Variable Font Support

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

17 minutes ago, R C-R said:

OK, but what other iPad app has that feature? That's why I was asking what that has to do with it.

Don’t pretend to be funny - why should that be another app on the iPad that has this function??

Serif as a company (clever people) is making so many other functionality on iPad that’s not present on another app, so, Serif have the knowledge to add this pretty easy if they want, but they refuse…

[R C-R]

54 minutes ago, AffinityMakesMeWonder said:

Don’t pretend to be funny - why should that be another app on the iPad that has this function??

I'm not being funny. My point is simply that if no other iPad app has this feature, it doesn't matter what any desktop app(s) have it, or for how long. IMO, it isn't a valid comparison.

And as for them 'refusing' to implement it, it is most likely that with so many other features for both the desktop & iPad apps, they just have not (yet) had the time to thoroughly develop & debug it. There are not an unlimited number of things they can work on at any given time, so like most other developers they pick & choose among the ones they think will benefit the greatest number of users to focus on.

[kenmcd]

On 5/14/2024 at 6:19 AM, Ash said:

The newly released 2.5.0.2449 includes UI on the context toolbar to optionally allow you to see all the axes of a Variable Font, and not just the ones that the axes that the font designer thinks should be shown.

Some suggestions...

Lock Optical Size to Point Size - where is it?
This is one of the greatest advantages of variable fonts.
Browsers now do this automatically.
AFAIK this is working in Chrome, Edge, Firefox, etc. (maybe they have fixed Safari in Sonoma).
Huge advantage to make better topography that much easier.

The axes interface should have a button/toggle on the Optical Size axis.
And if the lock is enabled the opsz axis should be grayed-out.
This lock feature should not be buried in Preferences (like in InDesign).
It should be front and center in this interface.
Placed such as the Lock image/toggle/button in the image below.

Perhaps also add a Preferences setting to default this to be On or Off.

Reset Axis to Default
There should be an easy way to reset axes to the default.
A Reset All Axes button at the top.
And individual Reset Axis buttons for each single axis.
Like the circular arrows below.
Grayed-out if the axis is already at the default (like the lower ones).
Or brighter if an axis (or axes) has been changed (like the top one).

The Show Hidden Axes should be below, and create a break between the beginner and Advanced axes listed.
Maybe add the word (Advanced) to warn less knowledgeable users.
(Or perhaps a sign that says "you have to be this tall" to use these axes.)

Like this:

 

[R C-R]

16 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Reset Axis to Default
There should be an easy way to reset axes to the default.
A Reset All Axes button at the top.
And individual Reset Axis buttons for each single axis.
Like the circular arrows below.
Grayed-out if the axis is already at the default (like the lower ones).
Or brighter if an axis (or axes) has been changed (like the top one).

If I understand this correctly, by defaults you mean the various pre-defined axis instances (the "Font Style" items in the Context toolbar like Regular, Black, Bold, etc.), right?

If so, I think it would be useful if the name of the original Font Style appeared in the Font Variation Settings popup whenever an axis was changed from its default for that instance. This is so that, since at that time the Font Style in the Context toolbar is blank (because it is no longer the original) we would know what the reset would be.

A less desirable alternative would be to still show the original Font Style name in the Context toolbar but with an asterisk or star or some such icon to show it's been modified.

Does that make sense?

[garrettm30]

21 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Lock Optical Size to Point Size - where is it?
This is one of the greatest advantages of variable fonts.
Browsers now do this automatically.

Ah, yes, that would be quite welcome.

In case anyone wants a primer on optical size in variable fonts, I found this article helpful (disclaimer: I know nothing else about this website):

https://pixelambacht.nl/2021/optical-size-hidden-superpower/

[Alfred]

21 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Huge advantage to make better topography that much easier.

It puts better typography on the map, too!

[000]

This dynamic font does not work: https://indestructibletype.com/Gnomon.html

[kenmcd]

6 hours ago, R C-R said:

If I understand this correctly, by defaults you mean the various pre-defined axis instances (the "Font Style" items in the Context toolbar like Regular, Black, Bold, etc.), right?

If so, I think it would be useful if the name of the original Font Style appeared in the Font Variation Settings popup whenever an axis was changed from its default for that instance. This is so that, since at that time the Font Style in the Context toolbar is blank (because it is no longer the original) we would know what the reset would be.

A less desirable alternative would be to still show the original Font Style name in the Context toolbar but with an asterisk or star or some such icon to show it's been modified.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense - but a bit differently.
But I was going to see how they reacted to the above before asking about adding the STAT table support - which is the easiest way to select variations.
But since you brought it up...

The Axis Default above is not a Named Instance (but may be the same setting),
it is a setting in the fvar table which has the Min, Max, and Default for each axis.
Those are actually numbers, but they may correspond to a particular common setting - such as Bold=700.
Each axis is defined with this Min, Max, and Default.

Named Instances are also in the fvar table, but they can have multiple axis settings in each instance - Bold Weight (700), Condensed Width (70), Slant -5, etc. - and any number in between. You are used to these being familiar names such as "Condensed Bold", but they can be "FattyFatt" or whatever.

Each axis can also have defined Axis Instances (in the STAT table).
So for example in Roboto Flex the Width axis has nine Axis Instances.
SuperCondensed=25
UltraCondensed=50
ExtraCondensed=62.5
Condensed=75
SemiCondensed=87.5
(Normal)=100
SemiExpanded=112.5
Expanded=125
ExtraExpanded=150

And for the Weight axis it has nine Axis Instances
Thin=100
ExtraLight=200
Light=300
(Regular)=400
Medium=500
SemiBold=600
Bold=700
ExtraBold=800
Black=900

And for the Optical Size axis it has 19 Axis Instances
"8pt"=8
"9pt"=9
"10pt"=10
"11pt"=11
"12pt"=12
"(14pt)"=14
"16pt"=16
"17pt"=17
"18pt"=18
"20pt"=20
"24pt"=24
"28pt"=28
"36pt"=36
"48pt"=48
"60pt"=60
"72pt"=72
"96pt"=96
"120pt"=120
"144pt"=144

And if you add just two Slant Axis Instances you get:
19 opsz × 9 wght × 9 wdth × 2 slnt = 3,078 named instances or static fonts

Google Fonts limits the number to named Instances (and usually no Optical Size).
Roboto Flex only has 20 named instances.
So how to get to all these other 3,000+ potential instances in an easy way?
Drop-down selectors to select by Axis Instance.

You can see this in action on the Samsa Variable Font Inspector web page.
https://lorp.github.io/samsa/src/samsa-gui.html

This is for Roboto Flex.

 

Playfair is another example.
The version from Google Fonts has a limited number of Named Instances, only eight!
The version directly from the font developer has 252 Named Instances in each font.
12 opsz × 7 wght × 3 wdth = 252 Roman
12 opsz × 7 wght × 3 wdth = 252 Italic    
252 Roman + 252 Italic = 504 named instances or static fonts
In the repo there are actually 504 static fonts!
Think of 504 instances or static styles in the font menu.
OR....
With a STAT interface - Three drop-down selectors and an Italic button

So if we added a drop-down to the interface it may look like this.
Note: I just pasted-in examples which are obviously not matching the settings.
This is how it could be for Roboto Flex...

You could easily select any one of 3,078 combinations like that.
This would make Affinity the best variable font interface and support there is.
The only other app which supports the STAT table is Word on Mac (and not like this).

Another thing I was going to mention...

The tick-marks on the slider are obviously just meaningless place holders.
Having them display the Axis Default, and the Axis Instances is far more useful.
Below is Roboto Flex in FontLab 8.
The black dot is the Axis Default.
The tic marks are the Axis Instances.
And the dots at the ends are the Axis Min and Max.
All of these can be selected by clicking on them.

This would be really nice to help users visualize what is going on.

[Affinityconfusesme]

+1 for this in the first beta of 2.6.

[kenmcd]

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

If so, I think it would be useful if the name of the original Font Style appeared in the Font Variation Settings popup whenever an axis was changed from its default for that instance. This is so that, since at that time the Font Style in the Context toolbar is blank (because it is no longer the original) we would know what the reset would be.

A less desirable alternative would be to still show the original Font Style name in the Context toolbar but with an asterisk or star or some such icon to show it's been modified.

Does that make sense?

Not sure my ramblings above answered all your questions.

I think defining settings as a modification of a Named Instance would be a bit unwieldy.
As you move along the axes when does it become closer to another Named Instance, and therefore a modification of that Named Instance?
And because of the interface issues Named Instances can be rather limited,
so almost everything is a modification.

Using a STAT interface to the Axis Instances gives you access to many more effective named instances, so users have many, many more chances to have a pre-defined "perfect" setting.

But sometimes the perfect setting is "51.22" or some another odd setting - which is an advantage of variable fonts - you can get to that perfect setting.

[Alfred]

10 hours ago, 000 said:

This dynamic font does not work: https://indestructibletype.com/Gnomon.html

Gnomon needs a colour for the shadow. The Affinity apps don’t yet support colour fonts.

[Hangman]

10 hours ago, 000 said:

This dynamic font does not work

Hi @000,

It seems fine, what specifically isn't working for you...

 

[Alfred]

8 minutes ago, Hangman said:

It seems fine

Please explain how you created your video clip.

[Hangman]

24 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Please explain how you created your video clip.

Create your text using Gnomon* Simple, the variable version of the font, duplicate the layer and colour the layers appropriately then apply the Font Variation to the lower layer...

It's the same concept as 'Extraordinaire' except this uses two versions of the same variable font 'Extraordinaire Variable' for the top layer and 'Extraordinaire Variable Shade' for the shadow...

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

19 hours ago, 000 said:

This dynamic font does not work: https://indestructibletype.com/Gnomon.html

Ok, but, do we need such a gimmick font? No. No.Nooo…

[R C-R]

8 hours ago, Hangman said:

It's the same concept as 'Extraordinaire' except this uses two versions of the same variable font 'Extraordinaire Variable' for the top layer and 'Extraordinaire Variable Shade' for the shadow...

So in your video, is the Shade version dynamically changing position depending on your (local?) time of day, or are you changing that manually?

[R C-R]

18 hours ago, kenmcd said:

I think defining settings as a modification of a Named Instance would be a bit unwieldy.

All I can say is as an end user, I personally would be happy if there was just a way to reset the selected text to the named Font Style I used when I first applied that variable font to some of my text, particularly for the variable fonts that also had static versions with the same style, if that makes any sense.

18 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Using a STAT interface to the Axis Instances gives you access to many more effective named instances, so users have many, many more chances to have a pre-defined "perfect" setting.

This strikes me as a very advanced feature that few users would ever have much practical use for, so if it was implemented, I would hope that it is done as an option of some sort, sort of like the show hidden axes one.

[Hangman]

38 minutes ago, R C-R said:

So in your video, is the Shade version dynamically changing position depending on your (local?) time of day, or are you changing that manually?

Haha, no, that feature is designed to be programmable via JavaScript for websites…

As we don’t yet have any form of scripting in the Affinity apps or any animation functionality we’re not likely to have that ability anytime soon, nice though it would be…

[R C-R]

1 minute ago, Hangman said:

Haha, no, that feature is designed to be programmable via JavaScript for websites…

Which I assume makes that feature basically useless for use with anything exportable from Affinity, right? Besides, the concept of its 'time of day' axis seems quite limited because from what I can tell, it doesn't consider latitude or seasonal changes -- IOW, just a gimmick?

[kenmcd]

18 minutes ago, R C-R said:

All I can say is as an end user, I personally would be happy if there was just a way to reset the selected text to the named Font Style I used when I first applied that variable font to some of my text, particularly for the variable fonts that also had static versions with the same style, if that makes any sense.

So you are first selecting a Font Family and Font Style from the Font Menu, like you would do with static fonts (but it is actually a Named Instance of a variable font), and then invoking the axis interface and making some changes to test a few variations - and then decide...take me back to the unmodified original style - such as FontFamily Condensed Bold.
Is that sort of the scenario?
This could work, until you press Save or Apply, etc.
Once that happens you are saving the variations (actually as locations in the designspace).
Named instances are a set of pre-defined axis locations in the designspace.
A Named Instance may look the same as a static font style name, but it is really a short-cut to a bunch of variations/axis settings.

They would have to keep (store) the original name selection, enable you to make the potential variations, and then perhaps have a Save or Apply button, to make it permanent, or a Cancel, or Reset button to go back to the original selected style.

Hmmm... the plus (+) usually is for text attributes added to a style.

I think what you are proposing would be keeping variations as differences from a Named Style - which underneath is actually a set of pre-defined variations.

Having trouble conceptualizing how this could work.

[R C-R]

30 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

Is that sort of the scenario?
This could work, until you press Save or Apply, etc.

Yes, that is what I was thinking about, & I personally don't care if, once I save the document, it no longer is saved in it. This is because I would just want to reset the text to a named Font Style when I was experimenting with the variations to learn how they affect that style. So for that all I need is a button to return to the original style.

[R C-R]

Returning to this for a moment...

23 hours ago, kenmcd said:

You could easily select any one of 3,078 combinations like that.
This would make Affinity the best variable font interface and support there is.
The only other app which supports the STAT table is Word on Mac (and not like this).

... can you provide an example of how that would be used in practice in Affinity?

When I think about how I will be using the axes of variable fonts in my projects, it will be to create a stylistic text effect I can't get by using any of the named Font Styles (or via the static versions). I would do that interactively by moving the axis sliders so I won't really care if it is one of these combinations or not.

[dominik]

13 hours ago, AffinityMakesMeWonder said:

Ok, but, do we need such a gimmick font? No. No.Nooo…

If every time people had shouted "No. No.Nooo..." when someone came up with a new idea you'd still be sitting in a cave 😗

d.

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

3 hours ago, dominik said:

If every time people had shouted "No. No.Nooo..." when someone came up with a new idea you'd still be sitting in a cave 😗

d.

This is an isolated thing - just that variable font seems unnecessary…

If it had five other axes/axis it would be a different usability…

Sometimes I think caved people could be more happy then we - nowadays people is depressed if they can’t afford a new 3000$ iPad or Mac…

[R C-R]

8 hours ago, dominik said:

If every time people had shouted "No. No.Nooo..." when someone came up with a new idea you'd still be sitting in a cave 😗

OTOH, just because something is new does not mean it is a good idea or useful, like these bizarre inventions.