A sigh from an experienced but tired forum user – and a guide for new users.

[Barry Newman]

I have observed from the sidelines how a very small percentage (single digit well below 1%) of Affinity's customers dominate this forum and feel compelled to comment on all new suggestions. I am amazed at how few people are involved and how much they dominate. I miss the functionality from other forums where you can see a member list and sort by the number of posts. Statistics on how few percentages actually fill this forum with their perspective on everything would be interesting. From my experienced point of view, this is not a community here, but a highly limited group of primarily men. A fan club. It is highly suspicious that so few spend so much time here; it's as if they are always here and not out in the world or inside Affinity creating. I strongly agree with those who believe Canva should establish a new forum, start afresh, and ensure that new customers and customers from other social platforms can participate.

On top of that, countless other issues arise, so here is some help for new users to navigate the artificial reality in here.

Online Disinhibition Effect
When people communicate online, they often behave differently than in real life. This tendency, known as the "online disinhibition effect," can lead to more aggressive or dominant behavior. The dominant users may feel freer to express their opinions and opposition without worrying about consequences.

Echo Chamber Effect
A forum dominated by a small group of users can create an "echo chamber," where the same opinions and viewpoints are repeated and reinforced. New ideas or criticism may be met with resistance because they threaten the established consensus within the group.

Social Identity Theory
These users may see themselves as protectors of the forum's "identity." According to social identity theory, groups can develop a strong internal solidarity and resistance to outsiders, which may explain their reluctance to accept input from new users.

Gamification and Status Seeking
Some users may be more interested in gaining high status in the forum through the number of posts and likes rather than creating graphics. The forum's structure may reward activity over quality, attracting those seeking recognition and influence.

Resistance to Change
Many people are naturally resistant to change, especially when they feel their status or position is threatened. The dominant users may resist new ideas or technologies because they feel comfortable with the current state and fear losing their influence.

Personally, I am infinitely tired of seeing the same people comment with the same tendencies, claims, and reactions. We already know what you stand for and against after thousands of posts, so let others have a chance and listen. We all use graphic programs in various ways and have different or greater needs.

My biggest and most genuine concern is that Serif has used the smallest group of customers as input for all development. You can hardly make a bigger mistake than that.

[John Rostron]

Whilst I agree that there are a relatively small number of users of this forum who have a very large number of posts, I disagree that they 'dominate' the forum. In no way are they imposing their views on others. Instead they are contributing free help and advice to less experienced users. 

John

[Return]

@Barry Newman But that is all you contribute,not?

Blaming those that do contribute for your lack of whatever it is called.(fill in the blanks)

 

 

[PaulEC]

Most of the people who make a large number of posts here have been members for a long time, and freely give their time and expertise to help others. Unlike a few other people who post here, who do nothing but try to find fault and criticize everything, including other forum members. I know which group I consider to be most useful to the forums and to other users!

[fde101]

5 hours ago, Barry Newman said:

I am infinitely tired of seeing the same people comment with the same tendencies, claims, and reactions.

Some of us are just as tired of having lots of users repeatedly post the same suggestions and ask the same questions and seemingly expect different responses.

Some have not learned to search (this is bothersome), some blatantly ignore existing threads they already know about and post new ones, or even worse post new ones referencing existing ones in the same place in a misguided attempt to "vote" for something that has clearly already been requested (this is extremely annoying), and some honestly can't find existing content in spite of trying (this doesn't bother me too much), but regardless of how it happens, we keep answering the same questions over and over again, so why would our answers to those questions change?

 

5 hours ago, Barry Newman said:

let others have a chance and listen.

No one is preventing "others" from posting opposing ideas.  We have no control over whether or not they actually do.

[Patrick Connor]

49 minutes ago, fde101 said:

No one is preventing "others" from posting opposing ideas.

Ok, but the content of Mr Newman's post addresses that point in detail.

[Return]

Perhaps Mr Newman should have read more topics and reading between the lines is a must here, to be aware that many of those so called diehards also point out the flaws and discrepancies and what they want to see could be better or different in the affinities to find no actual response.
I think this is the crux here, that those diehards are also fed up with the slow development and the lack of acknowledgement that there are some(many) issues with the implementation of things and that they are also tired to even point them out anymore, seeing those one time users coming in to ask the same old, same old questions(RTFM) that seem to be just hurdles that Serif brushes of as "by design" and this is never going to change because it would mean Serif has to rewrite the core codebase, yet again, that seems just to much to ask for. 
 

[Return]

[bures]

Questions on the same topics are very often repeated in the forum. This should be an important signal to developers that something is wrong with the application and should be improved.

[Return]

2 minutes ago, bures said:

Questions on the same topics are very often repeated in the forum. This should be an important signal to developers that something is wrong with the application and should be improved.

Or at least there's something wrong with the overall documentation.
And the forumsoftware isn't much help because the search function doesn't work for somebody to find the answers in a normal way.
Try for instance "AI" and you'll get zero results,  though there are dozens(161 today) of topics with AI in the title or threads itself.
I still advocate for a wikisite, it is more suitable for the task as opposed to some FAQ page that doesn't answer the most commonly asked questions about the usage of the affinities but only about installation, accounts and known issues.
 

[Patrick Connor]

22 minutes ago, Return said:

Try for instance "AI" and you'll get zero results,  though there are dozens(161 today)

Yes I set the minimum word length to 3 letters, and it doesn't help for the "AI" case, sorry. Setting it to 2 makes searching slow

[bbrother]

41 minutes ago, bures said:

This should be an important signal to developers that something is wrong with the application and should be improved.

There is no more obvious signal that there is a problem, as the statistics itself in the bug tracking system.
I am curious what the developers think, looking at these statistics when they log in to the system.

[Return]

17 minutes ago, bbrother said:

bug tracking system

Those are only reported bugs that influence the code to not work correctly but doesn't say anything about UX issues.

 

[Twolane]

Don't disparage the poor elephant in the room. Elephants have enough problems in their natural environment. 🐘

I come to ask a question and get an answer, no matter how silly my question might seem to moi. Since what I'm looking for isn't all that technical, I get that answer almost immediately, usually by the same person. (Thanks, Walt.)

However, I do find the search function rather, umm, how shall I put it? Abstruse? Although, I can usually find what I'm looking for after a number of tries.

In other words, keep on keeping on. Oh, and, when will version 5 be out? Thanks. 😇

[Alfred]

50 minutes ago, Return said:

Those are only reported bugs that influence the code to not work correctly but doesn't say anything about UX issues.

That would be true if it were literally just a bug-tracking system, but it’s quite clear that ‘improvement’ issues are also tracked.

[Return]

2 minutes ago, Alfred said:

but it’s quite clear that ‘improvement’ issues

Uhm, I can't see it but would like to hear about it.

 

[Alfred]

Forum search for logged improvement

[walt.farrell]

Just now, Return said:

Uhm, I can't see it but would like to hear about it.

 

Try a search like this one: https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/search/&q=APL-&search_and_or=and

The APL-nnn tags are for PLanning purposes, e.g. improvement requests, from what I've observed. As this is a search of text within posts, not a tag search, it will only find a small subset of the tagged topics/posts. The Serif staff will sometimes create one of these for an improvement they especially agree with, rather than asking the reporter to create a request in Feedback.

[William Overington]

From my perspective, if someone is stuck and wants and needs the answer to a specific question then if someone else is able and willing to provide that answer and generously provides it free then that is good.

William

 

[Return]

I had a sentence in my previous post that stated that you shouldn't mention the features that should have been implemented in the first incarnation of the affinities or at least in the version1 cycle.
I deleted it to find out what you would come up with and it is just as I expected, just the features that are present in other programs for decades but Serif didn't think of implementing them yet? but only when users where asking and pointing them out it was developed? great strategy,not.
And might I say they are not even up to par, far from it, it is missing so many things that would have made it a great suite by now after 10 years of development.
Still I don't see it.
I hope Canva is willing to throw a big bundle at it to make up for the lost time.

[fde101]

23 minutes ago, Return said:

just the features that are present in other programs for decades but Serif didn't think of implementing them yet?

• They may have had other priorities that took up the time they would have needed to spend on implementing, documenting and testing those features.
• The features may not have fit well with the architecture of the software they are trying to develop.
• They may have considered the features outdated or had other ideas about how to accomplish things.
• They might consider them misfeatures that the other programs have not benefited from either...  or they may simply not like those features.

 

36 minutes ago, Return said:

only when users where asking and pointing them out

...and in so doing helping Serif to better understand the current requirements and workflows of their users, many of which are likely to have changed since the older software that you are referencing has been developed - the market has changed, technology has changed, the way we work has changed, so the requirements that modern applications have is likely to have also changed.

[Return]

We all know the tools and functions that are in many, if not all, graphic programs from open source to the very expensive ones.
Anybody working with graphic design programs will see within the trial period what is lacking and why one needs to resort to other programs.
And with 30 years in software development and with the internet at hand to see what the competition is coming up with, it is no brainer what the user wants.
In the end the user pays the bills or will leave if you cannot deliver, no matter the hyped marketing.





 

[debraspicher]

Consider as well, Serif has designed their apps (and help) in such a way that it can make understanding how certain functions are meant to work a merry-go-round of obstacles. What is more important for a pragmatist is to know which solution actually applies to their use case, and then offering to empower them to create that solution. (This is how all designers work at heart really...)

Because Serif does things "Serif's way", this means funneling users to the forums for seemingly simple issues so they can discover the neurosis themselves... they should search, but I can personally attest, that's not the end all/be all to completely alleviating all concerns around certain functionality and how it will (and should ideally) apply to a particular use case. The manual can do this job, but there's too many oddities/nauances in various workflows, for example, to make it simple to achieve professional output. We have members who pop up with elaborate solutions or suggestions of their own because output can be rather difficult, ie trial and error.

Like others, I'm not necessarily interested in being bombarded with the same cookie cutter explanations and having to reexplain my own workflow to "veteran" members who are complete strangers to me. (I'm a "veteran" user of forums, so this is something I can just ignore as a quirk of the internet). We may all be at a loss, but what is not helpful is clearly bored people posting opinions without allowing room for others to give oxygen to their own feedback regarding jobs that may have very specific requirements (and it's nothing personal).

To add to OP's insight, social media behavior is further encouraged by things like karma farming: the farming of reactions scores and reputation points. Which I can tell you as a veteran community poster (of all varieties), encourages members to post similar kinds of responses. Even if the solution doesn't even exist (unbeknownst to all), they post their opinion on something random, so as to offer an unhelpful biased opinion as "guided" behavior to that member and others around them. This is actually what I think the OP meant by "dominating" behavior, but what they maybe missed explaining is that this behavior is learned behavior from that dopamine hit and the behavior of other members... not necessarily intentional. This behavior is also examined when "solutions" are offered by way of watered down opinions that can extend for pages when it is clear who is trying to grab the most reactions... before it's become very obvious to that OP, who may be a very serious customer, that these users aren't remotely familiar with their work environment or even their requirements... this is not customer service, this is a useless timesink.

I don't care about this enough like the OP to make a post or anything or "vent". But I appreciate the OP in giving me an opportunity to point this out to staff/management, because my observation has been that it forces users (old and new) to become a beta tester even if the software isn't in beta. It also gives the unhealthy impression of a solid userbase... yes, it will remain very attached, but also small... I do not like that the company has forced this format of utilizing the forums as the main hub for learning and dealing with their program's "special problems". And this is why more professionals don't increasingly utilize the forums, and maybe even the applications, to the same extent others might as that is NOT efficient. Any user who is limited in time can't afford the energy spent dealing with the personality conflicts or other social media behavior-related nuances that often occur in environments where the terminally online inhabit (I think this is the biggest deterrent for OP...) Not trying to be unkind, just being honest. These people exist and they get little hits from people tagging their posts even when it contains unhelpful and condescending remarks just to raise their scores. It drives away goodwill from more serious demographics and as the OP mentions, this small minority inevitably sinks in enough energy that it shapes the behavior of those around them... partially due to reaction scores, partially due to nature of human's tendency to seek validation (edit: and people not really understanding it is learned behavior).

Anyway, hardened professionals are not interested in becoming beta members or digging into all this for a meager chance to make a roll at the social media carousel hoping the divine Gods at Serif will answer some support request with authority and expediency. Current members are aware of their bad chances, but new members feel slighted to be met with the above mentioned behavior and so there's an entire demographic whose needs are not even made known or aware because they're turned off by the Reddit-esk behavior of the forums. Most people who use the programs I'm sure are sincere and just simply want to get a job done, but Serif has increasingly made the programs less accessible with unfixed bugs, odd workflows and broken UX so that the expectations are so "not typical" that they're strained for solutions even with adequate time spent in search and help. This is an opinion more than an observation, but there's plenty of developer-minded people on the forums that are too keen to deal with this (myself too to an extent), but it's not adequate for the goals these programs aim for... such as "accessibility for all", etc.

TLDR, because your time is valuable: The OP is a side effect of the ratwheel that has been made from years of unaddressed feedback and member's stifled frustrations... and then there's internet culture.... which Serif can do nothing about perhaps except maybe close the forums and hide underneath a desk. The forums should be last resort in most cases, ideally... so the fact members have to "know" forum etiquette, and be understanding of other user's personality quirks, to get realistic help is kind of ridiculous.

[PaoloT]

In any case, I don't find the search function all that bad. It allows as much filtering as you want. The great success of the Affinity suite has made the resulting pages full of redundant messages, and this doesn't play in favor of those who are not very open to the huge complexity of the world.

Paolo

 

[debraspicher]

2 hours ago, PaoloT said:

In any case, I don't find the search function all that bad. It allows as much filtering as you want. The great success of the Affinity suite has made the resulting pages full of redundant messages, and this doesn't play in favor of those who are not very open to the huge complexity of the world.

Paolo

I agree. I will say modern solutions in software haven't ignored this behavior and have adapted to make it easier to at least onboard customers so that they can use products more effectively. It's up to Serif to adapt to this customer, not the other way around. Just as in the field we must adapt to our clients, those who compete and handle these difficulties with the most grace will survive long-term. Canva seems to already have this mindset ingrained, at the very least. Another thing I'd add is the way the forum is being used (or misused) is best treated as a general indicator of changing customer behavior, not just simply someone being a "bad user" or breaking the rule of "RTFM".  The latter attitude is not helpful and focuses on blame-shifting, whereas the former is instructive of segments of the population that desire to get into the product more effectively and quickly, ideally as soon as legitimately possible. Some people may not "like" this aspect of dealing with the customer, but they also help pay the bills so it is worth trying to onboard them properly before they even think of contacting the forums where they may be judged (whether wrong or right). Managing this with a suite that is as complex as Affinity is difficult, but past comments and goodwill made by other customer-centric members have made it clear this is feasible if they can implement the input that's been given across the board. Increasingly more applications are able to do this more effectively without impacting the efficiency and efficacy of their programs too much.

Edit: Probably off-topic