Affinity does not provide quality, it is time to part with Serif.

[davaruna]

10 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

I expect you are following the thread and I doubt the forum email system is sophisticated enough to remove blocked users from the forum notifications it sends, sorry if that's the case, that really is not bbrother's fault who is only describing his genuine software experience as he's entitled to do. It's not whining, it's feedback.

I appreciate your answer and glad to know you are open to any kind of criticism. I have none now and hope that remains that way for me. I just got off on the wrong side of the thread I suppose.

[davaruna]

46 minutes ago, loukash said:

Why "childish"? It simply reduces the signal-to-noise ratio. This function exists in online forum software for a reason.  

Thank you. I am new here (again) and really didnt want to get overwhelmed in social media battles. Like I said elsewhere, I got up on the wrong side of the thread and I will show myself out

[bbrother]

14 hours ago, PaoloT said:

The same existence of these forums (to which were added groups on Facebook and YouTube, and who knows how many other places) is a demonstration of Serif's willingness to listen.

Listening is not everything, you also have to "hear".
And in Serif they may be listening, but they act and work as if they couldn't hear.

Examples:

2017 → Artboard export as SVG includes a <rect> named Artboard — Request to improve SVG export. Namely, to not add the artboard <rect> tag in the SVG export. Particularly irritating for people creating icons, but not only.

2020 → Disable update reminder — Request for an option to disable the update reminder and annoying update notification when the program is launched. For an experienced developer, it only takes 15 minutes to write a few lines of code that will modify several relevant entries in the registry.

2022 → how to disable export preview? — Users are asking for a simple thing, to make export preview optional, because it sucks, and they've been waiting for years with no response.

You don't have to write thousands of lines of code to implement these features. For an experienced dev, it's one day's work.

 

14 hours ago, PaoloT said:

They don't publish their development plans and their bank account, and I think we are mature enough to understand that, not owning their stocks, we are not entitled to know them.

You forgot how often during V1 development the developers themselves released many teasers on the forum of what was currently in development. What happened to make it such a big corporate secret now? If they want to build a bond with the brand, let them return to these good habits.

As for their account balance, anyone who wants to can easily find their financial reports. In one annual report, the management board boasts that 2022 ended with an incredible success. Revenue growth by 32% and operating profit by 24%. Have more developers been hired, has the quality improved, or is development faster? Answer to yourself.

 

14 hours ago, PaoloT said:

Complaining that we have lost faith, and we feel tricked, sounds to me very childish.

To all. Especially to those who have an unhealthy relationship as a customer and supplier with Serif.  If you do not agree with what I wrote, present counter-arguments that prove otherwise. Ostentatious behavior and personal accusations add nothing to the discussion.

[Alfred]

7 minutes ago, bbrother said:

Listening is not everything, you also have to "hear".

That’s the wrong way around. Anyone who doesn’t suffer from a hearing impairment will hear sounds around them all the time, but they won’t extract meaning from those sounds unless they listen.

 

11 minutes ago, bbrother said:

You forgot how often during V1 development the developers themselves released many teasers on the forum of what was currently in development. What happened to make it such a big corporate secret now? If they want to build a bond with the brand, let them return to these good habits.

When there was a public roadmap for version 1, after each point release there were inevitable cries of “You’ve promised us a [fill in the blank]. Where is it?” So it’s not terribly surprising that the roadmap was eventually hidden.

The feature roadmap for version 1 included things like a Knife Tool (only added for version 2) and a Blend Tool (still not added, as of version 2.5). An Image Trace Tool and a Dimension Tool may well have been on there, too.

[PaoloT]

1 hour ago, bbrother said:

Listening is not everything, you also have to "hear".

Indeed, it's annoying that they don't comply to our orders!

 

[PaulEC]

53 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

Indeed, it's annoying that they don't comply to our orders!

Yes, it is strange! You would think that every time anyone suggests anything, and a couple of other people say "+1", Affinity would implement it straight away.

[bbrother]

2 hours ago, Alfred said:

When there was a public roadmap for version 1, after each point release there were inevitable cries of “You’ve promised us a [fill in the blank]. Where is it?” So it’s not terribly surprising that the roadmap was eventually hidden.

Better communication would be enough and such accusations could be avoided or at least reduced to a minimum. The roadmap could remain public and updated as needed. But it's convenient to keep it secret, then you won't be held accountable for lack of results and poor progress. That's not how you build trust.

Going forward. I am convinced that there are many things that users would not have reacted negatively to if Serif had properly communicated and presented the changes, but also the arguments for these changes in advance.

 

32 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

Yes, it is strange! You would think that every time anyone suggests anything, and a couple of other people say "+1", Affinity would implement it straight away.

No one expects Serif to implement anything anyone suggests. The requests I used as an example in this post are reasonable, widely supported, and don't require a lot of work to implement. Unfortunately, no one in Serif has looked into them for several years.

[PaulEC]

23 minutes ago, bbrother said:

No one expects Serif to implement anything anyone suggests.

Oh, of course, not everyone, just a few people, like yourself!

[bbrother]

39 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

Oh, of course, not everyone, just you!

If by accident or purpose you're referring to my previous post about my must have list than I'm going to disappoint you. I've created this list over time mainly based on the most requested features from the Feedback & Suggestions section. But that doesn't matter anymore because I've thrown in the towel. I'm fed up with mediocre quality and bugs.

Here is a link to this post so everyone can read it → My „must have” list, if met in V2, will make me stay on this boat.

There is nothing extraordinary on the list I provided. 99% are features that many users have been asking about for a long time and which should have been available long ago after almost a decade of application development. Except APub because it's much younger. He's only 4 years old👶😄

[bbrother]

Jus finished last project started  in Affinity. As usual, I encountered several limitations and bugs that I had to deal with and find a workaround. Fortunately,i managed to do it. So it's time for a summary and the last posts on the forum. 

Despite the marketing crap served by Serif, Affinity apps are not intended for professionals. Those apps are for undemanding hobbyists with a tight budget who, in exchange for an affordable price, are willing to turn a blind eye to shortcomings, a limited number of tools, bugs and slow development.

The workflow is far from professional. Instead of solutions and workflows that have been proven for years and liked by users, you get ones that are clumsy, unintuitive and ineffective. Many of the concepts used are one-to-one copies of older software that Serif shipped in the 1990s, which I don't think work very well.

Quality is not the strong point of the Affinity package. I feel like the company ignores users and their requests. It focuses more on profit and generating revenues through numerous promotional and marketing campaigns, improving its image, giving the impression that it has a mission, than on providing users with solid, precise and high-quality tools.

I'm surprised I was so patient. Unfortunately, I had no other choice. Maybe something will change in Serif and they will start providing quality, then maybe I will go back to using their applications. Although I sincerely doubt it.

Note to devs: You need to try harder.
Note to CEO: @Ash You have failed.
Note to QA head: @Patrick Connor You failed to. But with the resources you were given, and such company strategy from my point of view it was a mission impossible.

I wish everyone good luck.

[Granddaddy]

As a retired amateur whose livelihood and general contentment do not depend on what happens to Affinity Photo, I find no reason to become angry at the company nor at the people who work there. Elsewhere I gave my reasons for choosing Affinity about 7 years ago. I remain grateful to the people who created it. I've also described why I bought the Affinity V2 Universal License. With APhoto, I've produced many wonderful photo prints, collages, and family portraits that are framed on our walls. I've restored ancient, damaged photos for friends. It's been great fun.

But this does seem like a good place to recall Granddaddy's Principles of the Compelling Reason that I stated at
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/201403-canva/page/3/#comment-1192784

Granddaddy's Principles of the Compelling Reason
1.) When a person is satisfied using software that is good enough, only a compelling reason will persuade that person to change to different software 
2.) When a person is dissatisfied using particular software, then only a compelling reason will persuade that person to continue using that software 

I recently started using a competing photo editor for my routine photo processing. I at least found compelling reasons to pay for this competing product. Among these are (in no particular order)

• completely non-destructive editing
• absence of extraneous white lines around images on screen
• tiny sidecar files instead of humongous .afphoto files to preserve work for future modification
• somewhat scalable UI
• powerful AI masking/selecting that saves me a lot of time, labor, and frustration
• image file management
• flexible and customizable export to desired folder
• emphasis photo editing (my main interest) rather than desktop publishing
• frequent free updates with very significant functional improvements every month or two

Each of these benefits and more addresses APhoto issues that I've reported on in these forums over several years, issues that many others have discussed also, issues that Affinity has never addressed.

To be sure, I am not certain after just a couple of months experience with this new product whether I will find enough compelling reasons to abandon APhoto. The learning curve on the new software was surprisingly steep as the concepts seem almost the inverse of what I've grown comfortable with in Affinity. There seems to be far less user support. Especially there is a dearth of high-quality, user-produced tutorials when compared to Affinity. There is no free user forum.

The fundamental question for me will come when Canva releases the next major upgrade to APhoto (V. 3, I assume)

Will the next paid release of Affinity provide compelling reasons for me to buy that new version?

At the moment, based on experience, I have strong doubts that it will, but I hope Canva can accomplish such a compelling upgrade.

 

[Danielcz]

7 hours ago, bbrother said:

Jus finished last project started  in Affinity. As usual, I encountered several limitations and bugs that I had to deal with and find a workaround. Fortunately,i managed to do it. So it's time for a summary and the last posts on the forum. 

Despite the marketing crap served by Serif, Affinity apps are not intended for professionals. Those apps are for undemanding hobbyists with a tight budget who, in exchange for an affordable price, are willing to turn a blind eye to shortcomings, a limited number of tools, bugs and slow development.

The workflow is far from professional. Instead of solutions and workflows that have been proven for years and liked by users, you get ones that are clumsy, unintuitive and ineffective. Many of the concepts used are one-to-one copies of older software that Serif shipped in the 1990s, which I don't think work very well.

Quality is not the strong point of the Affinity package. I feel like the company ignores users and their requests. It focuses more on profit and generating revenues through numerous promotional and marketing campaigns, improving its image, giving the impression that it has a mission, than on providing users with solid, precise and high-quality tools.

I'm surprised I was so patient. Unfortunately, I had no other choice. Maybe something will change in Serif and they will start providing quality, then maybe I will go back to using their applications. Although I sincerely doubt it.

Note to devs: You need to try harder.
Note to CEO: @Ash You have failed.
Note to QA head: @Patrick Connor You failed to. But with the resources you were given, and such company strategy from my point of view it was a mission impossible.

I wish everyone good luck.

I wouldnt be that brutal but i have to say that honeymoon phase has ended even on my side, but still im kind of passively waiting where it will lead, im glad that at least variable fonts were implemented.

Its bugging me, where is the problem? was it originaly done as some dirty mac app with lots of "hacked-in" github libraries with bad code decisions because they didnt expected such explosion in popularity? or they dont pay enought to hire some specialist in the field? Or programmers with deep knowledge in graphic editing software development dont wont to work in the UK and want to live in the US?   

Serif have 300 people? but it doesnt feel like that. not even like 50. Productivity since 2.0 (Covid-19 era and beyond) feels really abysmal compared to something like Blender Foundation with just dozens of devs (highly specialized in their field) and super lean managment.

[PaulEC]

6 minutes ago, Danielcz said:

Serif have 300 people?

Unless they've taken on quite a few more since the recent Canva take over, it's more like 80 odd, and that's the total, they are not all developers!

[FrankenGraphics]

According to wiki, it's 90 people all in all. Which would include all sorts of staffing. 

There are a few things i think are often forgotten in these types of complaints:

-When you have users in the millions, you just don't push features willy nilly. The bigger the userbase, the slower the QA goes so you don't ruin the day of thousands of customers. 
-Even with rigorous testing, bugs and quirks will slip through, especially for a relatively small team like Serif is. When that happens, you can't push the fix willy nilly either, for risk of causing further issues.
-You can't just recruit 30 more developers/designers/supporting staff and think it'll pan out well. Sudden growth is unhealthy growth which consumes lots of resources. Also, you need to take that process slowly so you don't put the cohesion of the product at risk.
-I'm guessing, but the merger probably means they need to work on things that don't have immediate results user-side, too. 
-The team is small enough that they can't easily/magically assign a floor to fasttrack a high-demand suite of features at a fingersnap, but it's also large enough that every design decision requires concerted effort and time spent on intra-staff communication. 

I'm maintainging a very niche graphics tool for a userbase of a couple hundred. As a lone coder, it's easy to forget the overhead of time required to do something as large-scale as this where dozens of heads are involved. I also don't need to bother as much about the appearance of my tool, it's fine to let features be quirky until next update. At the user scale affinity is, regressing a feature can on the other hand be the better option until it's ready, compared to let a quirky feature exist in a public release and cause damage to reputation. 

 

Edited June 23, 2024 by FrankenGraphics

[bbrother]

19 hours ago, FrankenGraphics said:

You can't just recruit 30 more developers/designers/supporting staff and think it'll pan out well.

A new, talented programmer does not need much time to acclimate to a new team, especially if the company has a good culture and work organization. Besides, Serif has had plenty of time to expand its dev team, doing so gradually over the years. As a reminder, Affinity Designer (macOS version) will celebrate its 10th birthday this year.

The lack of appropriate resources falls on the account of the management board and the CEO. That's why I wrote that Ash failed.

If you have more marketing and sales employees than developers, it's no wonder that the functions and tools are so underdeveloped.

Those apps literally drowning in bugs. Unreliable precision, lack of quality without stability.

19 hours ago, FrankenGraphics said:

At the user scale affinity is, regressing a feature can on the other hand be the better option until it's ready, compared to let a quirky feature exist in a public release and cause damage to reputation.

I fully agree with that. 👍

[FrankenGraphics]

To bring up some positives, here's some things i've found in Designer that i've been absolutely delighted by:

-Tap a tool hotkey a 2nd time to revert to last used tool. Tap as much as you like to switch between the two. This is so simple, elegant and easily discovered it makes you wonder why anybody at adobe ever thought "spring loaded" keys were a good idea.  Those are such a hassle to use that it's just simpler to fingerdance between hotkeys. 

-In Designer, while in move context, you can simply ctrl-drag an object to clone it to that place. That's so much more delightful to do than copypasting/pasting in place/duplicating, then dragging into place. The swiftness of it scales really well when needing multiple clones in different places, too, which is often. 

-In illustrator, i'm used to selecting 2 objects and pressing ctrl+7 to make one clip the other, ctrl+alt+7 to release. This is alright, but you must also remember to select the objects, either on canvas or the tiny object selection icons on the layers, and not just the layers they're embedded in, or you'll get an angry warning, despite in the case of the selected layers there is sufficient context for the action to act on. Classic 90s paradigm clunk.
In Designer? I just drag the layer on top of the intended parent layer (as opposed to between, for ordering). Drag it outside to release. So easy. 

It's not all a dance on rose petals, of course. 
I do find the pencil autocomplete option way too stingy with its threshold to be useful in everyday situations. I suspect this is a case where the feature "feels neat" from a programmers' perspective (it's sort of fun to play with outside end user context), but in practice it just doesn't achieve what a painter/illustrator wants: quick gestures should close without needing to slow down to match the two ends best you can for it to trigger. In the end, the result tends to look unnatural, and it makes you spend time instead of saving time either redoing the stroke a lot, or trying to fix it after the fact. Eventually you simply start avoiding the feature. I see this has been a common complaint, too - that the threshold should be user settable, and i would also suggest the default tolerance should be much higher. 

Since i can understand the urgent want for a solution to that, i can also understand the frustration when several years old quirks haven't been addressed. 


The following is not necessarily connected to the complaint in the original post, but it's just my own current personal view on whether or not affinity might be for someone with past experience in adobe/quark/etc:
If one wants Affinity suite to just be Adobe CC flagships but without the subscription model (or gen ai, or terms and conditions, or whatever reason you're switching boats), you're more likely to be disappointed. It's not magically going to do all the things the competitor does, and it's not going to do them exactly the same way. 

But if one is open to the things it actually does better, or if one keeps an open mind/flexible approach to exploring new workflows, you might find the benefits outweigh the caveats - depending on your needs, of course. I don't agree it's "low quality for a low price", a lot of things feel fresh, well made, time saving, more comfortable, user oriented. It really depends on what you need it to do the most at this junction. And wether or not you're ok with hoping for the future for the things you want it to do but currently doesn't. 


Post script:
It's also not like there aren't bugs or missing essentials in adobe tools that have remained unresolved for decades. 
Some off the top of my head:
-if you change the dimensions of a .bmp or replace it with new dimensions in explorer/an external tool, when photoshop asks to refresh it doesn't read the modified header. The pixel throughput will be corrupted. 
-It's 2024 and unless they changed it since i last used it, ps still doesn't support layers for indexed mode graphics and still doesn't have a usable indexed mode file palette editor. 
-Save for web and export dialogs were basically written once and don't scale well for modern file sizes. They can chew forever, eat 32 gigs of ram, and crash, in sufficiently demanding conditions. 
-Premiere is reputedly crash prone compared to competitors.

Edited June 24, 2024 by FrankenGraphics

[PaoloT]

On 6/22/2024 at 4:31 PM, bbrother said:

Ash, You have failed.

Looks like the smartest thing to say to someone who just earned one billion overnight.

 

[Frozen Death Knight]

49 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

Looks like the smartest thing to say to someone who just earned one billion overnight.

 

Indeed. It's one thing to criticise the software, but to say that he has failed after making Affinity a well known and respected brand as the top alternative to Adobe on the image editing front is a bit tone deaf, especially now when he is basically set for life including his family for future generations. Many would kill for that success.

[bbrother]

14 minutes ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

but to say that he has failed after making Affinity a well known and respected brand as the top alternative to Adobe on the image editing front is a bit tone deaf

Sometimes I wonder how people can deceive themselves like that.

[Frozen Death Knight]

5 minutes ago, bbrother said:

Sometimes I wonder how people can deceive themselves like that.

Well, which alternate brand that isn't Adobe are you planning on moving on to, you who know everything? 

[Pšenda]

On 6/19/2024 at 10:12 AM, Patrick Connor said:

It's not whining, it's feedback.

I can't agree with you. By meaningful feedback I understand constructive criticism, comments, pointing out shortcomings and mistakes, not constant repetition of the same thing over and over without any benefit.

[bbrother]

2 hours ago, PaoloT said:

Looks like the smartest thing to say to someone who just earned one billion overnight.

If you had thoroughly researched the subject of the acquisition and had at least a slight idea about Serif's sales results, you would not have written such absurdities.

-----------------

@loukash take a break for a while. To make it clear to you, when I wrote that Ash failed, it was my personal opinion and the context was the quality of the software nothing else. I don't care if they broke the bank by selling the company. It's not my business. I'm not a jealous person. 

What you scribble in your comments has nothing to do with what I'm writing about.

[Dan C]

8 minutes ago, bbrother said:

@loukash take a break for a while.

It is not for our users to police who can, or can't post here on the Affinity Forums - or to decide how often other users can post.

This user has as much of a right as yourself to post, provided the guidelines are being followed.

I have previously covered this in the below post and I'd recommend familiarising yourself with my wording there:

Please use the 'Ignore' function of the Forums if you don't wish to see certain users posts.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in telling someone else to "take a break" after making a whole thread about basically breaking off from using the software and still being here argumenting about it two weeks later?

[wonderings]

11 minutes ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony of telling someone else to "take a break" after making a whole thread about basically breaking off from using the software and still being here argumenting about it two weeks later?

That is how people work online now it seems. Make a big thing about quitting, saying goodbye then hanging around for the reaction and then taking part in the reaction. A lot of it is just a craving for attention.