Color Sampler Points

[Meso]

New to Photo 2. I'm on a Mac, BTW, with a trial period about to end.

I'm pretty sure I was able to do this the other day but have forgotten how and after spending over an hour today trying to figure it out again I gave up and decided to post here.

In PhotoShop I created a simple but very effective technique for color correcting (not adjusting subjectively, but correcting to neutrality). It works exceptionally well as long as the image has a black area and white area. I would place a color sampler point on the black spot and one on the white, open a levels layer where I could simultaneously see the RGB values of each point both before and after any adjustments. Then using any two of the three color channels I would adjust each spot to equal values across the three channels. (You can't use all three channels. To explain why is another topic.) Once the white and black points are neutralized all the colors across the whole image fall into place.

As I said, I think I was able to do this the other day in Photo 2 but today I can't for the life of me figure out how to drop the color sample points. Can anyone tell me how?

Thanks.

[walt.farrell]

14 hours ago, Meso said:

but today I can't for the life of me figure out how to drop the color sample points.

You might have been using the Info panel, which is what I would probably use for this.

[Meso]

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

You might have been using the Info panel, which is what I would probably use for this.

Thanks Walt. The Info panel was probably part of what I was using. Bear in mind, I need to place at least two persistent color samplers on an image and be able to read the pixel values underneath them showing the values before I adjust anything and also what the numbers are after the adjustment. I'm attaching a screenshot of how I do this in PhotoShop.

Looking at the bird on the left you can see that I've placed two color samplers on his head, one in a black area and one on a white area. If you look at the Info panel at the top left you can see those samplers are represented by #1 and #2.

There are two RGB values shown for each sampler. For example #2 shows R: 252/252, G: 252/252, and B: 243/252. The first is the value before adjusting levels and the second is after the adjustment. Notice the Levels layer I have added to the image at the lower right. You can see I have lowered the input value for the blue channel to 246. The effect of that is shown in the Info panel in the second number for the blue channel which is now 252. I have made small adjustments using Levels to balance the RGB channels. As shown by the second column of RGB values in the Info panel both sample points now show equal values across the RGB channels indicating perfect neutrality. If the values were unequal there would be color bias. Equal = Neutral. I hae found that if you have what should be a black and white point in an image and apply this technique then all the values throughout the image fall into line and you wind up with a color corrected image.

This is what I am trying to replicate in Affinity Photo 2. I need to be able to place persistent color sampler points on images and have them remain until I hide or remove them. In PhotoShop I can see the changes I make using Levels, Curves, etc. reflected real time in the Info panel as I make the adjustments. If I can't do this or accomplish the same via some other, reasobly simple technique then Photo 2 becomes of dubious value to me. I regard color correction abilities as fundamental and vital to an image editor.

How can i do this?

[Ldina]

@Meso To the best of my knowledge, there is no "before/after" sampler in AfPhoto. The sampled point just shows whatever values are currently displayed on your monitor. Turning layers on and off that affect color or density will change the values beneath your sampled point. I was used to seeing before/after values in PS too, but haven't really missed that in AfPhoto. I'm usually most interested in the "after" values anyway, so if neutral is what you are after, it works fine.

You won't find a "one-for-one" feature set between Adobe and Affinity (or most apps). They each have their own ways of doing things. Affinity lacks some features, but it also has some that aren't available in PS. 

[Meso]

2 minutes ago, Ldina said:

@Meso To the best of my knowledge, there is no "before/after" sampler in AfPhoto. The sampled point just shows whatever values are currently displayed on your monitor. Turning layers on and off that affect color or density will change the values beneath your sampled point. I was used to seeing before/after values in PS too, but haven't really missed that in AfPhoto. I'm usually most interested in the "after" values anyway, so if neutral is what you are after, it works fine.

You won't find a "one-for-one" feature set between Adobe and Affinity (or most apps). They each have their own ways of doing things. Affinity lacks some features, but it also has some that aren't available in PS. 

Thanks for that.

I'm still missing a piece of the puzzle: is there a way to place persistent color samplers on an image?

[Meliora spero]

8 minutes ago, Meso said:

I'm still missing a piece of the puzzle: is there a way to place persistent color samplers on an image?

No, Affinity Photo does not support persistent color samplers on an image like Photoshop does.

[Ldina]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'persistent', but a sampler point will stay where it is placed as long as you don't remove it. 

[Meso]

6 hours ago, Meliora spero said:

No, Affinity Photo does not support persistent color samplers on an image like Photoshop does.

Actually it seems to support at least two as pointed out by Ldina above. Are you talking bout something else?

[Meso]

6 hours ago, Ldina said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'persistent', but a sampler point will stay where it is placed as long as you don't remove it. 

Thanks so much for that! I've had some success but I am still somewhat mystified. The interface really puzzles me in ways...

I was able to add two sampler points by clicking on the two icons shown in the Info panel. I can hide them by clicking on the arrows above the sample points in the panel. When I click a sampler point after disappearing it with the arrow it reappears. This makes sense--it's a show hide situation that allows you to sample elsewhere with the cursor when the sampler point is hidden.  I don't see any way to actually delete sampler points however. How do you do that?

The other thing is that I cannot create sampler points with the "Add New Sampler" under the hamburger menu.  Nothing seems to happen when I select Add New Sampler. How do you make this work and how many sampler points are supported?

[Brian_J]

14 minutes ago, Meso said:

I don't see any way to actually delete sampler points however. How do you do that?

The following help page explains how to remove a sampler:

https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/infoPanel.html

[Ldina]

22 minutes ago, Meso said:

I don't see any way to actually delete sampler points however. How do you do that?

In the Info Panel, click on the Sampler Point you wish to delete (to the right of those 3 icons). This highlights that sampler in blue. Then, from the "hamburger menu", choose "Remove Selected Sampler". In general, there's no real need to remove samplers, unless you just wish to reduce clutter in your Info Panel. Clicking that little Arrow Icon for the sampler hides the sampler point (but leaves it there, hidden, in case you want to come back to it again). With the Arrow active, the sampler readout will show the values beneath your cursor as you move it around your image.

If you wish to move an existing Sampler Point to a new location, Select the "Move Tool" in the main tools menu, then click and drag a sampler point to wherever you want it. Once again, it will stay there, hidden, if you then click the Arrow icon for that particular Sampler. You can always see it again by clicking on the little Bullseye icon. If you know you won't need it, highlight the sampler in Blue (left click) then remove it from the hamburger menu. 

22 minutes ago, Meso said:

The other thing is that I cannot create sampler points with the "Add New Sampler" under the hamburger menu.  Nothing seems to happen when I select Add New Sampler. How do you make this work and how many sampler points are supported?

Left Click on the "hamburger menu" again, and simply choose "Add New Sampler". Make sure your Info Panel Tab is selected, of course. I'm not sure what they limit is, but you can add a LOT of sampler points (perhaps unlimited...not sure). When working on Portraits, I often have 2 or 3 active because I like to use HSL and CMYK samplers for skin tones. Make sure your Info Panel Window has room to "show" the samplers you add. If the Info Panel window is too small, the new sampler points may be hidden, so expand the window, or you can drag it wherever you want, if that's more convenient. . 

[Meso]

57 minutes ago, Brian_J said:

The following help page explains how to remove a sampler:

https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/infoPanel.html

That page says:

To remove a sampler:

1. Click to select the sampler entry in the Info panel. The sampler will be highlighted in blue.
2. Click the Panel Preferences menu, and select Remove Selected Sampler from the menu.

That's exactly one of the methods I tried. It doesn't work for me.

[Meso]

54 minutes ago, Ldina said:

In the Info Panel, click on the Sampler Point you wish to delete (to the right of those 3 icons). This highlights that sampler in blue. Then, from the "hamburger menu", choose "Remove Selected Sampler". In general, there's no real need to remove samplers, unless you just wish to reduce clutter in your Info Panel. Clicking that little Arrow Icon for the sampler hides the sampler point (but leaves it there, hidden, in case you want to come back to it again). With the Arrow active, the sampler readout will show the values beneath your cursor as you move it around your image.

If you wish to move an existing Sampler Point to a new location, Select the "Move Tool" in the main tools menu, then click and drag a sampler point to wherever you want it. Once again, it will stay there, hidden, if you then click the Arrow icon for that particular Sampler. You can always see it again by clicking on the little Bullseye icon. If you know you won't need it, highlight the sampler in Blue (left click) then remove it from the hamburger menu. 

Left Click on the "hamburger menu" again, and simply choose "Add New Sampler". Make sure your Info Panel Tab is selected, of course. I'm not sure what they limit is, but you can add a LOT of sampler points (perhaps unlimited...not sure). When working on Portraits, I often have 2 or 3 active because I like to use HSL and CMYK samplers for skin tones. Make sure your Info Panel Window has room to "show" the samplers you add. If the Info Panel window is too small, the new sampler points may be hidden, so expand the window, or you can drag it wherever you want, if that's more convenient. . 

Then, from the "hamburger menu", choose "Remove Selected Sampler".

That does not work for me.

On the note of adding sample points, in particular, resizing the window, that was a great tip. Thanks. At first I could not make it enlarge. Finally I was able to do so and it revealed that I had created 12 sample points! LOL. I didn't see any but the first one in the image are even though I had enabled them all. It took me awhile to figure out that you had to first select Add New Sampler and after that you also had to select it in the Info panel and drag it to the image. It was never made clear to me that you had to do these three things to make the point visible in the image. When I first selected Add New Sampler I didn't see anything happen. I figured I had to click on the image to make it appear but that didn't do anything and because the Info panel was at its default size I didn't see the newly created sampler point. So nothing seemed to be happening.

While we're on the subject of sampler points, I hope sometime Affinity will decide to number each one both in the Info panel and in the image area. If you have quite a few then keeping them straight it would seem can be pretty much impossible. they really need to be numbered.

So, I'm left with an image that has a dozen sampler points on it that are hard to distinguish between and that I cannot seem to delete.

[carl123]

1 hour ago, Meso said:

That page says:

To remove a sampler:

1. Click to select the sampler entry in the Info panel. The sampler will be highlighted in blue.
2. Click the Panel Preferences menu, and select Remove Selected Sampler from the menu.

That's exactly one of the methods I tried. It doesn't work for me.

You have to click on the part of the sampler that will highlight it all in blue (or grey in the light interface)

Try clicking on the RGBA letters in the info panel (or the CMYK letters if the sampler is set to CMYK)

[Meliora spero]

8 hours ago, Meso said:

Actually it seems to support at least two as pointed out by Ldina above. Are you talking bout something else?

I was mistaken; I can add samplers beyond the two defaults, move samplers, change the color model, remove samplers, and so on.

I completely understand that you need to clarify how it works because it's far more intuitive in Photoshop with a dedicated color sampler tool that just starts working, along with real assistance in the Info panel that updates when you switch tools. In Photo, the add option is tucked away in the burger menu. However, Serif displays all options for each sampler point visibly, which creates visual clutter. Classic Photo - a mess. Engineer-style user interface from before the turn of the millennium.

But fundamentally, the samplers seem to work.

   

[walt.farrell]

15 hours ago, Meso said:

is there a way to place persistent color samplers on an image?

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "persistent", but samplers you add using the Info panel persist until you delete them. 

Help: https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/infoPanel.html

[R C-R]

6 hours ago, Meliora spero said:

However, Serif displays all options for each sampler point visibly, which creates visual clutter.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that but if you are referring to the leftmost 3 icons for selecting color model & 'live' or persistent location sampling, to me it seems quite compact, informative, & intuitive. In fact, I much prefer it to what you were showing from Photoshop, which to me seems considerably more cluttered.

[R C-R]

12 hours ago, carl123 said:

You have to click on the part of the sampler that will highlight it all in blue (or grey in the light interface)

Try clicking on the RGBA letters in the info panel (or the CMYK letters if the sampler is set to CMYK)

At least for me, clicking anywhere on the sampler other than on the 3 icons on the left will highlight it. That includes any empty space between the letters & numbers, or just to the right of the numbers.

13 hours ago, Meso said:

While we're on the subject of sampler points, I hope sometime Affinity will decide to number each one both in the Info panel and in the image area.

I think that would be a good feature request.

[Meso]

19 hours ago, carl123 said:

You have to click on the part of the sampler that will highlight it all in blue (or grey in the light interface)

Try clicking on the RGBA letters in the info panel (or the CMYK letters if the sampler is set to CMYK)

People have been saying to click on the sampler point. It seemed to me that could mean two things: either the sample point icon on the image or the sample point icon in the Info panel. I tried both, and by that I mean I clicked on the crosshairs. Naturally, neither of those things worked because that's not how it's done. Even your explanation "highlight it all" was a bit baffling. All? All of what?  Highlight it how? Then when you said try clicking on the letters it became clear what you meant. What I would have understood would have been someone saying "click to the right of the icons for the sampler point in the Info panel and the area will highlight", but nobody said anything like that. It's easy enough to add and delete sample points when you know how. It's a lot harder to find out how. A graphic like the one attached would also  have made it really easy to understand.

Thanks for your help.

[Ldina]

21 hours ago, Ldina said:

In the Info Panel, click on the Sampler Point you wish to delete (to the right of those 3 icons).

I did say that...sorry it wasn't clear enough and caused you confusion. Looks like you have it now. Happy New Year!

[Meso]

13 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "persistent", but samplers you add using the Info panel persist until you delete them. 

Help: https://affinity.help/photo2/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/infoPanel.html

By persistent I meant that they would stay there and not disappear until manually deleted as opposed to disappearing when you switch to another tool.

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, Meso said:

By persistent I meant that they would stay there and not disappear until manually deleted as opposed to disappearing when you switch to another tool.

What do you mean? The placed location samplers (the red bullseyes) don't disappear when you change tools, or even if you save, close, & then reopen the file. As has been mentioned, they are 100% persistent unless/until you delete one.

[Meliora spero]

This isn’t about whether Photo is a “Photoshop clone” - statements like that are empty claims that sidestep the real discussion. The core issue is whether a program supports the workflows and needs of professional photographers. Without the ability to see both before and after values, the software fails to meet essential standards for precision and consistency:

When correcting an image, professionals rely on before values to identify specific problems, like a blue cast in shadows or a red tint in highlights. Without this reference, adjustments become guesswork. The after value alone tells you what you’ve done, but not whether you’ve fixed the actual problem.

Neutral tones, like gray or white, are crucial in ensuring proper color balance. A neutral area should have equal RGB values. If you can’t compare before and after, there’s no way to ensure that adjustments haven’t unintentionally skewed these areas.

When editing multiple images from a shoot, before values serve as a baseline for ensuring all images are balanced consistently. For example, in fashion or product photography, where tones and colors must match across dozens of images, losing this comparison creates inconsistencies.

In print workflows, precision is non-negotiable. Comparing before and after values ensures adjustments stay within technical limits, such as maintaining proper Total Ink Coverage (TAC) or preventing color shifts that compromise print fidelity.

Overediting can ruin the natural look of an image. Without a clear comparison of before and after, it’s easy to push adjustments too far without realizing it.

This isn’t just a “nice-to-have” feature - it’s a requirement for any tool aiming to support professional workflows. If a program can’t provide this, it fundamentally limits its use for serious photographers and retouchers. That this is not included is yet another indication that Serif lacks industry knowledge, an understanding of workflows, or a professional network to draw upon.

Is it getting better for those of you who don’t use tools like Photoshop, under Canva? Canva’s "first" (whatever that means) Design Advisory Board doesn’t include a single photographer or DTP designer, so let’s hope for more DABs in the new year. At least DABs sound like something that could bring Serif out of the shadows and toward behaving like a professional company.

https://www.canva.com/newsroom/news/designer-advisory-board/

[Meso]

15 hours ago, Ldina said:

I did say that...sorry it wasn't clear enough and caused you confusion. Looks like you have it now. Happy New Year!

It can be quite challenging and difficult to both phrase a clear, intelligible question or reply. We muddle around doing our best and sometimes we actually get it done...as we did here Thanks for your help!

[Meso]

5 hours ago, Meliora spero said:

This isn’t about whether Photo is a “Photoshop clone” - statements like that are empty claims that sidestep the real discussion. The core issue is whether a program supports the workflows and needs of professional photographers. Without the ability to see both before and after values, the software fails to meet essential standards for precision and consistency:

When correcting an image, professionals rely on before values to identify specific problems, like a blue cast in shadows or a red tint in highlights. Without this reference, adjustments become guesswork. The after value alone tells you what you’ve done, but not whether you’ve fixed the actual problem.

Neutral tones, like gray or white, are crucial in ensuring proper color balance. A neutral area should have equal RGB values. If you can’t compare before and after, there’s no way to ensure that adjustments haven’t unintentionally skewed these areas.

When editing multiple images from a shoot, before values serve as a baseline for ensuring all images are balanced consistently. For example, in fashion or product photography, where tones and colors must match across dozens of images, losing this comparison creates inconsistencies.

In print workflows, precision is non-negotiable. Comparing before and after values ensures adjustments stay within technical limits, such as maintaining proper Total Ink Coverage (TAC) or preventing color shifts that compromise print fidelity.

Overediting can ruin the natural look of an image. Without a clear comparison of before and after, it’s easy to push adjustments too far without realizing it.

This isn’t just a “nice-to-have” feature - it’s a requirement for any tool aiming to support professional workflows. If a program can’t provide this, it fundamentally limits its use for serious photographers and retouchers. That this is not included is yet another indication that Serif lacks industry knowledge, an understanding of workflows, or a professional network to draw upon.

Is it getting better for those of you who don’t use tools like Photoshop, under Canva? Canva’s "first" (whatever that means) Design Advisory Board doesn’t include a single photographer or DTP designer, so let’s hope for more DABs in the new year. At least DABs sound like something that could bring Serif out of the shadows and toward behaving like a professional company.

https://www.canva.com/newsroom/news/designer-advisory-board/

I very much appreciate your informed and cogent explanation regarding color control and why the tools by which it can be easily implemented are critical to color work.

In the past I functioned in a professional capacity in which I had to hire people to color correct photographic images. I don't think I can remember a job applicant who hadn't confused color adjustment with color correction where the former involves subjectivity and the latter objectivity.

We know that pure white is represented by equal RGB values of 255, pure black, equal RGB values of 0, and all shades of gray between black and white have equal values across the three channels. As soon as one channel differs from the other two then neutrality is lost and color or color bias is introduced. This helps us understand why it may be fair to say that white, black and gray are not colors per se, but that they represent the absence of color; they are achromatic, without color. Of course it can also be said that grays contain equal values of RGB so grays are colors--it's semantics, perhaps. Either way, RGB values of 128/128/128 would be half way between 0/0/0 and 255/255/255, and would be mid-tone, neutral gray. If we were to change 128/128/128 to 128/128,/129, although the eye may not perceive the difference the color is no longer truly gray, neutral or achromatic; it is blue or biased in the direction of blue at the very least.

So, in my estimation having the ability to place color sampler points on an image and see their before-adjustment and after-adjustment values side-by-side is important. I can often make due with just being able to see the after-adjustment values but as you so ably pointed out the after-adjustment value alone tells but part of the story and leaves the technician in a partial vacuum.

On a related note I'm wondering if anyone knows why Affinity has chosen to represent levels within the Levels Adjustment tool as a percentage rather than whole numbers. I'm accustomed to PhotoShop, of course, and while each app has its own way of dealing with things it's nice when they are easy to understand and use.

In this context whole numbers are easier for me to understand and work with. For example, if I am trying to neutralize a near-white color of a puffy white cloud, from experience and the known limitations of displays and print media I probably want to keep the highest values in which I want to see some detail down around RGB of 245. If I see that a sampler point reads R 240, G 245, and B 245 I know I have to raise the red channel 5 points to 245 to achieve neutrality which would be my goal for an achromatic white cloud.

In PhotoShop I would go into my Levels adjustments and lower the numeric Input value of the red channel 5 points which would raise the red channel (in theory) 5 points to my goal of 245. Photo 2 leaves me baffled, however, because I have to deal with percentages not integers. What percent am I supposed to change the red channel in order to effect a change of 5 points? I see no way to know and I'm not looking for puzzles or mysteries but rather expedient solutions.

Another aspect of using percentages rather than whole numbers is a loss of fine control. With integers on a scale of 0 to 255 you have a 256 step scale with which you can make 256 adjustments. With percentages you have a coarser, cruder scale of only 100 steps.

On the note of interface ease-of-use, it would also be nice if Photo 2 would allow me to see the effect of Levels adjustments real time without having to release the mouse button after each move of the slider. That can add up to a lot of clicks and potentially increase the likelihood of carpal tunnel syndrome or other wrist or hand problems. It would also be easier and save clicks to be able to right-click the Info panel for a contextual menu to add or remove sampler points rather than having to click again the hamburger menu.