The upgrade policy seems like a bad value.

[Otto Manuel]

Hi,

 I know you have heard it all before, but I just wanted to add my opinion that for myself the upgrade policy seems like a very bad value. I also want to add that the reasoning behind the policy seems difficult to sympathize with.

 I have a Designer v1 and Photo v1 license. I use Designer and enjoy it. I rarely use Photo, but I think it's nice.

 I recently installed my licenses on a new laptop and was presented with a splash screen offering a free 6-month trial. Today, the splash screen offered a 25% discount for upgrading the entire Windows, Mac, and iOS suite.

 All I am interested in upgrading is Designer, but there is no discount for that, and the reason why is that some people bought their licenses from a third-party app store. I bought my licenses directly from Affinity. I don't care if someone else bought their license from a third party. It's not my concern that someone made a bad decision and has their licensing held hostage by an App store.

OK, I get it; there is no upgrade discount for Designer v2.  Still, the best value for my use case is to simply buy Designer 2 at full price. It's a good deal at full price, but somehow, I have not felt the urge.

Consider this: If and when I do buy Designer 2 at full price, the chance of me upgrading anything else is increasingly lessened because there is no sensible pathway for upgrading to the suite. If you upgrade Designer for $69.99 and then want to upgrade Photo at a later date, it is another $69.99, for a total of $138 or you could eat some losses and try to persuade yourself that spending $125 on Photo and Publisher with a total outlay of $184 was some kind of deal for the suite.

So, here I am... I don't have an iPad, I don't plan to have an iPad, I don't need a Publisher. I would like to have but have no real need for Photo 2.

I would like to have Designer 2 but the penalty pricing scheme has yet to attract me to make a purchase.

I hope someone at Affinity will receive these comments as a description of a prospective customer's perspective.

Thank you!

[bbrother]

My suggestion is, wait for the Black Friday deal (last Friday of November), it's really close.
Affinity will definitely have some interesting discounts whether for single app purchase or for the whole suite.

[fde101]

Prior to the release of the v2 apps, there was no suite-wide pricing.  The cost did go up with v2 compared to the v1 apps, which is understandable given that the cost of just about everything increased in the long period of time since the v1 apps were released and Serif needed to compensate for that at some point.

The fact that they now offer a discounted price when licensing the entire suite (the "universal license") is a nice bonus for those who do want all the apps and/or use multiple platforms, but it does not change the fact that individual licenses are available for the individual apps by themselves.  Serif did state several times before v2 was announced that the v2 apps would need to be purchased again and that there would not be upgrade pricing (but they did discount all of the standard licensing options for a period of time immediately after they were released).

 

A price of about $70 (up from the v1 price of $50 if I remember correctly) is really not a big ask for apps like this in the first place - I recently upgraded Studio One Pro to version 7, and the upgrade was about $150.  That is more than double the "normal" price of just one of the Affinity apps.

The perpetual license for the CorelDraw suite is currently on sale for $424.

The annual support plan for QuarkXPress (to keep getting upgrades for users with the $699 perpetual license) is $339.  That means the first two years with QuarkXPress, to keep up with upgrades, is $1038.  Version 1 of the Affinity apps took over a decade from the release of Designer before the v2 apps came out.  While I would not expect that amount of time before v3, I would guess at more than another year, so it is $70 for Publisher for what may be a longer period of time than what $1038 gets you with QuarkXPress.  That is roughly a 96% discount if I did my math right (and if you don't need the extra features that QuarkXPress offers).

There are a number of individual video games that sell for around $70 each. and you can't really earn money from those (unless you are making or selling them) the way that professionals can potentially earn money through their use of the Affinity apps.

Serif is offering a discount for those who do want the suite, they are not penalizing people who don't.

 

As @bbrother suggested, however, Serif does periodically put their products on sale around various holidays; not sure if Black Friday is one of them offhand, and it likely varies from year to year, but if you are not in a hurry you could try waiting for the next one.

[Otto Manuel]

Here is how I interpret the penalty.

Options:

A] If you want to pay for more apps than you may choose to use, it's $41.66 per app.

B] If you only want to pay for the single app that you will use, it is an extra $28.32.

I'm not trying to persuade you to agree, I am just pointing out how I view the circumstance.

Thank you!

 

[Pšenda]

So your calculation shows that it makes financial sense to buy multiple products at once. If you've ever shopped in a store, this is a fairly common business practice. I also often buy two yogurts and get the third one free. So I don't see what's unfair about it - let everyone buy as many yogurts as they want and need.

[PaulEC]

1 hour ago, Otto Manuel said:

Here is how I interpret the penalty.

I think it's worth repeating that this way of pricing isn't a "penalty" for people who only purchase one item, it's an incentive for others to buy more.  Obviously, if you buy two or more products, the total amount you spend is more, and that is the important factor: the business is making more money overall, even if the profit is less per item.

The way to look at it is that there is a base price with incentives/ reduced prices (such as multi-buy discounts and sale prices) to encourage people to buy more, and thus to spend more in total. Without these incentives people buying a single product wouldn't pay any less, but people who do buy multiple products would pay more! At the end of the day, many people who spend more money, on more products, expect to get some sort of incentive to do so, over those who spend less!

[Otto Manuel]

10 hours ago, Pšenda said:

So your calculation shows that it makes financial sense to buy multiple products at once. If you've ever shopped in a store, this is a fairly common business practice. I also often buy two yogurts and get the third one free. So I don't see what's unfair about it - let everyone buy as many yogurts as they want and need.

There is nothing inherently unfair about a penalty.

Nothing has to be unfair for a disadvantage to occur.

Some things just are.

Thank you.

 

[Otto Manuel]

10 hours ago, PaulEC said:

I think it's worth repeating...

I guess it's worth repeating that I am just voicing my "perspective".  🙂

I am not trying to persuade anyone to agree.

I am just articulating my perspective.

Thank you.

[Otto Manuel]

Oh, and it might be worth repeating that if/when I do buy Designer 2 upgrade at full price, there will be an even greater disincentive to spend more money on more products that form the bundle.

If/when l pay the extra $28.32 it will become even more likely that I will not spend any more.

Thank you!

 

 

 

[Pšenda]

7 hours ago, Otto Manuel said:

I am not trying to persuade anyone to agree.

I think that applies to us as well. We are just surprised that in today's world, where the rule "buy more, it will cost you less in the end, because the price per unit is advantage to you" applies clearly and quite commonly, Serif's offer surprises you.

[PaulEC]

8 hours ago, Otto Manuel said:

I am just articulating my perspective.

I respect that, but I'm still happy to get a discount when I buy the Universal Licence!
To be honest I just don't see how other people getting a discount when they buy more, is a penalty for people who don't qualify and are just paying the normal price! But that's something we will have to agree to disagree about. (I'm just off to the supermarket, I want something that's on a "two for one offer", I only want one, but I expect them to let me have it for half price anyway!)

[fde101]

32 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

I want something that's on a "two for one offer", I only want one, but I expect them to let me have it for half price anyway!)

If you only get one when they are two for the price of one, then are you not in effect converting it into a one for the price of two sale?

[Otto Manuel]

4 hours ago, PaulEC said:

...I'm just off to the supermarket, I want something that's on a "two for one offer", I only want one, but I expect them to let me have it for half price anyway!...

Funny that you mention that.

Our local City Market Kroger store routinely offers specials with a shelf label that reads something like "Buy 2 for $2.00." If you notice the finer print on the label, you can see an appendix to the offer explaining that you can also pay $1.00 for a single item. The pricing always seems to be automatically honored at the checkout kiosk and documented on the printed receipt.

I guess someone at Kroger shares my perspective. 🙂

Thank you.

 

[Otto Manuel]

5 hours ago, Pšenda said:

I think that applies to us as well. We are just surprised that in today's world, where the rule "buy more, it will cost you less in the end, because the price per unit is advantage to you" applies clearly and quite commonly, Serif's offer surprises you.

I am surprised you are taking the time to seem surprised. It's easy to understand why buying in bulk reduces the cost of servicing the transaction. The underlying concept is known as economy of scale. I imagine you also know all about the diseconomy of scale. One example of this occurs in the software market when support requirements are so intensive that an operation recognizes that some limited number of customers will saturate the support channel, and any extra customers will cause an overload that cripples the operations.  With hard goods, diseconomy of scale often occurs when additional production facilities are required to increase output. The layout cost of increasing capability will reduce profit until the expense can be incrementally amortized across the full output capability of the additional investment. It's readily apparent but rarely recognized in casual demonstrations of business understanding.

The idea is that quantity discounting does not always place a business in the sweet spot of maximum profitability. It seems like most consumers focus their attention on the principle of economy of scale; I think the study of diseconomy of scale is more interesting. Greater revenue does not always equate to greater profitability. 

But, enough about economics, I just felt like I should interact with you on the subject because you seem interested in discussing economic theory and seemed especially interested in explaining the mechanism of economies of scale.

Thank you.

 

 

I have been writing about the absence of an upgrade pricing structure for individual application licenses. 

As you must know, purchasing upgrades is a subset of quantity purchasing, made by a repeat customer. Repeat customers have historically been regarded as less expensive to acquire attention from than new customers who may be unaware of the business's existence, products, services, and reputation.

Affinity's policy is clearly stated. If you want to upgrade your existing single-app license, you will not be offered the customary upgrade discount that the software industry has presented to repeat customers for the past three or four decades. 

This policy may appear like a penalty to some prospective repeat customers.

I am just writing to explain that every time I consider an upgrade the specific product I want to refresh, I pause due to insufficient motivation.

Thank you.

[Old Bruce]

9 hours ago, PaulEC said:

(I'm just off to the supermarket, I want something that's on a "two for one offer", I only want one, but I expect them to let me have it for half price anyway!)

My experience is that even within one store the half price may or may not be honoured. Some stores will always honour the discount, some will never honour it, and some might. 

[PaulEC]

I don't want to drag this out ad infinitum, all I would say is that many businesses give discounts in order to increase sales, if they gave a discount to everyone, it would no longer be a discount or an incentive! The point of a two for one offer is that you get two items for the normal price of one item, you can look at this as being one full price item and one free, or as getting two items each at half the normal price. But, if it's two for one, three for two, or whatever, the essence of the discount offer is that you have to buy more than one of the product, you won't qualify to get the special offer if you only buy one item. It's called "marketing"; sell more to make more profits. "Two for one" isn't the same as saying that you get two items for two dollars and one item for one dollar. That isn't a "special offer"; no matter how many you buy you still pay the same price, there is no incentive to spend more money on more items.

 

 

 

 

[Pšenda]

6 hours ago, Otto Manuel said:

you will not be offered the customary upgrade discount that the software industry has presented to repeat customers for the past three or four decades. 

When V2 was launched, I was informed by Serif, as an existing customer, about a significant introductory discount, for which I of course purchased the upgrade to a universal license at a good price.

[Meliora spero]

You have a valid point, @Otto Manuel You are just in dialogue with the wrong audience. They do not understand imaginary normal prices, imaginary valuations of free bonus content and discounts, nudging strategies, and the entire theater that comes with it. 

Serif aims to extract the highest possible amount from each paying customer, and their strategy is therefore to position the claimed advantage where you pay the highest price. There is no empathy for single-product customers.

Fortunately, Serif has a history of offering discounts periodically, even on individual products - that's your best hope. There’s no point in debating with the loyalists here; they’ve spent their personal lives on a forum - why, one can only wonder - rather than a few minutes learning or reading about market mechanisms or creating with the software. However, they are more than willing to come up with rather poor analogies.

Email Serif for a more focused and noise-free dialogue and direct access to the company. 

[Otto Manuel]

17 hours ago, PaulEC said:

 ...."Two for one" isn't the same as saying that you get two items for two dollars and one item for one dollar. That isn't a "special offer"; no matter how many you buy you still pay the same price, there is no incentive to spend more money on more items...

 

 

 

 

I apologize, I should have elaborated on the details of the circumstance I was describing.

At the City Market, I spoke of the Special Offer label (usually yellow and red to attract attention) that reads something like "Buy 2 for $2.00." These labels are placed underneath the "regular" price label (usually black and white throughout the store), which might read $3.49.  If you notice the finer print on the label, you can see an appendix to the offer explaining that you can also pay $1.00 for a single item. The pricing always seems to be up to date in the SKU database, automatically honored at the checkout kiosk, and documented on the printed receipt.

Speaking for our family, we greatly enjoy purchasing items we regularly use at reduced prices and purchase quantities that seem sensible for our usage patterns.

So, all the customers benefit from the "Special Offer" offer. Obviously, the proprietors are suggesting that people select two of the items, but they also seem to realize that any extra sales of individual items made at the lowered price are not harmful.

The incentive: Customers can save more money by buying more items if they actually use the extra items they collect.

I never thought about it, but perhaps this annoys customers who do not feel as "special" when they realize the reward for purchasing more is not exclusive to those who choose to do so.

City Market's marketing department seems to believe that its customers, on average, enjoy the special offers in the manner it has made customary.

Thank you.

[Otto Manuel]

15 hours ago, Deperditus Cliens said:

...imaginary normal prices, imaginary valuations of free bonus content and discounts, nudging strategies, and the entire theater that comes with it...

 I imagine it would be possible for Affinity to grant upgrade discounts to individual application licenses even though Affinity says it can't imagine how it might be possible. 🙂

 

 

[PaulEC]

As has been mentioned by someone else, Affinity do also have discount sales from time to time, (just like supermarkets!) where they reduce the price for everything (typically 30% or occasionally 50%) for the whole store, including the individual apps.

2 hours ago, Otto Manuel said:

perhaps this annoys customers who do not feel as "special" when they realize the reward for purchasing more is not exclusive to those who choose to do so.

Rightly or wrongly, many people do feel that their "loyalty" when making larger, or more frequent, purchases, should be rewarded to a greater extent than the rewards or discounts which are offered to everyone, no matter how small, or infrequent, those purchases may be. Going back to the supermarket analogy, many supermarkets now offer "loyalty" cards (with special discounts and offers for card holders) to encourage people to become regular customers. It's just human nature that many people like to feel special, and like their loyalty to a shop, brand or whatever to be rewarded in some way. That doesn't happen if all customers receive exactly the same benefits in all circumstances.

[Meliora spero]

4 hours ago, Otto Manuel said:

 I imagine it would be possible for Affinity to grant upgrade discounts to individual application licenses even though Affinity says it can't imagine how it might be possible. 🙂

Absolutely. It's not a question of what they can do, though. It's about what they will do and whether it works. If I recall correctly, this strategy marked a shift starting with v2.

If the current pricing policy works for their bottom line, it would take a brand-damaging shitstorm for them to adjust the policy - something that doesn’t seem to be the case with your well-mannered inquiry or the others I’ve seen. Or perhaps, a classic gentleman at the helm.

Now that Canva is trying to strengthen its brand (it’s all about branding) by offering free access to students and nonprofits, you shouldn't expect individual discounts anytime soon.

[fde101]

@Otto Manuel, just in case you missed it up until now, all of Serif's products just went on sale for 50% off.  That includes the individual licenses.

 

[Otto Manuel]

Thank you.

I am going to upgrade with this offer.