Linked .DNG exported to JPEG XL is creating a .HEIC file?! (iPad v.2.6.2)

[Swoopix]

Just realized that exporting JPEG XL in affinity iPad v2. can/will produce a file with the .HEIC extension on iPad Pro!  (You don't notice this using the photos app. But if you're also using the Google photos ipad app, that's the file extension of the file it displays.)

This occurs when you use the share option during export.

And it appears as if I'm able to generate HDR photos from a single/linked .DNG file. only using one of three AEB photos.  (Using a single photo selected from 3/multiple photos captured via. auto exposure bracketing.)

Upon opening the file Affinity photo, exposure, gamma sliders & the edr & clip toggles are displaying in the Photo persona. And I'm able to push the highlights and brightness up and then export via JPEG XL.... The file exported (shared) back into the iPad photo app is bright, clean  has the .HEIC file extension!  (Showing on the Google ipad photo app.)  This .HEIC file displays nicely in the iPad photo app. And I'm thinking it's 32 bit. (hdr)

FWIW, I'm using the Affinity raw engine. And the "Raw tone curve" assistant setting is set to take no action so the highlights can be pushed.

Possibly this is iPad wizardry.... Shouldn't the exported file be a .JXL file? ~ And how to tell for certain if it's actually a HDR / 32 bit export in the .HEIC output file container?

I suspect the individual .DNG files (created via auto exposure bracketing) must be encoded differently than a regular .DNG file? Individually they don't look brighter than standard images before editing. But highlights can be pushed without blowing out. And when I capture a single .DNG photo (from the same camera source but not using AEB mode).....  I don't see the HDR controls in the photo persona. (No exposure & gamma sliders or edr & clip toggle.)
 

 

Screen captured image below (with exposure set to 2.5) looks blown out here in a browses...  But not on the iPad Pro display!

[NotMyFault]

Affinity normally creates a file using the typical filename extension matching the format you have chosen for export. Please give a screenshot of your export UI when/before exporting.

HEIC is still in its infancy stage. Files generated by iPhone are supported, those from Canon or Sony Cameras using more advanced features (more than 8 bit color depth, HDR etc) are often not supported at all or treated wrongly.

Affinity imports HDR files into RGB/32 color format, and export from RGB/32 to non-hdr or HEIC is quite buggy or lossy (loss of bit depth, not compression artifacts).

Formats like DNG, HEIC, TIFF are actually container formats (roughly similar to ZIP, but specialist to images) and can contain 100 differently types of image formats, multiple images, … Affinity processes only a subset of the content and may do forced conversion loosing some of the content.

It can’t save these file in the same way like encoding, color format, compression method, transfer function like log, gamma, PQ as the source format.

all is hit or miss currently.

[Swoopix]

Upon further investigation, it appears that other apps are displaying the .JXL extension for these files. So likely this is a glitch in Google photos. (re. HEIC infancy which I was aware of) Also was aware of .DNG (and other raw file formats) being "containers."

When I get to the export screen I'm using the share option. (sharing/saving to photos, not exporting elsewhere)

Glitch or no glitch, how do I export/maintain the incredibly bright (edr) photo (displayed during editing within affinity iPad) exports? (with the same level of brightness)  FWIW: Raw tone curve (in assistant) is turned off & RAW output is set to RGB (32bit)

Bummer, was hoping there was an Affinity export option capable of creating an image that displays the same way in the iPad photo app.

[Swoopix]

Noticed it's possible to export .HEIC but not seeing that option on iPad.
https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Appendix/fileformat.html&title=Supported file formats

And I'm also wondering where to find and how to accomplish this on iPad...
https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/pages/HDR/hdr_editing.html

 

[Ldina]

1 hour ago, Swoopix said:

Noticed it's possible to export .HEIC but not seeing that option on iPad.

I don't see that option on Mac OS! As best I know, Affinity apps can open HEIC files, but don't currently export to HEIC format. To be sure, I opened an iPhone HEIC file, made a few edits, then exported. No HEIC option is available (see below). I exported to JPEG-XL and it shows a JXL extension when exported. 

[NotMyFault]

I can only assume that „FileBrowseGo“ (which I don’t know) makes some magic file format conversions on the fly.

The issue has probably nothing to do with Affinity apps who are barely able to open a subset of HEIC files

lots of reports Affinity unable to open and export 

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/search/&q=HEIC&page=2&quick=1&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy

[Swoopix]

@NotMyFault FileBrowserGo is a file management utility for iPad which connects everything to everything else! (I honestly don't think Id use an iPad without it!) Aside from that, there's no magic going on there.

I'm able to open and work with .HEIC files in Affinity.... Just can't figure out how to export them (or any other edits) in 32 bit/with HDR intact. PS: Took a brief look at the .HEIC issues.  I am successfully linking & editing .HEIC files on iPad. (Possibly the result of linking to them, instead of trying to embed .HEIC  files?)

[Swoopix]

@Ldina My bad.... Been working and researching for hours. Was looking at the table cross-eyed. There is no .HEIC export.

This is what I'm trying to locate on iPad: https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Panels/32bitPanel.html&title=32-bit Preview
(the 32-bit Preview panel)

 

[Ldina]

Affinity can't export to HEIC, AVIF or JPG with gain maps. Those formats support Gain Maps, which can allow properly created and saved images to be displayed as SDR or HDR on systems, browsers and applications that support them. So for now, forget these formats for HDR when using Affinity.

Affinity can export to JPEG-XL, PNG-32, Open EXR and Radiance HDR file formats, which support HDR. I'm not sure, but I believe most browsers and many applications can't properly display HDR content from these file formats. Currently, I guess they're mainly for exporting to compositing workflows, 3D apps like Blender, etc. You can RE-open these HDR files in Affinity and see the HDR content if you have an HDR capable monitor, the proper app settings, etc. I don't work on an iPad, so I don't know if that is the case with iPads or not. I've played around with some HDR on my Mac, and these formats do save, preserve and display HDR content. 

Check out James Ritson's tutorials on HDR on Youtube. He has his own channel, and there are videos for Affinity v1 and v2. 

[Ldina]

37 minutes ago, Swoopix said:

This is what I'm trying to locate on iPad: https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Panels/32bitPanel.html&title=32-bit Preview
(the 32-bit Preview panel)

Someone else will have to answer that for you, since I don't use my iPad with Affinity. I know it's available from the desktop versions by going to Window > 32 bit Preview, which will open the 32 bit Preview Panel. There is an EDR checkbox in that panel to enable/disable EDR. That checkbox is only available when you have a 32 bit file open. It's grayed out if you are working on 8 or 16 bit files.

[NotMyFault]

32 bit preview on iPad is automatically activated and active while you are editing RGB/32´images.

your 2nd screenshot shows it active 

you cannot activate it manually in other modes.

capabilities on iPad are limited to 

• choose icc managed or not
• exposure compensation
• gamma compensation

 

https://affinity.help/photo2ipad/en-US.lproj/pages/HDR/hdr_editing.html

 

[NotMyFault]

More about gain maps

https://helpx.adobe.com/content/dam/help/en/camera-raw/using/gain-map/jcr_content/root/content/flex/items/position/position-par/table/row-3u03dx0-column-4a63daf/download_section/download-1/Gain_Map_1_0d15.pdf

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/using/gain-map.html

[Swoopix]

Thanks everyone. Ironically I had uncovered an OCIO iPad bug just prior to coming back here. (reported on the appropriate forum)

[Swoopix]

19 hours ago, Ldina said:

Affinity can't export to HEIC, AVIF or JPG with gain maps. Those formats support Gain Maps, which can allow properly created and saved images to be displayed as SDR or HDR on systems, browsers and applications that support them. So for now, forget these formats for HDR when using Affinity.

Affinity can export to JPEG-XL, PNG-32, Open EXR and Radiance HDR file formats, which support HDR. I'm not sure, but I believe most browsers and many applications can't properly display HDR content from these file formats. Currently, I guess they're mainly for exporting to compositing workflows, 3D apps like Blender, etc. You can RE-open these HDR files in Affinity and see the HDR content if you have an HDR capable monitor, the proper app settings, etc. I don't work on an iPad, so I don't know if that is the case with iPads or not. I've played around with some HDR on my Mac, and these formats do save, preserve and display HDR content. 

Check out James Ritson's tutorials on HDR on Youtube. He has his own channel, and there are videos for Affinity v1 and v2. 

iPad Affinity generates & displays the HDR (edr brightness) correctly (while editing) but the export formats listed above (when exported from within affinity) do not include the 32 bit HDR info.

[NotMyFault]

35 minutes ago, Swoopix said:

but the export formats listed above (when exported from within affinity) do not include the 32 bit HDR info.

That is simply wrong.

i made a extremely simply test file where i pushed the lightness to 400% (levels adjustment, white level to 25%) and exported (flattened) to various HDR capable files.

all showed the HDR values correctly and passed the test of levels which output level to 25 as inverse adjustment.

 

edr test.hdr edr test.exr edr test.jxl edr test.tif edr test.afphoto

[Ldina]

13 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

all showed the HDR values correctly

Yup...same on Desktop version. All 32 bit HDR values are properly stored in these formats if created and exported properly, and they all re-open showing the original HDR values. 

[Swoopix]

When I push edr the exposure slider past zero (before exporting) with edr display on the additional brightness appears lost in the export.  (On the iPad Affinity displays clean very bright HDR with exposure pushed up to three. (And if edr clipping is turned on, it shows clipping only after three.)  ~  But that's not what you get on export, you end up with a file that displays the zeroed out value when the exported .jxl file is opened back in Affinity.

Maybe it's because iPad photos doesn't display the edr? (But the Affinity app can & does?)  I must be missing something here!

Possibly I'm missing something here. (With a "roundtrip" of the exported .jxl file back to affinity, the brightness isn't there until turning the edr brightness back up.) It seems like the export was clipped back to the luminance value of zero. (even with RAW tone curve turned off)

I did some testing with those files you provided ... Was surprised to find out the brightness of the 32 bit .JXL files you created/exported display at the same brightness as an 8bit .JPG (converted , and then exported), using the .afphoto file you also provided. (which can also be pushed brighter/above 2 without clipping..... during editing in 32 bit EDR)

As I mentioned earlier, maybe I'm missing and/or confused what can be expected from a 32 bit EDR export. ~ And also why the iPad Pro (XDR display) displays the additional EDR exposure setting (above 0) only while editing.

[Swoopix]

FWIW: Gamma setting (on the main photo persona screen) appears to make no difference on the .jxl export either.
 

[Ldina]

3 hours ago, Swoopix said:

Possibly I'm missing something here.

I'm working on a MacBook Pro, M4, Sequoia 15.3.2, with a Retina XDR Display (approximately 4 f-stops of HDR headroom). I don't work on my iPad, so perhaps there is something iPad related that is a problem, but based on @NotMyFault's results, I'd have to say it's probably something else. 

I just edited an HDR image in 32-bit HDR (32 bit Linear, ROMM RGB profile) and set the Exposure to +3 f-stops. The 32-bit Preview Panel had the EDR box checked, thus enabling EDR. I also had my MBP monitor set to Apple XDR Display (P3-1600 nits). All HDR values fit into the extended dynamic range of my monitor. On the Desktop version, you have to have a 32 bit floating point document, an XDR display enabled, and the 32 bit Panel must have the EDR box checked. All of those conditions must be met to create, edit or open HDR images and see them displayed properly.

I exported my 32 bit Linear HDR file to JPEG-XL, TIFF, PNG-32, EXR, and HDR file formats. When you export, you must be SURE that your export settings are configured properly. Below are screenshots for PNG and JPEG-XL export formats. For PNG, you must export to an HDR compatible file format, like one of the four presets shown in red.  The "regular PNG" and "PNG-8 (dithered"" do not support HDR and all your colors will be clipped to SDR (and will look terrible). For JPEG-XL, you have to specifically select 32 bit in the Advanced section. 

Below is the 32 bit Preview Panel for Desktop. When you open an HDR file (32 bit PNG, TIFF, JPEG-XL, EXR, HDR), Enable EDR must be checked, otherwise all your HDR values will be clipped to SDR range and will look awful. The HDR values are still in the files, but Affinity assumes your system and monitor are limited to SDR if that box is unchecked, so all values above 0-1 SDR will be brought into range and will be bunched together, resulting in a LOT of lost detail, a washed out look, etc. If I uncheck EDR in the 32 bit Preview Panel, that will simulate what an HDR file will look like if exported to a file format that does not support HDR, or has the wrong export options (e.g., 8/16 bit). 

Here's a screenshot showing all the export formats from AfPhoto as of v2.6.2 that support HDR. Every one of those marked supports HDR, as long as you have the correct 32 bit settings selected. I tested it and they all open and display properly in full HDR. 

I'll bow out now since I am not working on iPad with Affinity. Hopefully, something here will help. I'll leave it to iPad users to field any further questions.

[Swoopix]

There has to be a bug.... When I try to export 32 bit PNG's & EDR and some of the other formats.  Depending on export settings, I get some very unusual output.....
(I get large 32bit output files that display in black-and-white like this when they should be more like the second photo, only brighter.)

[NotMyFault]

@Swoopix
 

Seems you have a misconception.

32 bit preview does only impact the rendering inside the app. It doesn’t change the actual data, so results can’t be exported.

If you want to modify the export, use levels adjustment.

[NotMyFault]

4 hours ago, Swoopix said:

FWIW: Gamma setting (on the main photo persona screen) appears to make no difference on the .jxl export either.

 

6 hours ago, Swoopix said:

When I push edr the exposure slider past zero (before exporting) with edr display on the additional brightness appears lost in the export.

This is all by design and explained in help

 

[Swoopix]

Finally everything is starting to make sense .

What's the link for the page you highlighted? I didn't see that info anywhere in iPad help files (in app or online) after researching and testing the better part of two days.  I could have missed it though.  Regardless, some export settings result in freezing @ 100% on iPad (locking up the app) suggesting somethings off. (And nothing explains the resulting black-and-whites I get with some settings while experimenting with 32 bit HDR exporting.)

I've come to learn that HDR (photos) is most definitely in its infancy. I was surprised by this because the video/TV industry has been relying on it for years. (And I've been using this iPad w/XDR since 2021 & seen bright HDR stills images on it.)

I think most of the bright images I've seen are .HEIC.....  Hoping the .HEIC (export format) gets supported by Affinity, because for digital media, it's REALLY good imo!  (I've been a "MS Windows user" for nearly 40 years who is shifting back to Apple lol.) 😎

[NotMyFault]

The same as you used in your screenshot, from Desktop version. Just scroll down a bit.

https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/32bitPanel.html

[NotMyFault]

18 minutes ago, Swoopix said:

Regardless, some export settings result in freezing @ 100% on iPad (locking up the app) suggesting somethings off. (And nothing explains the resulting in black-and-whites I get with some specific settings.)

That is a completely different topic worth its own thread to keep everything a bit organized.

i will step out of this thread, as it starts to shitft its focus and the original question is now solved.