"Snap to Shape Key Points" and "Snap to Object Geometry" issues

[MikeTO]

I was testing "Snap to Shape Key Points" and "Snap to Object Geometry" today and I can't get them to do anything. I see that others in this thread said they didn't work or didn't work as expected but I can't make them do anything at all.

With a blank page and snapping to everything except shape key points and object geometry disabled, I drew a shape (star, double arrow, pie, even a path) and a rectangle. Then I dragged the rectangle around and over the other shape and it never snapped.

I wondered if these controls were actually children of Snap to Object Bounding Boxes and should be disabled when that's deselected, but I selected that and only got bounding box snapping so it's not that type of issue.

Has anybody ever gotten shape key point and object geometry snapping to work?

Edited August 4, 2024 by MikeTO
Corrected

[pbasdf]

I can get "Snap to Object Geometry" to work when using the node tool, but not the move tool.

No luck with "Snap to Shape Key Points".

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

I was testing "Snap to Shape Key Points" and "Snap to Object Geometry" today and I can't get them to do anything. I see that others in this thread said they didn't work or didn't work as expected but I can't make them do anything at all.

As far I remember from this two threads about (not-)snapping, key points snap only with Node Tool + curve(s) objects but then like any common node. Key points do not snap with the Move Tool + bounding box, unless key point & bounding box handle match. So the snapping option "Snap to shape key points" appears to have no function. It would be helpful to know the details/descriptions of the existing tags in order to be able to determine which ones might still be missing:

• AF-524
• AF-525
• AFD-6827
• AFD-6833

[MikeTO]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

As far I remember from this two threads about (not-)snapping, key points snap only with Node Tool + curve(s) objects but then like any common node. Key points do not snap with the Move Tool + bounding box, unless key point & bounding box handle match. So the snapping option "Snap to shape key points" appears to have no function.

Thank you. I didn't think of trying it with the Node tool but I couldn't get that to work, even with curves or curved shapes. I also tried it in Designer on the off chance that it was an issue specific to Publisher. This is very odd but perhaps they worked at one time and got broken one day. I don't know it's a logged issue either.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

I didn't think of trying it with the Node tool but I couldn't get that to work, even with curves or curved shapes.
(…) perhaps they worked at one time and got broken one day.

Actually, key points + Node Tool only snap because then every curve or node snaps. On round shapes I don't notice an extra snapping at the key point while the entire curve snaps. – If I deselect key point snapping then the same coordinates snap as before, if I activate key point but deactivate geometry snapping then none of the nodes or curves snaps. – If I try to snap an object with key points at a curve object then it does not snap, regardless of Node or Move Tool. – (I deactivated bounding box snapping to reduce confusion)

[Hangman]

This does appear to be a bug...

As far as I can tell, the only thing that Snap to Shape Key Points does is to snap the selected Node of a Curve to the centre point of a Shape. According to the Help file it should allow objects to be aligned to key points on shapes, such as the start and end of a rounded corner which it doesn't...

7 hours ago, thomaso said:

Actually, key points + Node Tool only snap because then every curve or node snaps... If I deselect key point snapping then the same coordinates snap as before...

This is because you have Snap to Object Geometry enabled...

[thomaso]

7 minutes ago, Hangman said:

This is because you have Snap to Object Geometry enabled...

… and what also my V1 video shows from 1:02 min to 1:35 min. 😉

9 minutes ago, Hangman said:

This does appear to be a bug...

That's why I said it would help to know the meaning/description of the four (!) tags for this thread. Is one for key points or not?

The answer may be tricky if an initial tag number was changed after its creation. It seems that the first tag AFD-6825 is currently not attached to this or another thread any more. I can't tell whether it is fixed meanwhile or if it "just" got a new number. Nevertheless, initially this one was not for key points but apparently for an issue with bounding boxes:

On 9/7/2023 at 6:23 PM, Dan C said:

1. Snapping (including guides, groups and midpoints) is using the Regular Bounds to snap to, not the visible Base Box. I'm unsure if this is technically 'by design', however I personally believe the app should always snap to the visible bounding box being displayed, which by default is the Base Box. (AFD-6825)

[Dan C]

@MikeTO, @pbasdf @thomaso & @Hangman

Please note I have split the recent replies to this thread as a separate thread here, as I believe this requires further investigations, separate from that initial report.

You may want to 'Follow' this new thread to be notified of replies here.

In regards to the issues being raised, I will do some further tests/investigations and reply here ASAP with my findings

[Hangman]

9 minutes ago, thomaso said:

… and what also my V1 video shows from 1:02 min to 1:35 min. 😉

My point was that up until 1:02 you have both Snap to Shape Key Points and Snap to Object Geometry enabled so you won't see any difference in behaviour... Uncheck every snapping option except Snap to Shape Key Points and you should see what I see in my screen recording, i.e. the selected node for a Curve will only snap to the Centre Point of a Shape...

13 minutes ago, thomaso said:

That's why I said it would help to know the meaning/description of the four (!) tags for this thread. Is one for key points or not?

I'm assuming as per the Help file... Snap to Object Geometry behaves as described in the Help file, Snap to Shape Key Points doesn't...

[thomaso]

On 8/5/2024 at 1:35 PM, Hangman said:

the selected node for a Curve will only snap to the Centre Point of a Shape...

In my previous video the "Centre Points of a Shape" didn't interest me so I did not check these coordinates. In particular for generic shapes (= objects with key points) an object's centre is tricky anyway since it is often at the same coordinate as the bounding box mid point (which has a separate snapping option):

Meanwhile I am unsure about the exact difference of "geometry"-nodes or -points and "key points". From the help info below I have the impression that "key points" are exclusively the red circular handles at generic shapes. Whereas the centre of a shape and the bounding box midpoint are coordinates for "geometry" snapping, not for key points. Additionally every key point can also be snapping with Node Tool + Geometry snapping because every key point is placed on a curve while the entire curve reacts on geometry snapping and doesn't exclude the key point coordinate.

• Quote

   

  • Yellow node: Object snaps to shape's key points (often centres) or geometry.
     
  • Snap to shape key points—when checked, objects can be aligned to key points on shapes, such as the start and end of a rounded corner.
  • Snap to object geometry—when checked, curves can be snapped to vertices and not simply to the bounding box or key points. Vertices are object corners or intersections, such as the points of a star, within a shape's bounding box.

   

So the snapping at the geometry centre (not bounding box midpoint) with activated key point + deactivated geometry snapping options appears to be another issue of key point snapping.

[Hangman]

30 minutes ago, thomaso said:

In my previous video the "Centre Points of a Shape" didn't interest me so I did not check these coordinates.

I may be wrong but I would consider the centre point of a shape to be a key point as demonstrated in your screen recording... When only Snap to shape key points is enabled adjusting the shape without changing its bounding box changes the shape's centre point and subsequently where node snapping occurs for the selected Curve. Likewise, if you group two shapes so they have a common bounding box Snap to shape key points will snap to the centre of both shapes individually...

37 minutes ago, thomaso said:

From the help info below I have the impression that "key points" are exclusively the red circular handles at generic shapes.

The help file refers to these as shape handles...

The only reason I don't think this is the case (though again, I could be completely wrong) is because the help file refers to the start and end of a rounded corner both being key points.

With a rounded rectangle, you only have a single Shape handle... I assume that the start and end of a rounded corner would be the two selected nodes shown below but if that is the case then they're not considered key shapes currently when Snap to shape key points is enabled as we've seen... They are covered by object geometry which begs the question:

• Are we looking at this in completely the wrong way or
• What else forms a shape that could be considered a key point?

[MikeTO]

I started to post a bug report for this before I saw that it had been split into a new topic. I don't know exactly how these options should work but that's not important because they do nothing at all. This is what I was writing for the bug report:

1. Turn off all snapping options but select Snap to Shape Key Points and Snap to Object Geometry (it makes no difference if Snap to Object Bounding Boxes is selected but it's a lot easier to know what is going on with it off)
2. Draw a variety of shapes and curves
3. Drag a shape over any of the snapping candidates you drew - the shape will not snap to any point on of the objects

[thomaso]

10 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I don't know exactly how these options should work but that's not important because they do nothing at all.

In particular if they do nothing at all it is even more important to know how these options should work "by design".

Currently (for years) even Serif doesn't seem to know for sure and seem to discuss/clarify it internally first, while, regarding the missing definitions, we can only offer opinions and assumptions or desires.

47 minutes ago, Hangman said:

The only reason I don't think this is the case (though again, I could be completely wrong) is because the help file refers to the start and end of a rounded corner both being key points.

With a rounded rectangle, you only have a single Shape handle... I assume that the start and end of a rounded corner would be the two selected nodes shown below but if that is the case then they're not considered key shapes currently when Snap to shape key points is enabled as we've seen... They are covered by object geometry which begs the question:

• Are we looking at this in completely the wrong way or
• What else forms a shape that could be considered a key point?

Good catch and questions!

This reminds me to earlier debates about the understanding of "key point"… which I personally took to be any coordinate where a curve changes direction / angle – (similar to 'key points' in animation apps) – while other users just understood them as the red "shape handles" which makes me wonder why Serif / the help would use two different terms if they would mean the same. 🤔

Some images from a previous thread with a range of required definitions:

• Is the vertex a key point – Does this curve have a key point at all:

• Have "key point", "key value", "key frame", "key word" clear definitions:

• What is the difference between "point" and "node" –  How do we know if it is a "handle":

• What is defined as the "Centre of a Shape":

[Hangman]

There is a distinct differentiation between Shapes and Objects for certain snapping options when Snapping is enabled... By Object, I mean either a Shape converted to a Curve or an open or closed object drawn using the Pen or Pencil tool...

Switching the following snapping options on individually gives the following results:

Snap to object geometry
An Object's selected node will snap to both a Shape and Curve's circumference (for closed Curves), i.e., its geometry but not its centre point. A Shape won't snap to a Shape or Curve's geometry.

Snap to shape key points
An Object's selected node will snap to a Shape's centre point (differentiated from its bounding box) but won't snap to an Object's centre point. A Shape won't snap to a Shape or Curve's centre point

Snap to object bounding boxes
Both Object's and Shapes will snap to an Object and Shape's bounding box

Snap to object bounding boxes (with Include bounding box midpoints)
As above but including an Object and Shape's vertical and horizontal midpoints

Snap to object bounding boxes (with snap to gaps and sizes)
Snaps to gaps and sizes between Objects and Shapes

 

[Hangman]

1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

Drag a shape over any of the snapping candidates you drew - the shape will not snap to any point on of the objects

Which setting do you have enabled from the Candidates dropdown, as in, have you set a specific number of Candidates (re your reference to Candidates) or were you just using that term generically...

[Dan C]

There is a lot being discussed in this thread - which makes it rather hard to address.

Therefore I will only be commenting on the initial issue raised by Mike, specifically in regards to the "Snap to Shape Key Points" and "Snap to Object Geometry" options.

If there are additional bugs to report with Snapping, please do so in a new thread.
______________________

On 8/5/2024 at 12:21 AM, thomaso said:

It would be helpful to know the details/descriptions of the existing tags in order to be able to determine which ones might still be missing:

• AF-524
• AF-525
• AFD-6827
• AFD-6833

AF-524: 
'Snap to object bounding boxes' is using Regular Bounds to snap to, not the visible bounding box (Base Box by default)
This is currently still open with dev

AF-525:
Snap to Bounding Box Midpoint fails on rotated / grouped objects, either snapping to an incorrect location or does not snap at all.
This has been closed as 'By Design', with the following comment;

Quote

The centre point on the quick shapes are a weight centred that is calculated based on a lot of different information about the shape, not just the base box. This means you cannot just use the base box as a visual guide to whether the shape is central for non circular/symmetric shapes. 

If you snap the guide to the shape then switch the the point transform tool, you will see this has actually snapped to the weighted centre point.

AFD-6827:
Dragging guides from Ruler does not always snap to object until guide has been 'dropped' over object and reselected
This is currently still open with dev

AFD-6833:
Objects in Groups are not considered Snapping Candidates with 'All layers' enabled
This is currently still open with dev

 

On 8/5/2024 at 12:20 PM, thomaso said:

It seems that the first tag AFD-6825 is currently not attached to this or another thread any more. I can't tell whether it is fixed meanwhile or if it "just" got a new number

AFD-6825 was converted to be AF-524, hence the tags automatically updated on the thread - unfortunately the Forum isn't smart enough to also edit my post contents, apologies!

However I don't believe any of the above are specifically related to the "Snap to Shape Key Points" and "Snap to Object Geometry" options that Mike raised here initially.

______________________

On 8/5/2024 at 3:24 PM, MikeTO said:

1. Turn off all snapping options but select Snap to Shape Key Points and Snap to Object Geometry (it makes no difference if Snap to Object Bounding Boxes is selected but it's a lot easier to know what is going on with it off)
2. Draw a variety of shapes and curves
3. Drag a shape over any of the snapping candidates you drew - the shape will not snap to any point on of the objects

I've done some further testing here and I can confirm the following:

Snap to Object Geometry -

Currently, this option will only activate in the following circumstances;

• When drawing a new object - either with the Pen or Quick Shape Tools
• When resizing an object with the Move Tool - not when moving the object directly
• When using the Node Tool to move nodes for a selected object

The inability to Snap using this specific option when moving an object with the Move Tool has been logged with our team previously, I've updated this report and asked our devs directly regarding this option - to see if it could be better named or requires more clarification in the helpfile, if that is to be expected behaviour.
This is logged under AF-4028.

Snap to Shape Key Points -

Thus far in my testing with only this option enabled, I've only been able to snap a selected Node from a Curve object to the centre point of a Shape object, with the Node Tool active.

I'm unsure of the reason for this currently - I might be misunderstanding the design of this option as it seems inconsistent with the helpfile description and therefore I have requested further information from our teams internally.

I'll be sure to update this thread with any information I'm provided on this option, and log with our developers as required.

I hope this helps

[MikeTO]

@Dan C I never thought to test resizing or moving nodes, I was just testing moving shapes. I think you've covered everything I was seeing. Thank you.

[Dan C]

No problem at all, thanks for verifying Mike - as above I'll be sure to update this thread with our devs findings for the Snap to Shape Key Points option

[Dan C]

Our team has confirmed that the Snap to Shape Key Points option is currently working as expected, thus the Helpfile description for this option is incorrect.

The correct behaviour is that which I found in my testing:

19 hours ago, Dan C said:

I've only been able to snap a selected Node from a Curve object to the centre point of a Shape object, with the Node Tool active.

 

A 'Key Point' was described by our team as follows;

Quote

Key points are logical points, not on the actual geometry. Mostly circular or weighted centres.

However I believe we are hoping to improve the number of 'Key Points' offered when using this snapping option in the future.

Therefore I'm logging a bug with our Documentation team now (HELP-261), so that the helpfile can be amended to explain this Snapping options correctly.
I'll also be requesting for more context to be included in the helpfile, such as the requirement to use the Node Tool, or that Object Geometry Snapping will only apply when Resizing an object with the Move Tool, etc.

I hope this clears things up 

[thomaso]

37 minutes ago, Dan C said:

I've only been able to snap a selected Node from a Curve object to the centre point of a Shape object, with the Node Tool active.

FWIW (for the 'key point' help text?): Also the Point Transform Tool snaps to the centre / key point of these shapes. Additionally it displays this key point(s) along with the corners of the selected shape(s) (where it doesn't snap if only key point snapping is active).

While there are just a few shape objects with their centre key point different from their bounding box centre, it seems that the Callout Shapes don't display the centre key point but show another centre instead where the Transform Tool does not snap. Also with the Node Tool + a dragged curve node I can't detect any snapping point. Do the Callout shapes have no key point at all?

[Dan C]

23 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Also the Point Transform Tool snaps to the centre / key point of these shapes

Thanks for confirming this - I had not thought to check the Point Transform Tool, but I concur this also allows snapping to Key Points - I've included this within the documentation report now!

23 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Additionally it displays this key point(s) along with the corners of the selected shape(s) (where it doesn't snap if only key point snapping is active).

I don't believe this is explicitly the key point being displayed. I understand this to be a central handle that can be used with the Point Transform Tool to transform the object around the Transform Origin, but it does appear to originate in the same location as the 'key point' used for snapping.

I don't believe this is the 'key point' as it's present for Quick Shapes that don't currently have a key point snapping location, such as the Callout Quick Shapes.

23 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Do the Callout shapes have no key point at all?

From my testing, it does not appear as though they do currently, this is also the case for the Heart, Tear & Arrow Quick Shapes - as above our team are hoping to update and improve these 'key points', so I'll be sure to bring this to their attention for further consideration

[thomaso]

4 minutes ago, Dan C said:

I don't believe this is explicitly the key point being displayed (…) but it does appear to originate in the same location as the 'key point' used for snapping.

What makes you assume this if the location of this visually marked and snapping location is always* identical with the key point position? If the two differ, how is the one for the Transform Tool defined?   * it is at least for the Triangle and Trapezoide shown above

[Dan C]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

What makes you assume this if the location of this visually marked and snapping location is always* identical with the key point position?

As above, the Quick Shapes that don't currently have a Key Point snapping location do have a central handle(s) for the Point Transform Tool, so they aren't identical.

Key Points for snapping are manually defined by our devs - and they've just confirmed that these Quick Shape tools (Callout, Heart, Tear & Arrow) that don't have a Key Point is the expected behaviour for those objects currently, but they may look to be included in the future.

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

If the two differ, how is the one for the Transform Tool defined?

I believe these are also manually defined by our devs based on our understanding of the 'best' location for them.
For example the Arrow Quick Tool has 2 'central' Transform Tool nodes either side of the central point:

The Tear Tool has a 'central' node in the middle of the ellipse shape towards the bottom of the object:

However for certain shapes, the 'central' Point Transform node will happen to align with the Key Point of the shape, as that's simply where the node makes the most sense

[MikeTO]

@Dan C Thanks for the clarification. It is a bit odd that snapping to key shapes and object geometry works for adding and moving nodes on a path and for drawing and resizing quick shapes, but not for moving quick shapes. It means I can't snap the two close vertices of these stars together because the red star's vertex isn't on the bounding box.

 

[Dan C]

You're welcome! 

7 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

It is a bit odd that snapping to key shapes and object geometry works for adding and moving nodes on a path and for drawing and resizing quick shapes, but not for moving quick shapes.

I agree, and can verify this is what has essentially been raised in AF-4028 - within that report our devs have confirmed that the current behaviour is technically expected due to how these snapping options have been implemented, but also concur that we understand this is not the ideal behaviour for these options, and performing full geometry snapping when moving is therefore something we hope to add in the future.

In the meantime, some further clarification within the Helpfile for these options will hopefully reduce user confusion as to what these options can achieve