Possibly I'm missing something with regards to xdr/edr capabilities. And maybe .HEIC files are the only file types which display XDR properly (bright) in the iPad photos app? (outside of Affinity photo)

The images below are screen captures. (The exported files are big.) ~ Also worth noting the size of the strange black-and-white exports also end up getting exported smaller than expected & with some export settings I see slight vertical color banding in the black-and-whites.)

[NotMyFault]

Why do you start another thread ? This is no bug as explained there

 

[Swoopix]

Because something didn't (still doesn't) seem right. And if it is a bug I want the appropriate people @ Affinity/Canva to see it.  Plus the iPad is locking up and not finishing export or some settings. (this iPad's got two gigs so I doubt it's memory)

 

[NotMyFault]

28 minutes ago, Swoopix said:

Because something didn't (still doesn't) seem right. And if it is a bug I want the appropriate people @ Affinity/Canva to see it.  Plus the iPad is locking up and not finishing export or some settings. (this iPad's got two gigs so I doubt it's memory)

 

This is something completely different worth its own new thread after closing this.

please stay on topic even if you started the thread, to allow other users to follow the discussion (if they are interested).

mixing several unrelated topics makes it hard to follow or give support.

[Swoopix]

@NotMyFault Staying on topic was the intent, these issues may/may not be related.  (remains to be seen)  Having a background in coding and having spent much of my life beta testing & uncovering bugs for several notable companies.... Providing supporting info like this (keeping what may be related in one place) helps coders save time & diagnose/resolve issues.  ~  Frequently, what appears to be unrelated actually is!

I've always had a knack (it's debilitating actually ~ honestly wish I didn't) for uncovering/documenting re-producible bugs nobody else finds/reports.  So much so, I coined a term for it decades ago:  "Haystacking" (after finding a needle in a haystack)  Happens to every piece of software I dig into.  And after 2 months I'm now "neck-deep" into Affinity. 😃

FWIW:  Affinity is a FANTASTIC piece of software imo!  ~  Got into it (v.1x) back in 2021 but didn't have the time.

[Swoopix]

Post-Edit SURPRISES! - Unexpected color PNG black and white (was supposed to be a 32 bit PNG full color .affinity export) turns back into color & with dimensions restored AFTER being opened opened in the iPad photo editor!

These photos aren't ideal examples. I've been experimenting with low light aerials, trying to see how far I can push & modify sky lighting after dusk.

SURPRISE #1: (Image restored)
On a hunch, I opened a PNG 32bit hdr export (iPad image viewer displays it horizontally compressed & black-and-white only) in the iPad image editor...... The iPad photo editor immediately rendered the PNG file correctly! (back in full color with full horizontal size restored)

To activate the save button in the iPad photo editor user has to change something, anything....  And once you do, you can re-save the PNG image. To my surprise, the damaged PNG image appears correctly in iPad photo viewer. (correct dimensions & color was restored by iPad photo editor)

SURPRISE#2:
I uploaded the exported PNG file. (IMG-0606.png - the same image that does not display properly in the iPad photo viewer) To my surprise the uploaded image appeared correctly (allbeit washed out) here in the forum/web browser.....  So I had to create a screen capture (see IMG-0609.png) of IMG_0606.png.   (To show how the iPad photo viewer displays it before opening in the iPad photo editor.)

SURPRISE #3: 
The third attachment/photo is what you get after uploading the file corrected and saved image via iPad image editor. (IMG_0606.heic - which cannot be rendered in a web browser) The file appears bright , just like it did in the affinity photo editor after pushing the sky as far as I could. (To view this HEIC image, you'll probably need an iPad or iPhone with XDR.  ~  And highlights of this .HEIC  image can be pushed even higher.)

Note: This only seems to  happen with PNG 32 bit exports . Affinity export to 32bit .JXL files display correctly (in iPad photo viewer) without having to go through these steps. Affinity 32bit OpenEXR exports also displayed properly in iPad photo viewer, albeit more like a log file with limited color. (They look much like IMG_606.png below, BUT reopening them in the iPad image editor does recover and boost brightness etc.)

If this isn't a .PNG export bug, could somebody please explain what is going on here with regards tom32bit .PNG exports behaving so strangely?

FILE LEGEND:
IMG_0609.png = what you see in iPad photo viewer after 32bit hdr export from affinity (should be in color and the same dimensions as IMG_606.jpg)
IMG_0606.png = same file/the dull export that appears in browser when uploaded here into the forum (dimensions restored and some color, but very dull)
IMG_0609.heic = same file after opened in iPad photo editor. (appears as if the photo editor is automatically applying a correction to an affinity exported 32 bit PNG file)
The brightness pushed is up without becoming washed out. (pointless uploading the viewable screen capture of IMG_0609.heic because it looks washed out unless viewing locally on a XDR display.)

IMG_0606.heic

[Swoopix]

SOLUTION / WORKAROUND FOUND:

With a slight modification/extra step, it is now possible to get bright .HEIF (iPad viewable) exports using these directions: https://affinityspotlight.com/article/how-to-produce-high-dynamic-range-on-screen-graphics-in-affinity-photo/

Here's the process on iPad Pro which even works with linked raw files...

1. You cannot apply brightness in the develop persona. instead, you must an exposure adjustment. you can toggle EDR on and off to see the difference. (But unfortunately you cannot turn on clipping.)
2. You have to initially save the file, you cannot share it. (Sharing the large file to photos without saving it somehow breaks it/wrong horizontal shape and black-and-white.) ~ Also do NOT try to Share/Save the exported .PNG image to photos from within the files app.  (This also breaks the image.)
3. Instead do this: Fortunately files app has a new option called quick actions. (Just select the file and hold your finger on it to see that option.) Quick actions has the ability to convert the file to an .HEIF..... Once converted the smaller .heif file can be shared......

You end up with a very bright .HEIF file that dynamically brightens as it is viewed. (on bright iPad and iPhone displays)
The .HEIC file looks exactly like the what you see in affinity viewer, with EDR toggled on....

I am perplexed that when you convert the Affinity 32 bit .PNG export using the full-size option (Quick action / convert) to .JPEG it is also retaining/displaying the same brightness as the .HEIF file. (Any of the smaller options for saving JPEG files result in the expected bleached out image.)

One final note: Apparently iPad photos app does not properly display 32bit .PNG files.... Even the ones it converts (regardless of size) are either bleached out OR black and white with vertical color bands. (original copies which are almost identical in file size)

[Swoopix]

The JPEG file I uploaded below looks bleached out in the forum (as expected) but on the iPad it is displaying that file in 32 bit! This should not be... It's only a .JPG, not a .JPGXL.  (Both this .JPG and the .HEIC Look identical when rendered in the iPad photo viewer app! Both skies include colors, vibrant and bright.)

Both files were created from the 32 bit PNG file exported from affinity. (and then converted via iPad's new quick action export)  Apple must be performing some wizardry on the JPEG it creates. (but only when you select original size option for .JPEG Conversion) My guess is, maybe it's actually creating/encoding it as a JPEGXL with 32 bit data embedded?

Regardless, it appears as if the .PNG bug I initially reported may be an iPad issue. (iPad not properly displaying 32 bit PNG files)
 

IMG_0649.heic

[NotMyFault]

I don’t know what is going on on your system, but I strongly suspect the file management extension (you can’t live without) you are using to cause all those problems.

Your post says you added a HEIC file, not jpeg, nor png.

This happens so many times in your posts that you state „file of type xyz“ screenshots or discussion proofs something different.

For peace in the world, please try to deactivate this extension and test how Affinity Photo exports then.

You are talking about png, jpeg, jpegxl, HEIC in one paragraph and the screenshots says its is HEIC. it technically cannot be jpeg. 

[Swoopix]

There's no extension, iPad doesn't work that way.  Everything runs sandboxed. (Quick Actions / Convert is a new feature built into iPad file viewer.)

There are only three apps being used. Affinity photo, iPad File, & iPad photo viewer.....  File browserGO is not part of this equation.
I have created many file types while performing exhaustive testing on this. (also why I was so surprised at the JPEG conversion option)

I had included the.HEIC file so somebody else could see the brilliant imagery created from the 32 bit affinity PNG export using the work around. That's the way the 32 bit affinity export should display when downloaded and viewed in the iPad photo app..... The attached 32bit affinity PNG file here looks washed out as it should in this browser/forum.  If you try to share it into the iPad photo viewer, it does not display properly (wrong horizontal size and black and white) until you hit the built-in iPad photo edit button. (iPad photo instantly fixes the image and brings back the HDR look.)

I'm adding that file here (Affinity 32bit .PNG export) so others can try downloading it and sharing it directly into their iPad. i'm going to do the same to confirm.
(uploaded from the iPad photo which displays photo in black and white & wrong width UNTIL selecting the edit in iPad photo viewer) I suspect that once I download it again it will incorrectly display black and white and incorrect width in the iPad photo viewer. (until I select edit)

PS: I don't know what happened but I  just tried to save a post and it disappeared and had to recreate this. (instead I got a thank you for your report, I may have just inadvertently reported myself lol. ~ I just realized the new iPad update is also is processing application commands instead of placing text with keywords like select.
 

[Swoopix]

The problem is related to the ipad share function. Photo looks great in iPad photo after uploading and downloading.  But internally for whatever reason, iPad is not properly handling 32 bit .PNG files when first shared from BOTH the affinity share and/or the built-in iPad file app share. Downloading them is correcting the issue. (Quick Actions / Convert also works but is also likely creating a 32 bit .JPEG.)

I've uploaded that JPEG to see what it looks like here. (and re-download it to see what happens/if it maintains HDR after downloading after re-downloading to iPad photos app)

[NotMyFault]

4 minutes ago, Swoopix said:

There's no extension, iPad doesn't work that way

If you believe in that myth, all further discussion is worthless.

sorry, I step out of this discussion.

[Swoopix]

iPad loses the HDR after re-downloading the .JPEG. (iPad is maintaining the HDR content internally blending/adding that HDR content behind the scenes in iPad photo viewer.) 

No doubt this is wizardry image related to iPads revert to original capabilities. (Quick Actions / Convert to .JPG is parsing and saving the HDR content separately so iPad photos continues to display the .JPG file ib in iPad's built in photo viewer)

I know this seems complicated.  But it's really quite simple once you realize what's happening..... 😎

While producing 32 bit PNGas documented here by James Ritson: https://affinityspotlight.com/article/how-to-produce-high-dynamic-range-on-screen-graphics-in-affinity-photo/ 

• Exposure setting must be applied via an adjustment. (not via develop persona) Incidentally, a huge benefit of doing it like this is: You can toggle the exposure on and off to quickly create a file that will display properly/non-HDR.
• iPad has a problem natively displaying 32 bit PNG created by affinity and possibly all other third-party applications. (iPad photo viewer can & does fix this IF you hit the edit button) Unfortunately the save button is not active until you change something.  Alternately, you can use the new "Quick Actions / Convert to" option built into the iPad files app. (providing you save as original) If you save it as a JPEG original and save it to the iPad photo viewer app, apple applies internal wizardry to maintain a revertible HDR image which is lost outside the iPad.  (internal iPad performs some internal wizardry when it converts files)
• Using "Quick Actions / Convert to" .PNG (with the original setting for file size) merely recreates the problem.  It still will NOT display properly in iPad photo viewer without selecting edit there.
• To maintain HDR externally, use iPad's NEW "Quick Actions / Convert to" .PNG or .HEIF. (Using the original setting)
• I strongly suggest the .HEIF format (original) when using "Quick Actions / Convert to" from iPad files application.  (They won't display at all where they can't AND you'll instantly recognize them as a HDR image. (Also, these .HEIF images look fantastic IMO.)

[Swoopix]

1 hour ago, NotMyFault said:

If you believe in that myth, all further discussion is worthless.

sorry, I step out of this discussion.

Have you tried to recreate and confirm/disprove these anomalies on an iPad? (using the files I uploaded) The point of having this forum is to try and help others, right?  That's why I've spent so much time going down this rabbit hole.

If you're correct & trying to help, instead of being confrontational/argumentative, how about enlightening everyone as to where these extensions can be viewed/added/removed?  (Not talking about web browser extensions here.)  ~ FWIW:  Apple does NOT permit 3'rd party apps to knowingly break built-in ipadOS app functionality.

Couldn't find any other threads re. iPad users struggling with HDR issues like this.  And things don't work quite the same as they do on Mac so the videos don't exist either & there are inconsistencies.  (I'm most familiar with Windows, which I've been using since DOS 3x days. I'm no stranger to iPad either, along with it's strenghts/limitations.)  

[NotMyFault]

Doesn’t show your files app shoes the extensions, and the search box automatically detect if you enter a extension and offers to search for file of that type (having this extension)?

 

[Swoopix]

Hold your finger/styus on any .PNG file for a few seconds and see what options appear. (this iPad, ios 18.4 pro with XDR) brings up these Quick Actions, including the convert options which I believe are new.  (never noticed them before)

Sharing directly to iPad photos via iPad files creates some unexpected behavior with 32 bit. .PNG / HDR on this ipad. (which displays XDR)  I'll bet that IF you export an 32bit. PNG (that you create yourself instead of downloading) via Affinity (increasing the exposure): & Sharing directly to iPad photos OR just saving and then sharing fro iPad files app (without using Quick Action / convert between saving and sharing).....  You'll also see a black and white that appears incorrectly sized in the iPad Photos app.  (until edit is selected while viewing it there)

Ironically, iPad file viewer displays the HDR correctly (albeit a tiny image as depicted below) BUT sharing that image doesn't get it there like that unless it's first converted and shared.  Direct sharing breaks the image until the edit button is selected in iPad photo viewer.  (which corrects it)

[NotMyFault]

If you save a file in one format from Affinity apps, it is saved in that format. Period.

if you have a image in photo library, Apple does some automagically conversions, depending on how you use it. 
always open or place files from Photo, never use „open in“ or „share“ from Apple Photo to avoid such conversions.

This has nothing to do with Affinity apps, it is a general disease of Apple and Photo Library.

[NotMyFault]

5 minutes ago, Swoopix said:

Hold your finger/styus on any .PNG file for a few seconds and see what options appear.

What has this to do with Affinity Apps? It is a unrelated conversion tool.

[NotMyFault]

Please return to topic.

when using Affinity apps to open, save, place, export, or use in any form (bitmap fill, create brush, create pattern layer, …) any file, it will respect the file format and givens filename extension.

Affinity has some open bugs (png 32 bit, tiff greyscale 32 bit) and limitations leading to forced conversion (HEIC and others with hdr content or gain maps). But the total confusion of file types / extension you are stating does not exist.

specifically Affinity never „hiddenly“ converts between those filetypes. It only converts from a given external file format into its own internal file format. 
when you export to type X, it stores as that type x and not as any other format.

[NotMyFault]

If you use Apple Photo or file App and use open / share / open in, then Apple does conversions automatically. Affinity Photo has no say in what format the images get presented.

you may use the „export“ from photo library to get the original unedited file. 
Apple automatically downscales my 6k x 4K images to much smaller blurry mess.

[Swoopix]

Agreed & thank you.  iPad is causing this, INCLUDING iPad's ability (w/XDR display) to retain (for internal display only) a 32 bit HDR display of .JPEG photos. (when shared from iPad file viewer if first converted using iPad file manager's "Quick Actions") The difficult part is getting an Affinity exported 32 bit .PNG HDR image INTO iPad Photos for viewing.

If I could rename the topic of this thread I would.  (to  "Affinity iPad:  How to generate iPhone/iPad HDR content from a single SDR image.")

Affinity iPad can do it but the solution is elusive at best.  I had found it almost impossible to get 32 bit PNG images in iPad photo viewer without jumping through a few hoops.  (along with several unexpected results)  I found very little documentation on this & the James Ritson desktop/Mac video needed tweaking for Affinity iPad.  (Exposure adjustment does not work for this in the Develop persona. ~ Exposure must be performed by adding an adjustment in Photo persona, at least for linked raw photos.)

Took a lot of testing, trial/error (& experimenting) to create HDR images that display properly/in HDR on iOS/iPadOS.  And to understand why the two photos below should look the same when viewed within the iPad photo viewer......  The first photo below is what you see after moving it into an iPad photo album using any method available on iPad.  Second photo is the EXACT same photo after tapping the iPad photo edit button.  (appears bleached here due to browser limitations but appears bright in HDR immediately once the edit button is selected)

My guess is, most who try give up. (I did the first time around after spending nearly 2 months learning iPad Affinity Photo 2x.)  There are a lot of iPhones out there, iPad's too.  This is the dynamic type of aerial imagery I am interested in producing without having to do sky replacement....  Now I can.  And so can anyone else who finds this topic..... The one caveat is degraded image resolution that iPad File app "Quick Actions" convert produces. (even after choosing the original setting) ~ Hence they look great only on smaller screens. (tablets & phones etc.)

This is the one post that will help others achieve what I am doing.  Wish it was renamed & separate for others to easily follow:

(iPad photo viewer immediately changes the image's name when the edit button is selected.)

Due to browser limitations, you won't see the HDR here online. (below)
Note:  The following is just a screen capture of the image, so  the HDR is not visible, but it was there.  (You won't see it even after downloading.)

HEIC file also attached for iPad HDR users to see what the above image looks like in HDR.  (Created by Quick Actions / Convert image before sharing to iPad) Note:  Quick Actions / Convert option selected is actually .HEIF (using original setting) file but the residual file created is actually .HEIC.

IMG_0676.heic

I also added the original exported Affinity 32 bit .PNG file at the bottom for those with an iPad Pro/XDR display. (was taken at dusk/low light) Opening it here on an iPad with XDR, you should see it rendered in HDR.  But if you download it & move/share it back to the iPad Photo app, you'll first see it incorrectly rendered in black & white. (wrong size & strange horizontal color banding too) ~  Clicking edit fixes it.

[NotMyFault]

7 hours ago, Swoopix said:

Agreed & thank you.

Thank you so much for confirming. It is always challenging to keep an discussion in a friendly tone if positions are so different. I‘m very happy we got this sorted and looking forward to future professional discussions with you. Always great to have forum members who are interested into deep dives and finding root causes.

[NotMyFault]

Practical advice about HDR image exports.

• Traditional formats (EDR, HDR, tiff or PNG with linear transfer function) with 32 bit color depth and linear gamma are only usable during processing and transferring between apps or devices, viewer apps don’t support them on all platforms, 
• to share final results, the way to go is to use HEIC, jpegxl or other formats supporting log or PQ transfer curve and only 10 to 16 bit color channel depths. The support is far better, file size dramatically lower. Adobe made a good standard of gain maps which allow to store both SDR and HDR version within one file. 
• Apple use an ingenious trick: Live photos. They simply store images as short video. This allows to use the HDR video technology available on almost any modern devices, bypassing the emerging support for HDR still images which was added far later.