[Affinity Photo] Why i gave up from Affinity Photo v2 after trial and came back to Photoshop [long post]

[Agrafka]

Hi.

I'm not here to just complain. I hope that some things will (finally) be improved or implemented - Affinity Photo deserves it! AP is a very promising piece of software, but on the other hand, I don't understand all this mythology and propaganda introduced to me (in internet) as an alternative to Photoshop (PS).

Thanks Serif/Canva for 6month trial - i needed a week to say NO. And im not happy with that.

These are my first impressions after trying out Affinity Photo v2 (PC, Windows 11) and these are not encouraging at all. Im aware i didnt even scratch the surface - this list would be propably much, much longer.

[crucial] means that lack of given functionality disqualifies this software for me (please take also into account that english is not my native language).

1.       [crucial] I would say curves are statistically the most often used tools in this type of software – in Affinity Photo, this tool is one big disappointment.
a)  Well known droppers (white/gray/black)  don’t even exist (used for example for fast white balancing). Even amateur “despised” Gimp seems to offer these (in levels), but you can't find them in AP (neither in curves nor in levels).  It's also implemented in photopea.com (WWW semi-clone of PS). And no, black/white droppers are not equivalent to sliders, as commented later in this post: https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/182478-white-black-and-grey-point-pickers/
b) “picker”  don’t work as supposed for me. When clicked on image, it should mark point on curve – not only  when I click AND drag. I want to see this point dynamically moving on the curve when I'm dragging mouse over the image (just like in PS). It's so helpful!
c) Big drawback. it seems there is no way to mark point on curves by clicking image and in the same time mark points on curves separately in all RGB channels. In Photoshop, it's done by clicking with CTRL+SHIFT – all RGB curves have then their own mark. It's very, very useful, and often used by me to adjust colors. Its must-have for me.
c) In my case, moving black/white sliders has large annoying slider delay if  I'm doing it fast enough.
d) Input/output X, Y fields from 0 to 1 ? (through 999). What the heck is that? In normal software, it's 0-254. How can I now input proper values from RGB data during adjusting RGB colors? It's useless for me.
e) lack of little things like resizing curve window, set grid size, effect visibility, auto… but I could live with that.
f) From what I see, it seems like GREY histogram (which I prefer) still don’t work properly after years (I compared AP histogram in my picture with others software), and this bug is not repaired? Correct me if I'm wrong.  https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/115614-issue-with-curves-adjustment-histogram-master/

2.   [crucial] No overlay mask. I was shocked when I realized that such fundamental functionality just don’t exist in "professional" AP.  Found this topic (5 years - look at date):
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/39891-how-to-show-red-overlay-when-masking/
Serif... you develop this software since 2015 and no mask overlay?
BTW. “Refine Mask” as overlay is no option at all. First, it takes clicks to set up sliders, and then  – at every brush paint you have to wait a few seconds for “refine selections” pop-up info and its action. It's a nightmare and totally unusable, comparing to classical overlay mask. Refine mask Is useless for this particular task.

3. [crucial] Inability to use tools other than “brush” on masks. You want for example use many manual techniques to refine mask like burn/dodge. use levels. You can't. Serif allows you use only brush tool? My worst fears were confirmed by: 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/18929-why-does-dodge-and-burn-tools-dont-work-on-masks/
I agree 100% with this guy " Im image processing professional for more than 20 years. And I can assure you that dodging and burning a mask is A MUST for all professionals"
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/60607-dodgeburn-mask-please/ (this "please" comes from 2018....)

4. [important] No collapsible panels in UI. This should be standard. In Affinity Photo I'm constantly forced to move, close or reopen windows/panels due to lack of space. After some time of work, this drives me to crazy. Foldable panels are a must-have in my workflow. It's implemented in PS and also in photopea.com made by one person. In my opinion, it should be the first thing Serif should change if they plan to redesign user interface.

5. [important] Making mask vs clipping  is CATASTROPHE.  This is a very poorly designed “monster” and I was sick when I needed to use this in AP. How bad it is show comments under YT like here: "Clipping vs Masking Layers (Affinity Photo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fiCvurH0is)

6. [important] Unacceptable long updates on modern PC for masks/image previews (to 15 seconds). I'm for example editing  simple mask and changes are not reflected on mask previews for 10-15 seconds!?? I have no words how this is frustrating because I have habit to wait for visual "confirmation". But maybe its on PC only (didnt try Mac).

7.  [important] Gradient Map Adjustment. I use it a lot, and how bad it is here! I have hundreds of gradients in folders. How can i access, see and manage them from THIS? Switching to inconvenient adjustments preset window? Comparing Gradient Map UI to Photoshop (which is not ideal also) is like comparing heaven to earth.  Gradient map is another example "abandoned" not finished feature like curves mentioned earlier. It just exists on paper, but with no practical functionality for me – it's „professionally” simplified to the ground.

8. [important] Adjustment window itself.  Another catastrophe. You cant collapse by one click all expanded presets. Presets previews are large, no option to change it ( imagine you have thousands of them). Chaos and mess. No option to order presets in folders (only LUT have this programmed – why?) and subfolders.  By  such „little things” i feel  i’m fighting with this software instead working with this.

9. [important] Samplers. When placed in AP, they are not numbered on picture at all! How it come ? Its annoying using 4 non numbered samplers, not mention  more, and they are tiny and not well visible.  I again checked out of curiosity Gimp – it of course also have numbered – because its obvious they should be!

10. [important]  "Hue Range" very important function implemented in v2, but it seems again - like they stopped in half way - version from PS is  just better, much more intuitive and flexible (droplets/previews/localized cluster). Color wheel is not such precise as sliders. I dont like it.

11. [important !!!!!!!!!!] Affinity Photo gives me NO visible clue if „blendif” (blend options) were used on layer. I don't know if on given layer blendif effect was used. What i did is check layer one by one. Good luck when you return to old project with 50+ layers.  Something like that shouldn't happens in this class of software.

 

Minor - its when Serif wants to make my life difficult and punish me

[minor] No FILL adjustment layer. I would also say its one of the most used type of adj. layer by me, but it doesnt exist in AP.  Even if you click here and there (from menu) you get it, but I can not easily change fill color by 2x click on Fill (damn!).
[minor] no fast „desaturate” option  https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/123401-simple-quick-desaturate-layer-function/.
[minor] no auto-align layers option (this is NOT align images - stack option from File menu)
[minor] im not able to drag and drop layers/images from one opened file to another. It also should be standard functionality. I  use it quite often in Photoshop because its fast and convenient. Yes, yes i can ctrl+c/ctrl+v but what if i use tablet and keyboard is aside.
[minor] "Fill Opacity" why the heck its hidden under blend options ? I use it A LOT with 8 specials. In Photoshop its visible near opacity so its easy accesible and you see from the first glance that it was touched.
[minor] I often use blend options (who not). In my case, most often its linear light. Why every time i have to scroll down to get to it? All modes should be visible at first glance. If someone own microscopic 14” monitor then scroll bar should be automatically activated.
[minor] No „reload image” which i also often use (damn!)
Mentioned also in:  forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/34876-how-do-you-reload-an-image-in-affinity-photo/
"I can't figure out how to do something so basic as reloading an image Comment is from… 2017.
[minor] I cant temporarly disable mask when layer is expanded. Its irritating because you need to do more clicks.
[minor] I cant resize layer thumbnails more than small/medium/large in options menu. „Large” is small actually - why is that?
[minor]Serif applied strange concept of „always” square layers icons (i dont like it) which is confusing especially when most of your images are rectangle and their previews  are additionaly squized to this square (are smaller than they could be). „Very large”  thumbnail size is very neded!
[minor] Color picker tool is  crosshair instead to be eyedropper  which is much more visible. I found i often had troubles to localize this crosshair on image in many situations. In PS i see immediately where it is.
[minor] visibility of layer (eyeball) is in AP on right side. Believe me or not but this is annoying. I quite often enable and disable layers or groups – its fundamental functionality i/we use. I want this "eye" to be as close to me as it can. Instead of this,  they placed visibility icon on right side with tiny! small white icon.  On left side they cluttered this space with weak distinguishable „image/pixel” icons. Is this software made by photographers for photographers? I dont think so.  Serif should compare how comfortable, clear and nice it is made in Photoshop.  
[minor] when you open file in AP its tab file name takes whole width of workspace. What is worse, when you open more files i have problem to recognize which tab is active!

What else drives me away from this software (for now)
- very, very slow progress of Affinity Photo. They started impressively but stopped. I've looked through all the updates since version 1.0 and its not optimistic, even more - it looks dramatic. For example It took them 6 years? to realize neccessity of background/foreground colors icons under main bar (left) tools (v2)… Can you imagine that?
- developers are not interested what community have to say. Bugs, improvements, suggestions are not addressed (my impression when looked at forum)
- bugs which a few times crashed my AP. When PS crashed to me? I don’t remember...
- Generally I have impression that, many tools they made (like curves, gradient map etc) are in most simple/cheap version and they dont improve/refine them later on, just abandoned them.
- UI matters. Its not big deal, but I don’t like AP windows/panel style where buttons are not “visible” buttons but just text blended into background. Its confusing. Even when you hover by mouse “text button” it don’t react, nothing happens (no highlights). Such UI don’t look “professional” its looks more like made by beginner designer in college in hurry.
- i dont even want to mention other functionalites which just crush Affinity Photo like Develop Persona vs Adobe Camera Raw.

 

 

[Medical Officer Bones]

Pretty much agree with almost everything. And 99% has been discussed before.

Just to note here that Photoshop's curves aren't perfect either. Photoshop restricts moves to the current image mode only (Affinity Photo and PhotoLine are two examples of image editors that do not enforce this and allow users to work in LAB mode even when the image mode is RGB, for example). This is one reason why I left Photoshop many years ago. Photoshop is incredibly restrictive in regard to image mode and adjustments. But yeah: Affinity's curve adjustment dialog and functionality is rather half-baked.

And Photoshop's TINY curve window has become almost unusable on larger highdef screens for myself. PhotoLine and Gimp allow the curve window to be scaled as large as the user requires without limitations. This is actually a much requested GUI improvement that still isn't implemented even after years and years of PS users complaining.

But yeah, I hear you. My own experience with Affinity Photo: excellent first impressions, yet when digging a little deeper it's a case of "death by a million paper cuts".

[Meliora spero]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:10 PM, Agrafka said:

- Generally I have impression that, many tools they made (like curves, gradient map etc) are in most simple/cheap version and they dont improve/refine them later on, just abandoned them.

Bullseye. That's Affinity in a nutshell. 

The algorithms are decades behind contemporary algorithms and expectations.

Try to carefully consider how many consecutive miracles from a single company you would need to experience for Affinity to even slightly catch up with all these excellent examples.

Then try to consider the scenario where one of your friends is waiting for just as many miracles in the same or a different context, and how much it would itch and crawl in you to say, "Don't be so naive, for heaven's sake, find a better product NOW!"

[baoyu]

I am for some of your points while against some. 

One of the against is

On 7/25/2024 at 10:10 PM, Agrafka said:

Well known droppers (white/gray/black)  don’t even exist (used for example for fast white balancing)

For white balance there's a dedicated white balance adjustment layer. It's better to seperate two disdinguish ajustments into their own layers. They possibly interfere with each other when you want tweak one of them.

 

Here's another one

On 7/25/2024 at 10:10 PM, Agrafka said:

d) Input/output X, Y fields from 0 to 1 ? (through 999). What the heck is that? In normal software, it's 0-254. How can I now input proper values from RGB data during adjusting RGB colors? It's useless for me.

"0 to 1" follows CG industry convention. Photoshop is growned up in the earl days for photography, print and graphic and used to work in 8bit precision. AP is born to support 8bit, 16bit int/float point and 32bit float point precision. It's common in the CG industry that "0 to 1" means standard dynamic range and people get more intuition to predict the "dark tone, mid tone and highlight tone" with "0 to 1" other than "0 to 255". Let alone the majority tools of photoshop can't work with 32bit float workflow.

 

AP still sucks in a lot of aspects but not every when it's different from PS should be its wrong.

[Agrafka]

1 hour ago, baoyu said:

For white balance there's a dedicated white balance adjustment layer. It's better to seperate two disdinguish ajustments into their own layers. They possibly interfere with each other when you want tweak one of them.

I'm not sure if you are familiar how these eyedroppers works in PS and why there are. By clicking black/white eyedroppers, you can indicate exactly where white/black should be set on the image. So i don't get your point - you insinuate these 3 droppers are needless? In regard to white balance -  you can use them (especially when "grey" area is tricky to find) just by clicking white/black dropper and point on image adequate black/white area (because of simple fact that pure blacks/whites don't contain "color") and color shifts are adjusted.

2 hours ago, baoyu said:

and people get more intuition to predict the "dark tone, mid tone and highlight tone" with "0 to 1" other than "0 to 255"

But what people. What is real, practical use of x,y in your workflow? I would be glad to know. In my case, when I want to match colors using curve in each channel, I just put input/output values from 0-255 because RGB use that - this is a well known precise, manual method to match colors in given area.  Gimp use also 0-255. What can i do with 0.999 values?

 

3 hours ago, baoyu said:

but not every when it's different from PS should be its wrong.

It's not about to be different from PS, but about the comfort of work and the availability of tools proven over the years.

[baoyu]

I've been using PS for work for about 15 years. Not all of your points I'm against. Actually for almost half of your opinions, I feel the same. 

 

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

I'm not sure if you are familiar how these eyedroppers works in PS and why there are. By clicking black/white eyedroppers, you can indicate exactly where white/black should be set on the image.

For this eye dropper function of curve/level adjustment, I am with you, it's a pity for AP not having this. 

 

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

In regard to white balance -  you can use them (especially when "grey" area is tricky to find)

In AP's white balance tool doesn't require you to pick the exact grey, you just need to pick the area where you think it should be neutral.

 

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

practical use of x,y in your workflow?

Just consider them as input/output, they're just the same thing with different name.

 

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

input/output values from 0-255 because RGB use that - this is a well known precise

0.000-1.000 with 3 digits that's 10001 stops of precision, while 0-255 without decimals that's only 256 stops.

And in CG industry, people use Nuke/Fusion/Natron/Autodesk Flame etc. They almost always use 0-1 with even more digits than AP.

It's not true that RGB uses 0-255. You can just what ever precision you want with RGB. It's 8bit sRGB that uses 0-255, because 2^8=256. And if you want, 0-255 can also be displayed as 0-1 with increment of 0.0039...

It's OK to use 0-255, but with 0.000-1.000, you have more precision. So why not?

[Agrafka]

1 hour ago, baoyu said:

In AP's white balance tool doesn't require you to pick the exact grey, you just need to pick the area where you think it should be neutral.

It's truism, it don't have to be "exact" gray (128) and it's not that "in AP's" but generally this is how  single "gray" eyedropper works in PS. I suggest you just to install PS, and compare functionality of these three droppers regarding white balancing. In many situations black dropper give you better results than gray dropper (of course it depends on the type of photo).

 

1 hour ago, baoyu said:

So why not? (...) they're just the same thing with different name.

So what is application in this kind of raster graphic software? I asked how you practically use x,y in your workflow... but you didnt answer.
You claim its better - so for example i have RGB pixel value 69,80,200 and now, I want to set up RGB curves lets say to exact 30,50,170 for this pixel - how can simply do that with x/y? (precisely output value in PS).

[baoyu]

I just said that I've been using PS for 15 years.

To be honest, in photoshop in terms of white balance, I always do it in ACR which operates in 16bit before the image being brought in PS. If I have to tweak white balance in PS, I just just the camera raw filter instead of using curve. As I said, it's not precise enough in 8 bit as well as it's not a good practice to combine mixed operation in one adjustment layer.

Regarding to the 3 eyedroppers in curves of PS, I am sure it's extremely useful when dealing with a badly damaged image. It's rare that we have to such damaged assets. On the other hand, those 3 eyedroppers seams to sample only the one pixel exactly you pick other than averaging neighbouring pixels (I'm not sure about this, but PS have no option changing the sampling radius). So it's hard to deal with noisy/high-frequency-detailed image. Basiclly the function is equally labour-intensive and effective as do it by hand.

 Well, again the "x,y" is equal to "input/output" in photoshop...

 

On 7/29/2024 at 11:13 PM, Agrafka said:

so for example i have RGB pixel value 69,80,200 and now, I want to set up RGB curves lets say to exact 30,50,170 for this pixel - how can simply do that with x/y? (precisely output value in PS).

Well to accomplish this,  manual calculation and type in node values in each channel.

30/69=0.4347, 50/80=0.625, 170/200=0.85, in each chanel, make the top right nodes' x/y or input/output to (1, 0.4347), (1, 0.625), (1, 0.85).

So what's the convient way to do this in PS? I guess it's the same as AP.

[Agrafka]

7 hours ago, baoyu said:

in photoshop in terms of white balance, I always do it in ACR which operates which operates in 16bi

That's great, but very often we also work on ready-made 8bit photos. So you are still "against" conclusions about three droppers or not because its not clear for me.  I wrote above: "Well known droppers don’t even exist" as my main objection and  "for example for fast white balancing" as one of additional methods to use them and why all three are better than white balance adjustment from AP which you were reffering to.

7 hours ago, baoyu said:

manual calculation and type in (...)So what's the convient way to do this in PS? I guess it's the same as AP.

Man, don't you really see you contradict yourself ??? You missed this part: "how can I simply do that with x/y". I would have to make every time three calculations before simple task and put them into this odd x/y. At the same time, you claim that it's like Photoshop. That's funny, you know...

[baoyu]

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

I would have to make every time three calculations before simple task and put them into this odd x/y.

So how do you accomplish that in PS using curve?

To me, I can't find an eaiser way to do the work, no matter what software.

I'd appreciate that you could show the method.

[baoyu]

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

ready-made 8bit photos

8 bit is OK for the camera raw filter. 

 

1 hour ago, Agrafka said:

So you are still "against" conclusions about three droppers

⬆️ READ THIS AGAIN ⬇️

8 hours ago, baoyu said:

Regarding to the 3 eyedroppers in curves of PS, I am sure it's extremely useful when dealing with a badly damaged image. It's rare that we have to such damaged assets. On the other hand, those 3 eyedroppers seams to sample only the one pixel exactly you pick other than averaging neighbouring pixels (I'm not sure about this, but PS have no option changing the sampling radius). So it's hard to deal with noisy/high-frequency-detailed image. Basiclly the function is equally labour-intensive and effective as do it by hand.

 

[Agrafka]

14 hours ago, baoyu said:

So how do you accomplish that in PS using curve?

I'd appreciate that you could show the method.

?????

You wrote you have been using PS for 15 years ? To match/adjust colors I was talking about (1d), just put directly RGB values (target) to each curve into output field and colors will be perfectly matched (of course, each rgb curve first need his own input mark, input = source). This manual technique is as old as hills. No need of any calculations, so I don't know again what you're talking about now. X/Y values are useless. If i wanted at every 5 minutes make calculations i would specialize in Excel not in PS. Unlike me, you still didn't give me  example how you practically use x/y :p. If someone, from some reasons need x/y that's OK -I'm not against,  but Serif should first enable normal input/output.

Sorry, but further discussion is pointless for me in this matter.

Best regards

 

 

[baoyu]

On 8/1/2024 at 5:03 PM, Agrafka said:

To match/adjust colors I was talking about (1d)

Man, I will not stop you from using curve to do so.

But I highly suggest you to use the magic wand tool with some threshold to select the exact color and fill whatever color you like. It is the exact tool built for the exact purpose.

While the curve tool is designed to perform gradual operation on a tonal range around the desired tone. 

[JoanK]

I signed up to say dont worry and keep up good work! I watched your video and it is the best factual list of affinity photo pros and cons, I could find on internet. No sugarcoating. Agrafka, banning you because of censorship and the lame excuse that you asked someone if he was an adult is surprising to everyone. This is beneatch contempt and shame for affinity.

[myclay]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:10 PM, Agrafka said:

3. [crucial] Inability to use tools other than “brush” on masks. You want for example use many manual techniques to refine mask like burn/dodge. use levels. You can't. Serif allows you use only brush tool? My worst fears were confirmed by: 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/18929-why-does-dodge-and-burn-tools-dont-work-on-masks/
I agree 100% with this guy " Im image processing professional for more than 20 years. And I can assure you that dodging and burning a mask is A MUST for all professionals"
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/60607-dodgeburn-mask-please/ (this "please" comes from 2018....)

This here is the closest I have come so far with using the Dodge and Burn feature for Masking inside current Affinity.

EDIT; The post is not meant to minimize that crucial point/feature request. The macro stuff doesn´t come close and having Dodge and Burn properly available while Masking would indeed be helpful.

[influxx]

Well said. you have more patience than i do for spelling out in great detail what needs to be done with Affinity tools. Serif should use this as their development blueprint for the next versions moving forward.