Endnotes

[Welsbach]

I would like to use endnotes in my texts. Is there a comprehensible and complete guide somewhere that can help me find out how to do this? When I follow the help file, I get a huge number as a reference in the text, but the number in the text of the endnotes is tiny. The huge number in the text is displayed as 10pt, but is at least 18pt in size. If I resize it to a proper size, it is 2pt, which is of course nonsense. I have not yet found a way to make this work. And the help file is also very vague on this point, as on so many others.

Does anyone have any tips on where I can look? Or is it not yet possible to use endnotes?

 

[Oufti]

32 minutes ago, Welsbach said:

Is there a comprehensible and complete guide somewhere that can help me find out how to do this?

I suggest you download the Unofficial Guide to Publisher written by @MikeTO:

For what regards your present problem, it could be useful to post here a (simplified) document exhibiting it. 

[Welsbach]

Thanks for the tip. Maybe this unofficial manual will help with other problems, I'll see. In this case it is almost the same text as in the official manual, which only helps those who already know how to do it. Maybe I'll find out by trying it out.

But that's an uncertain thing, because a lot of things actually work, even two or three times, but then not at all. (For example, changing the font.) Also, it is and remains completely unclear why the endnote marker in the text is so huge. I'll just keep poking around in the fog. Maybe I'll find out something.

 

[Oufti]

5 minutes ago, Welsbach said:

it is and remains completely unclear why the endnote marker in the text is so huge. I'll just keep poking around in the fog. Maybe I'll find out something.

Couldn't you upload here a file containing an example of text with the erroneous endnote markers?
So we could look inside if we can help you to understand where it comes from and how to correct it. 

[MikeTO]

33 minutes ago, Welsbach said:

Thanks for the tip. Maybe this unofficial manual will help with other problems, I'll see. In this case it is almost the same text as in the official manual, which only helps those who already know how to do it. Maybe I'll find out by trying it out.

But that's an uncertain thing, because a lot of things actually work, even two or three times, but then not at all. (For example, changing the font.) Also, it is and remains completely unclear why the endnote marker in the text is so huge. I'll just keep poking around in the fog. Maybe I'll find out something.

Hi, I wrote this manual and there's definitely nothing in common between it and the official online help.

The Notes feature is complicated and there is a steep learning curve. The most confusing aspect is the document-wide vs. custom settings which I've tried to explain in the manual. Once you figure it out, you'll be able to do whatever you want.

I suspect the issue you're experiencing is you've assigned a style to the note reference marker - the font size shown in the Context Toolbar is not the actual size of the number, because styles that are applied "indirectly" through the Notes feature aren't normal formatting. So check Format > In Main Text > Number Style and see what style is applied to the note marker and then check its style definition. If you can't figure this out or if that's not the issue, please share a sample of the document and we'll investigate.

Cheers

[Welsbach]

What bth texts have in common is that they don't explain how to get the desired result.

For me, the most confusing point is that when I insert an endnote, a number the size of 41pt appears on the corresponding page and that I can't do anything about it, regardless of whether I choose document-wide or the other option. It is simply impossible to insert an endnote and it is not clear what the problem could be.

By the way, it may be due to my file. If I create a new one, it works fine. But since I can't see what's wrong with the file, there's nothing I can do. As the file already contains a lot of formatting that I don't want to lose, I can't simply paste the content as plain text. (Probably the best and safest thing to do in future is to write with a goose quill or work with InDeogn, where I've never had anywhere near as much trouble).

By the way, I have a hunch that it's because I was using the Autoflow function. It inserted around 3400 pages with an overset of just under 30 pages and probably mixed things up. But even that cannot be recognised. So it's hopeless.

 

[MikeTO]

It's not hopeless and should be easy to fix. I suggested looking at the style definition. Could you share a screenshot of the Notes panel (when the cursor is positioned before or after a note reference marker) and a screenshot of the style definition? Hopefully we can figure it out from that without needing to see the actual document.

Cheers

[Welsbach]

I just created a new file to make sure it's not some hidden problem in this one. I didn't copy anything over, just used the same dimensions. The problem is the same: footnotes are sometimes possible, endnotes never. But even with footnotes, there is always the problem that the cursor in the field where the footnote has to be entered is in front of the number and then the whole text is squeezed into the tiny space in front of this number, which of course makes it illegible. This does not always happen, but it is quite impossible for me to determine when it does and does not happen. Apparently the programme is completely unpredictable.

But it could just be me. I admit that I'm still hoping that I'll find a really useful explanation of how to do this at some point. But even that is probably hopeless.

 

[MikeTO]

1 hour ago, Welsbach said:

I just created a new file to make sure it's not some hidden problem in this one. I didn't copy anything over, just used the same dimensions. The problem is the same: footnotes are sometimes possible, endnotes never. But even with footnotes, there is always the problem that the cursor in the field where the footnote has to be entered is in front of the number and then the whole text is squeezed into the tiny space in front of this number, which of course makes it illegible. This does not always happen, but it is quite impossible for me to determine when it does and does not happen. Apparently the programme is completely unpredictable.

But it could just be me. I admit that I'm still hoping that I'll find a really useful explanation of how to do this at some point. But even that is probably hopeless.

Do you have Text > Notes > Show Note Marks enabled? You need to ensure you are typing between the brackets - it's easy to type before or after the brackets which will make a mess of things.

If you're able to share a sample document here I'd be happy to review it and give you steps to fix it and avoid the problem in the future.

Cheers

[Welsbach]

Hiere ist die Datei. Ich benötige in diesem Falle sowohl Fußnoten als auch Endnoten. Fußnoten für die beiden Prosatexte am Anfang und Endnoten für die Verse, weil dort Fußnoten das Layout zerstören würden. Beides ist unmöglich.

Vielen Dank für den Versuch, das zu klären. Das ist die letzte Hoffnung (und nun auch wirklich der letzte Versuch mit dem Publisher, mit dem ich bisher kein einziges Projekt beenden konnte...)

Idris und Zenide.afpub

[Welsbach]

Something else I've just noticed: If I set a style for the number in the body of a footnote, it disappears, regardless of which style I choose. It is only displayed if "No style" is set, which means that I have no influence on its appearance. But if I change the style of the number in the text, it becomes huge unless I choose a style with a tiny setting (2 pt).

In a word, there are things around every corner that simply don't work, and I can't explain how this is possible.

 

[MikeTO]

I've spent 10 minutes looking through your document and I can't find any footnotes or endnotes. Publisher lacks a feature to find notes so the best option is to use Find and Replace and search for paragraph styles, but all of the styles are applied to body text so I couldn't find the notes. On which pages are some footnotes and endnotes located? I even added an endnote and it appeared in a frame by itself and not with any other endnotes.

Question: Every paragraph of this document is numbered manually. Why did you not use automatic paragraph numbering?

Note: On pages 22, 26, and 100, the main text frame has been modified (size or width). If this was not deliberate, you should re-apply the master page to the spread.

[Welsbach]

Oh, I apologise for that. That was a misunderstanding. I meant. You would try to create a footnote. I am attaching the file again, this time with a footnote on the first page with prose text (page 1) and with an endnote on the first page with verses (page 13/153).

The verses are numbered manually because that's how they are in the file I imported. If I were to switch to automatic numbering, I would have to delete the numbers. But that doesn't make sense either, because it's certain that no verse will be added anywhere because the author is dead for a few hundred years...

In three (or maybe a little more) places I actually extended the text frames manually because the verses were too long there, which would have made a break necessary and destroyed the layout. (I can't shorten the lines because I don't have access to the other side and so can't ask the author for authorisation... ;-))

 

Idris und Zenide.afpub

[Alfred]

2 hours ago, Welsbach said:

the author is dead for a few hundred years...

 

2 hours ago, Welsbach said:

(I can't shorten the lines because I don't have access to the other side and so can't ask the author or the translator for authorisation... ;-))

If the author has been dead for several hundred years there will be no copyright issues to consider.

[Welsbach]

That is true. But given the fact that the author is Christoph Martin Wieland, I'm sure I can't improve the text but only make it worse.

[MikeTO]

In the new document, the endnote frame on the last page has Tracking=-960% which is why the letters are all on top of each other.

To fix this, choose the Frame Text tool. Select all the text in the endnote frame and choose Edit > Defaults > Revert. You should probably also choose Edit > Defaults > Save in case you saved the bad formatting as your defaults.

The Endnoten title above the endnote will be very tiny and I don't know why, perhaps somebody else can figure this out but edit its text style (Gesang) and just click OK - you don't have to change any values. This will fix it. This makes no sense to me but there's something going on with this document that I don't understand, but it's probably due to it having started in InDesign.

This fixes this test document. If you have problems with your note reference markers being the same size you could try this trick, re-editing the text style and clicking OK.

One other minor note - the main text in this document has baseline offset set to -0 pt which means it's a non-zero value that is being rounded to 0, but even selecting all the text and setting it to 0 will not clear this rounding. Odd.

[Welsbach]

Many thanks for the effort. Unfortunately, that doesn't help. It works for the footnote frame and also for the endnote frame. But if I then delete one of these notes and want to insert a new endnote, it no longer appears in the corresponding frame. Or there is no heading, or it appears in an extremely condensed form. It is impossible to predict what will actually happen. It was also very strange that an endnote suddenly appeared in the frame at the end of the document with the number 0 (or was it an o?), which could not be found in the text. It seems to me that whether this works or not is purely a game of chance. I am still at a loss.

If it's because the file was imported from InDesign (which is not entirely true, but partly), then that would mean that the InDesign import is highly unreliable and unpredictable in its results. That would certainly be a strong reason not to use the Publisher.

 

[MikeTO]

Idris und Zenide - fixed.afpub

Don't delete the last note, even if it's a test note. Fix the document (or use the attached), add your first real endnote, and then delete the test endnote.

If you see an endnote numbered 0, it is broken and should be deleted and replaced with a new one. That happens when you type outside the brackets or do a couple of other things - the link between the reference marker and the note is broken so you have to delete it.

Good luck

[Welsbach]

The problem with this endnote 0 was that I couldn't delete it because I couldn't jump to the place where it was (or should have been) in the text. And I couldn't find it either.

I must admit, however, that I am not very happy when it is so easy to mess up the programme in such a way that the consequences are irreparable. I'm not happy to see it, but it seems to me more and more that the extra cost of InDesign is entirely justified.

One more question, which is only indirectly related to this problem, but is important to me. I would like to use asterisks as footnote characters, not numbers and also not these strange symbols that the publisher offers. But it seems to me that this is not possible. Do I see that correctly?

 

[Oufti]

4 hours ago, Welsbach said:

I would like to use asterisks as footnote characters, not numbers and also not these strange symbols that the publisher offers. But it seems to me that this is not possible. Do I see that correctly?

If you choose this option:

you will have an asterisk * as first endnote symbol, an obelisk † for the second note and a double dague ‡ for the third one.
In classical typography, these are all standard note symbols, in this sequence. 

[Oufti]

4 hours ago, Welsbach said:

The problem with this endnote 0 was that I couldn't delete it because I couldn't jump to the place where it was (or should have been) in the text. And I couldn't find it either.

You should normally be able to delete it from the Notes section. Since it's broken, it could be that it already doesn't exist anymore in the main text. 

[MikeTO]

4 hours ago, Welsbach said:

I must admit, however, that I am not very happy when it is so easy to mess up the programme in such a way that the consequences are irreparable. I'm not happy to see it, but it seems to me more and more that the extra cost of InDesign is entirely justified.

I agree, it is a bit too easy to mess up endnotes by typing outside the brackets, it just shouldn't be possible.

InDesign is a much older application with more years of refinements. There are things it does better, but there are also things that can't be done in InDesign which can be done with Affinity. Maybe someday Affinity will do everything InDesign can do and more, but until then you have to pick the best tool for the job and only you can make that decision.

Once you've learned the ins and outs of footnotes and endnotes in Affinity, I think you'll find that while there are a few issues, these features are more powerful than the same features in InDesign.

Good luck

[Welsbach]

On 11/27/2024 at 11:56 PM, Oufti said:

[…] In classical typography, these are all standard note symbols, in this sequence. 

That applies to the English-speaking world, but not to German. I don't like it when a programme takes me by the hand and tells me what's good for me like a toddler. But as an Apple user, you're used to that. It's also not the biggest problem. I can live with that if necessary (if the client can, which is not the case here).

[Welsbach]

On 11/28/2024 at 12:25 AM, MikeTO said:

Once you've learned the ins and outs of footnotes and endnotes in Affinity, I think you'll find that while there are a few issues, these features are more powerful than the same features in InDesign.

I doubt it, but these are questions that are better not discussed.

Thank you very much for your patience and the effort you have put in. The problems have not been solved, but I now have a large number of pointers to possible solutions. At the moment I can't deal with this any further because I have to finish this project. Once I have the time and energy again, I will continue with the attempt to switch. For now, I'll have to give it up again.

Thank you once again!