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Um... I'm honestly not quite sure what you're getting at. Page layout used to be done manually, so therefore Designer shouldn't have linked text boxes?

No, what I mean is I believe page layout work should be done with a page layout app, not some bloated app that tries to include page layout, graphics creation, & whatever other functions might be needed to complete some project, start to finish.

 

There is no end to that kind of functions list. A user's work might include creating web pages, 2D or 3D animations, product mockups, UI design, print or video ads, brochures, technical manuals, whatever. Each of these things requires a different set of features, so if Designer was to include a page layout feature like linked text, why should it not indexes, ToC, HTML, 3D rendering, animation frames, tweening, or any & every other feature needed for that kind of work?

 

So what makes text linking special? Like all the other features, some users need it, others never will. Some need just the basics, others the most advanced, state of the art, pro level features available. Designer could never provide all that, even if it cost ten times as much & they took ten years to develop it.

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So what makes text linking special? Like all the other features, some users need it, others never will.

 

The same could be said of bullets and numbering, but Dave Harris has stated that once that has been added to Publisher because it's needed there, it will be added to the other apps, too. So why is the feature being treated as a special case?

 

Manual creation of a bulleted list is pretty straightforward. Manually flowing text from one frame to another is tedious enough when you're setting it up initially, but if you subsequently have to reflow the text because you've added or removed something then it's likely to become a bit of a nightmare.

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if you subsequently have to reflow the text because you've added or removed something then it's likely to become a bit of a nightmare.

That is why you need page layout app for it. If you make 2-page brochure text flow is no problem and actually having separate blocks may help design as text does not jump to other blocks when adjusting text blocks.

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The same could be said of bullets and numbering, but Dave Harris has stated that once that has been added to Publisher because it's needed there, it will be added to the other apps, too. So why is the feature being treated as a special case?

It is of course subjective, but to use KipV's test from the other topic, because bullets & numbering are very useful even for short form documents.

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That is why you need page layout app for it. If you make 2-page brochure text flow is no problem and actually having separate blocks may help design as text does not jump to other blocks when adjusting text blocks.

That is an incredibly silly argument and would only possibly be true if the designer was in control of the text and not the client and was too lazy to edit.

 

No, the reason is for planned feature disparity.

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Your point is well taken, but in my line of work, page layout is "professional graphic design." I certainly don't expect to do a 48-page magazine in Designer, but I did hope it'd be suitable for designing a single-page magazine ad. Linked text boxes are crucial there.

 

If the Designer tagline was "professional illustration software," I'd expect only rudimentary text tools, sure.

I haven't come across an example of a single page layout that would require text linking yet. I do a ton of one page mailers and handouts but I can't think of a single time this feature would come into play. The main use of this feature is when you go from column to column or page to page which isn't required hardly ever in one page docs. The onus is on those who say they need this feature to show examples of one page documents where text linking AND page graphics are required in the same file. Someone said that you would need this feature for making a bus schedule but due to the lack of graphics such a design would be better done in a layout tool like InDesign that has features like tables. 

 

I agree with R C-R that adding features like text linking becomes a slippery slope because then people will use that feature to justify every other tool in the world. I think the name is a bit confusing to some people since the word "Designer" is a bit ambiguous where the scope of the software is not. It makes more sense to focus on related tools like 3D illustration (perhaps in a separate persona) rather then tools for advanced layout or multimedia, etc.

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I haven't come across an example of a single page layout that would require text linking yet. I do a ton of one page mailers and handouts but I can't think of a single time this feature would come into play.

...

The onus is on those who say they need this feature to show examples of one page documents where text linking AND page graphics are required in the same file.

...

 

I cannot imagine a one-page flier needing it either. So? I also try to never show client work on a public site, so examples are sort of hard to come by on my part. I have to rework them so as not to be recognizable as to company or product.

 

There are times when using a page layout software makes perfect sense for low page-count multi-page documents. But there are also times when it doesn't make sense from a designer's POV.

 

I often make brochures from 8-32 pages for various companies (mainly electronic and drug companies). Without going back through the years and actually physically tallying up whether I did X percentage in a layout application and Y percentage in a vector design application, I would reckon it is a 70-30 split respectively.

 

Of those done in a vector design application, I think each one has linked text boxes in whole or in part. So the question is why did I chose one type of application over the other when I obviously have more than a few of each type from which to choose?

 

There are times when being able to ad hoc the relative sizing of elements where it simply makes sense to do so in a vector design application. It is a visual process, not a linear one. Text and illustration sizing changes are far faster in a design application than in a layout application.

 

Being "forced" into using a layout application for those brochures would have increased my time and/or effort. That time is not always recoverable in billing hours a bid is based upon. In order to make decent money means beating the bid time.

 

Now, I fully expect the naysayers to shoot down the above. That's fine. Ultimately it is Serif's call and all this positioning and bluster is really just a table discussion as it doesn't affect anything Serif is going to choose to do.

 

Mike

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"I cannot imagine a one-page flier needing it either. So?"

This adds features that get in the way of the app's core functions. See most Adobe apps for examples of this. I really have an open mind but I just haven't seen a use case of this workflow being put into practice which makes me think that such workflow doesn't exist.

 

"There are times when being able to ad hoc the relative sizing of elements where it simply makes sense to do so in a vector design application. It is a visual process, not a linear one. Text and illustration sizing changes are far faster in a design application than in a layout application." 

You can resize objects in a layout program too. I don't notice any speed difference. They both have a transform panel if needed etc.

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I'm sorry, but you are not correct in writing that changing say headings on a page is as quick in a layout application as in a design application.

 

With one, you are either altering frame sizes, clicking in the text and using keyboard shortcuts to increase/decrease font sizes, moving said text boxes, and/or altering the styles that control those headings versus grabbing a control handle and sizing visually in relation to the other items on the page. One is a controlled experience that has an impact on time that is greater than the time impact doing so by the seat of the pants to suite the eye. Transform panels have little to do with it.

 

But back to the linking of text boxes. The text boxes on this one page are linked--as are the other 14 internal pages. The text and graphics were in a state of flux during the entire process. Not having the flow of text would have meant a lot of cutting and pasting into new frames as others were being moved and/or deleted. Having text pull/push made the process easier.

 

post-255-0-78675600-1477162048_thumb.png

 

I have done hundreds of brochures over the years of a 16-page count or less. I have done them both in layout and vector design software. I pretty much understand the ramifications of using either as regards a time impact and the time limitations put forth of product launches, ad deadlines, etc.

 

I'm pretty done with this conversation. It has zero value as Serif is simply going to do what they have already decided.

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I'm sorry, but you are not correct in writing that changing say headings on a page is as quick in a layout application as in a design application.

There is no way to know if this will be true for Affinity Publisher until we see it.

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From your example it looks like the first column of text is what is linked? It's a little hard to tell since it is blurred out but it looks like column one contains a topic with a bullet list in the middle of the column and the story is then continued after the list. What I don't see is illustration work which makes me question why a illustration tool would even be need in this instance. As far as scaling goes why not just use character and paragraph styles? The text tools from InDesign are far greater then the tools available in Illustrator or FreeHand. For an example here is a layout I did a few years ago from a book. 

 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/354025220684087385/

 

InDesign let me do drop caps, choose how many lines or words would apply to the drop cap, let me capitalize the first sentence or  capitalize multiple lines, apply automatic page numbers. These are all things that I don't think illustration tools can do with text (at least as far as the last time I tried it.) I used FreeHand for putting a booklet together once (it was about 20 pages or so) and it worked but once I learned InDesign I didn't see a reason to return for this type of work. InDesign has been my sole choice even for one page mailers. I could see using a program like Photo for simple layouts though. It would have been easy to do my one page design in Photo so I could edit the photo and do the layout at the same time. Once Serif lets me edit Artboards like I can do with Designer I may consider doing the whole one page design in Photo. Staying all in the same app was a nice experience for simple layout.

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I'm sorry, but you are not correct in writing that changing say headings on a page is as quick in a layout application as in a design application.

 

With one, you are either altering frame sizes, clicking in the text and using keyboard shortcuts to increase/decrease font sizes, moving said text boxes, and/or altering the styles that control those headings versus grabbing a control handle and sizing visually in relation to the other items on the page. One is a controlled experience that has an impact on time that is greater than the time impact doing so by the seat of the pants to suite the eye. Transform panels have little to do with it.

 

Now I'm not sure which app you think is which. Both Designer and Publisher will have handles to resize objects. Both will have text styles, text toolbars etc.

 

If you only have Designer, then making multi-page documents is not going to be ideal for you. If you have both Designer and Publisher, then I think it will be a lot better than past experience with other apps might lead you to expect. They will share a common file format. It's not like having to commit your document to a design application when you'd sometimes rather edit it in a layout application. It won't be like having Illustrator and InDesign and having to pick which one is best for each project.

 

At worst, you'll be able to switch the same document between Publisher and Designer. A lot of the time that won't even be necessary; they will usually be able to edit each other's objects at least to a degree. For example, you will need Publisher to create links between text frames, but Designer will then be able to resize them and type content into them and format them, and the text will reflow between frames just as it would in Publisher.

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I think the problem here is that a lot of people are having trouble understanding how this workflow works since is it forces them to  imagine the way software they haven't used works. This one file format solution can really blow Adobe out of the water. I was reading an InDesign book from about seven years ago that was talking about how Adobe was planning on doing something similar but they never accomplished it. Serif's main goal shouldn't be to merely to catch up to Adobe it should be to surpass them (at least in some areas.)

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All of which highlights an absurdity. If one can create linked text boxes in Publisher and then edit text in AD and have it flow through the text boxes, then the capability ought to be included in AD once it is in APub.

 

But then, I suppose one could just add flowing text boxes from an APub document to AD's assets and drag them onto the page. I suspect that if this works there will be documents on the forum from which to grab those linked text boxes.

 

I could care less what Serif decides to do in the end concerning this issue. It's y'alls call after all. But it isn't because it is needed or not. It is simply planned feature disparity.

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I think the problem here is that a lot of people are having trouble understanding how this workflow works since is it forces them to  imagine the way software they haven't used works. This one file format solution can really blow Adobe out of the water. I was reading an InDesign book from about seven years ago that was talking about how Adobe was planning on doing something similar but they never accomplished it. Serif's main goal shouldn't be to merely to catch up to Adobe it should be to surpass them (at least in some areas.)

The one file format will not blow Adobe out of the water.

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1. 

Affinity has tools for the use of long text. So it does not make sense that there will be no needed professional tools for optical margin alignment and “linking text boxes”.
 
2.
Some users don’t have the imagination why linked text boxes could be needed. Serif gave us an example (in their new workbook):
27208135bz.jpg

Curious, Serif used Affinity Designer to create more than one text column.
 
3.
With which results?
27208489sz.jpg
 
If Serif had integrated the needed professional tools, typographic errors could have been avoided.
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Some users don’t have the imagination why linked text boxes could be needed. Serif gave us an example (in their new workbook):

27208135bz.jpg

Curious, Serif used Affinity Designer to create more than one text column.

 

No, Serif used PagePlus X9 to create that workbook. :)

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On 23. Oktober 2016 at 2:12 PM, Alfred said:

No, Serif used PagePlus X9 to create that workbook. :)

 

Yes, true. But the snapshot is from their AD file that comes with their workbook!  :rolleyes:

 

Are you the one that did not purchase it?  ;) 

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No there isn't. This feature will be available in Publisher, the layout app coming later this year. You have to create multiple text boxes to continue your text.

 

It would be better if both versions, Mac and Win come out in same time.

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Some users don’t have the imagination why linked text boxes could be needed.

It isn't a lack of imagination; it is that some of us imagine it is something more efficiently & professionally done in a page layout app that includes a wider assortment of tools & features specifically designed for that kind of work.

 

A vector creation app like Affinity Designer would not be my first choice for this kind of work, just as Affinity Photo or a word processor would not be my first choice for creating vector objects, even though both include a limited selection of tools that can be used for that purpose.

 

The one file format approach of the Affinity suite of apps could make this a much more seamless & efficient way to work than previously possible, but obviously this isn't going to happen until the suite has been filled out with Publisher & eventually the DAM app.

 

I understand why some users don't want to wait for that & want to see the existing apps include linked text boxes (among many other requested features), but realistically, if they did that they would be creating competition for the new apps even before they were fully developed & released. That would be a foolish thing for any company that wants to survive in a competitive market to do. I am reasonably certain they are not that foolish.

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At the moment Designer gets used for projects where Publisher would be better, because Publisher doesn't exist yet. That's not an argument for adding Publisher features to Designer.

Well, it is an argument for that ... just not a very good one.  :ph34r:  :lol:

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