Variable Font Support

[Patrick Connor]

40 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I believe that was added in today's beta.

It was I have edited Ash's post

36 minutes ago, Hangman said:

 Note also the additions at the top of the font dropdown menu which now allow you to filter by True Type, Open Type and Variable Fonts which is an excellent addition...

Also added to Ash's post

[garrettm30]

33 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Could anyone on Mac confirm whether they still see this issue in the latest Beta... I don't believe it's been logged yet so curious to know if the issue is resolved in the latest Beta...

I am on macOS 14.3.1, and I just tested with Roboto Serif and I see the same thing problem what you reported here:

On 4/29/2024 at 9:52 AM, Hangman said:

Adjusting the weight slider of an italic variable font only displays the italicised version at the minimum and maximum slider values, it doesn't display the italicised form anywhere between the two...

What I am seeing is that it seems to jump from italic to non-italic several times, not just the minimum and maximum. I presume it is going to italic when I pass over a named instance.

It may be relevant that I am using Typeface as my font manager, and I currently have both static and variable versions of that font active. I tried deactivating all of the static versions in Typeface. That seemed to work, but then when I restarted Publisher beta with only the variable versions of the font active, I experienced the same problem.

[Bobby Henderson]

I'm seeing some odd issues with certain variable axes not appearing, then later becoming visible and then disappearing again.

For example, Helvetica Now Variable has three axes: weight, width and optical size. The optical size slider initially wasn't available, just the weight and width values. The drop-down menu showed the various display, text and micro pre-sets. The axis slider just wasn't there. I went down the menu, selecting some other variable fonts, such as Futura Now Variable. Its optical axis slider was visible. So I checked Helvetica Now again and the optical axis slider was restored. Temporarily. Messing with some other fonts caused it to disappear again. It just comes and goes.

I understand the "hidden" axes for fonts like Roboto Serif, but even in those cases some axes that should be visible, such as Grade, are hidden. That's the case for Roboto Serif and Amstelvar.

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

3 hours ago, Hangman said:

This is indeed new to this Beta, note also the additions at the top of the font dropdown menu which now allow you to filter by True Type, Open Type and Variable Fonts which is an excellent addition...

This is the best new feature! Thanks Serif Labs!!

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

3 hours ago, R C-R said:

So am I still the only one to always see all 13 axes in Roboto Flex?

I do, but I have cheated !

I have changed the font in FontCreator to always show all axes...

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

3 hours ago, Hangman said:

Could anyone on Mac confirm whether they still see this issue in the latest Beta... I don't believe it's been logged yet so curious to know if the issue is resolved...

This is still a problem/bug on MacOS 14.5 with Publisher 2.50b3 for me...

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

1 hour ago, Bobby Henderson said:

I'm seeing some odd issues with certain variable axes not appearing, then later becoming visible and then disappearing again.

For example, Helvetica Now Variable has three axes: weight, width and optical size. The optical size slider initially wasn't available, just the weight and width values. The drop-down menu showed the various display, text and micro pre-sets. The axis slider just wasn't there. I went down the menu, selecting some other variable fonts, such as Futura Now Variable. Its optical axis slider was visible. So I checked Helvetica Now again and the optical axis slider was restored. Temporarily. Messing with some other fonts caused it to disappear again. It just comes and goes.

I understand the "hidden" axes for fonts like Roboto Serif, but even in those cases some axes that should be visible, such as Grade, are hidden. That's the case for Roboto Serif and Amstelvar.

I see the axes 'Grade' for both Roboto Serif and Amstelvar on my MacBook Pro...

[Hangman]

2 minutes ago, AffinityMakesMeWonder said:

This is still a problem/bug on MacOS 14.5 with Publisher 2.50b3 for me...

Many thanks for confirming...

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, garrettm30 said:

Yes, as well as the new icon about font type that just got added to the main font dropdown. Please also add that to the font selection in the Text Style Editor. That’s where I pick fonts most often, and currently there is no way to tell the difference.

Also, it would be nice if the favorite "heart" button appeared there as well as in other places like the Character panel.

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, Pauls said:

does it still happen if you start from scratch with a new document?

I am not sure which post you mean or which bug, but if you are asking about the Font Book crash I mentioned above, then yes it does. The crash report looks very similar to the ones I PM'ed yesterday

[Hangman]

7 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I am not sure which post you mean or which bug, but if you are asking about the Font Book crash I mentioned above, then yes it does. The crash report looks very similar to the ones I PM'ed yesterday

I believe the response from @Pauls was about your earlier comment...

4 hours ago, R C-R said:

So am I still the only one to always see all 13 axes in Roboto Flex?

[kenmcd]

On 4/29/2024 at 7:52 AM, Hangman said:

Adjusting the weight slider of an italic variable font only displays the italicised version at the minimum and maximum slider values, it doesn't display the italicised form anywhere between the two...

Note: Roboto Flex will give the appearance that this works but that is because Roboto Flex includes a slant axes...

First, there is an Italic variable font, there is an Italic axis, and there is a Slant axis.
And they each work differently.
So you cannot really compare it to Roboto Flex.

Source Serif 4 Italic is a variable font (which is style-linked to the Roman variable font).
In your video it looks like it is flipping back and forth between displaying the Italic variable font and the linked Roman variable font.
Obviously it is not supposed to do that when simply moving the Weight axis.

Did you install the Source Serif 4 variable TTF fonts or the variable OTF fonts?
I do not know if Affinity is even going to support the OTF variable fonts (I doubt it).
Windows 10 does not play well at all with the OTF variable fonts (do not even install to test).
So test with the TTF variable fonts only.
Are you on a Mac?

The issue could be with how Adobe links the fonts in a non-standard way.
Do you have any issues similar to this with other non-Adobe variable fonts which include both a separate Roman variable font and a separate Italic variable font?
Meaning not a single variable font which includes an Italic axis.
Two separate variable fonts.

[R C-R]

9 minutes ago, Hangman said:

I believe the response from @Pauls was about your earlier comment...

If so, then yes I still see all 13 Roboto Flex axes in new documents in the latest betas.

[Hangman]

2 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

Did you install the Source Serif 4 variable TTF fonts or the variable OTF fonts?

The TTF version...

5 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

In your video it looks like it is flipping back and forth between displaying the Italic variable font and the linked Roman variable font.
Obviously it is not supposed to do that when simply moving the Weight axis.

Exactly that... you don't see the same behaviour on Windows, i.e., adjusting the Weight slider correctly adjusts the weight of the Italic variable...

3 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

I do not know if Affinity is even going to support the OTF variable fonts (I doubt it).

I did test an OTF variable font using the Affinity apps and it seemed to work without issue (I can't recall now which particular font it was)...

7 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

The issue could be with how Adobe links the fonts in a non-standard way.

On Mac, this happens with a variety (though not all) of different fonts (see the second screen recording)...

10 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

Do you have any issues similar to this with other non-Adobe variable fonts which include both a separate Roman variable font and a separate Italic variable font?

I don't believe these are all Adobe fonts... e.g., everything works correctly with Montserrat Italic but not with Playfair Italic or Shantell Italic both of which have separate Italic versions as seen in the screen recording linked above...

[kenmcd]

6 minutes ago, Hangman said:

I don't believe these are all Adobe fonts... e.g., everything works correctly with Montserrat Italic but not with Playfair Italic or Shantell Italic both of which have separate Italic versions as seen in the screen recording linked above...

OK. Watched the video.
And will go poke around in the fonts.

I vaguely remember a discussion regarding Shantell that may be related.
Going to see I can find that first.

Note: I reported an issue with Playfair yesterday that he has already fixed, and will be in a new release (from the repository).
It may or may not affect this.
Did not look at the fvar table, but it could have also been affected.
Also note: Playfair releases from the font developer's repository are quite different from the version on Google Fonts.
His versions are more advanced in some ways.
But wait for the new version to test.

 

[garrettm30]

47 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

Did you install the Source Serif 4 variable TTF fonts or the variable OTF fonts?
I do not know if Affinity is even going to support the OTF variable fonts (I doubt it).

That makes me realize that the new iconography that we just got in this beta (which we are glad to see) does not seem exactly aligned with the actual facts. The new icons would suggest TrueType, OpenType, and OpenType Variable. But actually, it seems most of the variables are actually TrueType Variables.

Related to that, the very old Postscript Type 1 fonts are also given the “TT” icon, and they are included when the list is filtered by TrueType. That latter point particularly ought to be addressed. Postscript Type 1 fonts still work, and I still use them for the very old documents when I am not willing to make a redesign, but I do not want to accidentally select one for new work, thinking it is TrueType.

[Alfred]

8 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

The new icons would suggest TrueType, OpenType, and OpenType Variable. But actually, it seems most of the variables are actually TrueType Variables.

You beat me to it! I was about to post the same observations, but I thought I should check first to see exactly what had already been posted.

[Bobby Henderson]

Technically, variable fonts are "OpenType." The standard is called OpenType Variable. It's just like "color fonts" being part of the OpenType-SVG standard. The trick is whether the variable fonts are using TrueType style quadratic outlines or Postscript-based outlines. The ones with TTF outlines are packaged in a TrueType container.

[kenmcd]

28 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

But actually, it seems most of the variables are actually TrueType Variables.

No, they are OpenType variables - of the TrueType flavor.
There are two flavors of OpenType:
- OpenType-TT - with TrueType outlines - (quadratic curves) - (TT) - (.ttf)
- OpenType-PS - with PostScript outlines - (cubic curves) - (CFF) - (.otf)

Currently 99% of the OpenType variable fonts are OpenType-TT flavor.
Adobe has now been making OpenType PS-flavor fonts too.
For example Source Sans, Source Serif, Source Mono include both OTF and TTF.
A few commercial vendors are now doing it too.
The current CFF table (where the glyphs are kept) in OpenType-PS fonts does not support variability.
So this required a new kind of table in the font, CFF2, to be able to support variability.
Very few applications support CFF2, and OTF variable fonts (surprise Adobe does).

And the new OFF spec these guys are working on includes being able to put PS curves in the existing glyf table used for OpenType-TT flavor fonts now - so it won't matter.

So, yes the new icons are a bit misleading, but not really wrong.

[Hangman]

45 minutes ago, kenmcd said:

OK. Watched the video.
And will go poke around in the fonts.

I vaguely remember a discussion regarding Shantell that may be related.
Going to see I can find that first.

Note: I reported an issue with Playfair yesterday that he has already fixed, and will be in a new release (from the repository).
It may or may not affect this.
Did not look at the fvar table, but it could have also been affected.
Also note: Playfair releases from the font developer's repository are quite different from the version on Google Fonts.
His versions are more advanced in some ways.
But wait for the new version to test.

Keen to hear what you discover…

I think the main issue is that using the same Italic variable fonts only demonstrates the problem on Mac when dragging the weight slider, all works correctly using on Windows…

[kenmcd]

15 minutes ago, Hangman said:

I think the main issue is that using the same Italic variable fonts only demonstrates the problem on Mac when dragging the weight slider, all works correctly using on Windows…

There has been a similar issue with some variable fonts from GF in InDesign.
(you see this in the various issue trackers)
That one is related to some non-standard stuff Adobe wants in the fonts.
Specifically in the name table.
I hope this is not the same thing - meaning Affinity is following the same path.
Because that is a direct collision course with GF.

Anyway, I'm off to rummage around...

EDIT: correction "name" table

And: Or this just could be normal Beta stuff.

[Hangman]

Interesting and good to know…

Happy rummaging, let us know what you discover… I’ll run tests on some more fonts when I get a chance…

[AffinityMakesMeWonder]

3 hours ago, kenmcd said:

First, there is an Italic variable font, there is an Italic axis, and there is a Slant axis.
And they each work differently.
So you cannot really compare it to Roboto Flex.

Source Serif 4 Italic is a variable font (which is style-linked to the Roman variable font).
In your video it looks like it is flipping back and forth between displaying the Italic variable font and the linked Roman variable font.
Obviously it is not supposed to do that when simply moving the Weight axis.

Did you install the Source Serif 4 variable TTF fonts or the variable OTF fonts?
I do not know if Affinity is even going to support the OTF variable fonts (I doubt it).
Windows 10 does not play well at all with the OTF variable fonts (do not even install to test).
So test with the TTF variable fonts only.
Are you on a Mac?

The issue could be with how Adobe links the fonts in a non-standard way.
Do you have any issues similar to this with other non-Adobe variable fonts which include both a separate Roman variable font and a separate Italic variable font?
Meaning not a single variable font which includes an Italic axis.
Two separate variable fonts.

I can also answer this (last sentence) - even when using a separate Italic variable font, it’s messy when using the axes, it goes pretty soon to non-italic and can’t be changed…

MacOS 14.5 beta4…

[kenmcd]

4 hours ago, AffinityMakesMeWonder said:

I can also answer this (last sentence) - even when using a separate Italic variable font, it’s messy when using the axes, it goes pretty soon to non-italic and can’t be changed…

MacOS 14.5 beta4…

Yeah. Seems to be an Affinity bug(s).

I closely examined the fonts @Hangman tested and found nothing which would explain the issues, of why the one font (Montserrat) did work as expected. The name table, the fvar table, the STAT table in all fonts appears to be fine. So something else is going on or I am just missing it. Thought it might be the use of ranges in certain axis settings, but another font with ranges is working. Got me baffled (easy to do).

Beta Blues.

[kenmcd]

@Hangman There is a single font version of Shantell Sans in the repo.

Rather than two separate fonts, Roman and Italic, it also has an Italic axis in the one font. IIRC it's v1.009. On my phone at the moment, but I can post the font or a link tomorrow if you do not find it.

Based on what @AffinityMakesMeWonder said above about the similar issue with the Italic axis font, it may be good to compare the similar version of Shantell Sans with an Italic axis.

EDIT: May want to scratch that idea. Remembered GF gave up on Italic axis fonts and now requires two separate fonts. Too many problems. 

And IIRC it was either Helvetica Now variable or Avenir Next variable which came out with both - a single font with Italic axis, or two fonts. And they quickly withdrew the single font version. (can check this tomorrow to be sure) 

Affinity may also have problems trying to make single fonts with Italic axis work.