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Photo's default tool is the View tool. I rarely use this tool in any app so I was wondering if there's a way to change Photo's default tool to the Move tool.

I thought I'd just remove the View tool with Customize Tools but when I tried that and created a new document Photo still defaulted to the View tool. Since the tool was no longer in the panel it couldn't show it as selected but it was active anyway which is kind of interesting.

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1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

Photo's default tool is the View tool. I rarely use this tool in any app so I was wondering if there's a way to change Photo's default tool to the Move tool.

There have been multiple requests to give us a choice of the default startup tool but so far they have not implemented anything like that, so we are stuck with having to switch from the View tool to another tool to do any actual work on the files we open.

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Hi @MikeTO,

Thanks for your feedback here!

As I've confirmed in this thread, I'm going to be logging this as a split request with our development team;

Firstly, to reconsider changing the default tool in Photo to the Move Tool, matching Designer and Publisher.

Secondly, I'm going to be requesting a user controllable option to customise the default tool, should the Move Tool not be the users preference.

5 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I thought I'd just remove the View tool with Customize Tools but when I tried that and created a new document Photo still defaulted to the View tool. Since the tool was no longer in the panel it couldn't show it as selected but it was active anyway which is kind of interesting.

I don't mind being honest and confirming that I'm not entirely certain what the best or expected behaviour is here - I can understand that if the tool isn't shown in the Tools panel, then it can't be highlighted as selected which may cause some customer confusion.
However for this specific instance, would you expect the app to activate to a tool that is not the default tool, but the next available one in the Tools panel?

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39 minutes ago, Dan C said:

I can understand that if the tool isn't shown in the Tools panel, then it can't be highlighted as selected which may cause some customer confusion.
However for this specific instance, would you expect the app to activate to a tool that is not the default tool, but the next available one in the Tools panel?

@Dan C I would rather prefer that in this scenario the app should recognize that the default tool isn't shown in the tools panel and bring it back to the tools panel rather than chosing the next available tool.

This would prevent mistakes made by the user eg. like selecting default tool and then removing it from the toolbar that has no sence. 

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8 hours ago, MikeTO said:

Since the tool was no longer in the panel it couldn't show it as selected but it was active anyway which is kind of interesting.

Do you think that it's weird, if you use a keyboard shortcut for a tool - which you don't currently have displayed on the Tools panel (the entire Tool panel can be hidden), that this tool will be activated?

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4 hours ago, Dan C said:

I don't mind being honest and confirming that I'm not entirely certain what the best or expected behaviour is here - I can understand that if the tool isn't shown in the Tools panel, then it can't be highlighted as selected which may cause some customer confusion.
However for this specific instance, would you expect the app to activate to a tool that is not the default tool, but the next available one in the Tools panel?

I wasn't entirely sure how it worked or should work either. I think next available would be great. In fact, I don't think we need a settings option to set the default tool, the app could set the default to the tool at the top of the panel. The current default tools are all at the top so this would be a minimalist change.

If the user moved a stacked tool to the top (i.e., frame/art text), the app default for that stack would be the default tool of course.

1 hour ago, Pšenda said:

Do you think that it's weird, if you use a keyboard shortcut for a tool - which you don't currently have displayed on the Tools panel (the entire Tool panel can be hidden), that this tool will be activated?

I don't find it odd, it's just the UI that's hidden. Photoshop even has an option to allow keyboard shortcuts to be used for hidden tools. Of course its hidden tools aren't truly hidden - it has an Extras (removed tools) stack.

Off topic, I noticed a tiny cosmetic glitch when playing with stacked tools just now.

  1. Start Affinity, create a doc, and choose a different shape tool from the shape tool stack. This sets the app's default for the stack.
  2. Close the document - the previous stack default will be shown, disabled of course
  3. Create a new document - the correct stack default will be shown
  4. Close the document - the previous stack default will be shown, disabled of course
  5. Restart - now it's correct
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5 hours ago, Dan C said:

I don't mind being honest and confirming that I'm not entirely certain what the best or expected behaviour is here - I can understand that if the tool isn't shown in the Tools panel, then it can't be highlighted as selected which may cause some customer confusion.

IMO, as long as the context toolbar and/or tool cursor in the workspace make it clear which tool is selected then it should not matter that it is not shown or highlighted in the Tools panel.

Besides, as @Pšenda pointed out, the panel may be hidden or a hidden tool may be selected via a keyboard shortcut.

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3 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I think next available would be great. In fact, I don't think we need a settings option to set the default tool, the app could set the default to the tool at the top of the panel. The current default tools are all at the top so this would be a minimalist change.

i would hate to see a tool become the default simply because it was the top (top left if one is using more than one column?) tool in the panel. I have the Tools panel arranged how I like it & do not want to have to worry if for whatever reason I wanted any particular tool to be the top left one without it becoming the default.

9 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I don't find it odd, it's just the UI that's hidden. Photoshop even has an option to allow keyboard shortcuts to be used for hidden tools.

??? So do all the Affinity apps. For instance, hide the Tools panel & open a document. The default View Tool will be selected. Now press B, P, etc. In fact, hide the entire UI with the Tab key. You can still change to any tool that has a shortcut, right?

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5 minutes ago, R C-R said:

??? So do all the Affinity apps. For instance, hide the Tools panel & open a document. The default View Tool will be selected. Now press B, P, etc. In fact, hide the entire UI with the Tab key. You can still change to any tool that has a shortcut, right?

I meant that in Photoshop, you have an option in settings to turn off keyboard shortcuts for tools that you've removed from the panel. The shortcuts work by default, just like in Affinity, but you can turn them off. I think this is a bit silly so I'm not advocating for this.

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22 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

In fact, I don't think we need a settings option to set the default tool, the app could set the default to the tool at the top of the panel. The current default tools are all at the top so this would be a minimalist change.

I’ve expressed similar thoughts when contributing to previous discussions about this issue.

7 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I have the Tools panel arranged how I like it & do not want to have to worry if for whatever reason I wanted any particular tool to be the top left one without it becoming the default.

I can’t imagine a scenario where I would choose to place a particular tool at top left if I didn’t want it to be the default! Having said that, we’re all different and the nub of the issue is one person’s choice being imposed on everybody else. A ‘Make default’ option would work for everyone, and moving the default tool to the top left position would be minimal additional effort for those of us who prefer such an arrangement.

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6 hours ago, Dan C said:

reconsider changing the default tool in Photo to the Move Tool, matching Designer and Publisher.

Perhaps it's just me, but I can fully follow the idea why the Hand tool is default in APh, and why the Move tool would be the wrong choice in the app context:

  • The likely typical workflow for the vast majority of APh users would be opening a bitmap image and look at it first.
  • The Hand tool context toolbar displays a brief summary of the image: dimensions, color mode, profile, camera data. This is a Very Good Thing™.
  • Then a user may perhaps zoom in (I do by using two-finger pinch on the trackpad) and look at a couple of details without accidentally changing anything on the image itself via clicks or dragging.

In other words, the Hand tool is the perfect "safety net" to just view images without accidentally modifying them. (Yep, APh sometimes has certain benefits as an image viewer over, say, Preview.app on Mac.)

Whereas with the Move tool active, the standard image layer in the above scenario behaves like a "smart object", being directly editable in the way vector objects are. This is usually not the first thing that I, or one, would ever want to do with a bitmap image, isn't it?

If I had a choice for a "default 'secondary' tool" in APh, then it likely would be the Rectangular Marquee tool. This is what makes sense in the context of the app.

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1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

the app could set the default to the tool at the top of the panel.

No, no, and 100× no!

Thou shall not touch my painstakingly developed Tools panel order! :80_smile_cat:

Each tool has found its position for a reason:

aph2_tools_panel_by_loukash_order.png.3558db13e3bd5f109d92ad359fcbbc64.png

And it shall stay exactly this way.
Until my next revision, that is… :D 

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6 hours ago, Dan C said:

a user controllable option to customise the default tool

Right-click on a tool in the Tools panel and select "Make default".

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13 minutes ago, loukash said:

If I had a choice for a "default 'secondary' tool" in APh, then it likely would be the Rectangular Marquee tool. This is what makes sense in the context of the app.

Your post is well argued in general, but the above suggestion is a good one in particular, since use of the Rectangular Marquee wouldn’t affect the layer content of the document. Serif’s previous image editor, PhotoPlus, had an annoying habit of marking the document as ‘dirty’ (i.e. having undergone changes that necessitated a resave) if you merely made a ‘marching ants’ selection. This continued to be the case even if you went back to the bottom of the Undo stack, despite the fact that both the history and any pixel selections in PhotoPlus are discarded on exit.

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7 minutes ago, loukash said:

Right-click on a tool in the Tools panel and select "Make default".

Exactly this.

56 minutes ago, Alfred said:

A ‘Make default’ option would work for everyone

 

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5 minutes ago, Alfred said:

since use of the Rectangular Marquee wouldn’t affect the layer content of the document. Serif’s previous image editor, PhotoPlus, had an annoying habit of marking the document as ‘dirty’ (i.e. having undergone changes that necessitated a resave) if you merely made a ‘marching ants’ selection.

I just noticed that the Rectangular Marquee still does mark it "dirty", at least on Mac.
So not all that "good one in particular" idea, after all.

But it again demonstrates why the Hand tool is a Good Idea™ to begin with.

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Please don't make the first visible tool the default tool.
Make the move tool default and make it sticky in the tools panel(undeletable)
This way nobody get's confused whether the new or the old userbase.
Don't have Serif put effort and time in another approach to be yet different again.

 




 

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43 minutes ago, loukash said:

I just noticed that the Rectangular Marquee still does mark it "dirty"

That makes sense in the Affinity apps, where you can choose to retain the History list when you save the document. It makes no sense at all in the legacy ‘Plus’ applications, since its Undo/Redo stack is discarded when you close the document, and any selections are lost.

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3 hours ago, R C-R said:

i would hate to see a tool become the default simply because it was the top (top left if one is using more than one column?) tool in the panel. I have the Tools panel arranged how I like it & do not want to have to worry if for whatever reason I wanted any particular tool to be the top left one without it becoming the default.

Complete agreement.

 

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3 hours ago, Alfred said:

I can’t imagine a scenario where I would choose to place a particular tool at top left if I didn’t want it to be the default!

For example, because I have the tools arranged as much as possible in all applications - which does not correspond at all to my needs for a default tool.

Merging functions/features like layout of tools for the best possible workflow, and some sideefect (that it's also the default tool) is just the wrong way to do it. If it is necessary to define a default tool, then let this option be in the Preferences.

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2 hours ago, loukash said:

Right-click on a tool in the Tools panel and select "Make default".

Or in Customize Tools... dialog, where the choice made can be displayed.

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5 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

in Customize Tools... dialog, where the choice made can be displayed.

Edited by loukash
deleted, I misread the quote

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2 hours ago, loukash said:

The likely typical workflow for the vast majority of APh users would be opening a bitmap image and look at it first.

Why would the first thing typically be just to look at a preexisting photo or any other kind of bitmap image? After all, AP is a multi-purpose app with both image editing & creation features, right? I'm fairly sure a lot of users use it frequently if not exclusively to create original work, for example something like the amazing Bird.afphoto or the other samples included with AP V2.

Personally, I am just as likely to be reopening a preexisting *.afphoto file, typically for further work or to copy one or more of its layers for use in other documents, as I am just to use AP as some sort of ad hoc image browser. And of course, like many others I may be starting up AP from the "Edit In..." menu of AD or APub to do something with AP that I can't do with either of those other apps, so I have no reason just to look at its existing bitmap layer(s).

2 hours ago, loukash said:

In other words, the Hand tool is the perfect "safety net" to just view images without accidentally modifying them.

If you want a "safety net" tool as your preferred default why not make it the Zoom Tool? Not only does it not modify anything, by using the spacebar you can quickly & easily toggle between the Zoom & View Tools.

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14 minutes ago, loukash said:

and totally straightforward

Except that the setting is nowhere to be seen - so if you are not sure, you will constantly be setting the already set.
Sorry, but a UI that doesn't allow you to display the status that is currently set - it's really not very good.

 

14 minutes ago, loukash said:

The thing is that it would require a pretty looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong popup menu, especially in Photo.

I don't know why it should be clumsily handled through popup menu. The existing array of icons would be used, pointing to a specific one, right click, Set as default. To display the current default tool, only another item in the dialog would be used, perhaps somewhere next to/above the entry of the number of columns, and that's it. Anything related to tools is then set/displayed in Customize Tools..., which is totally straightforward.

Edited by Pšenda

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4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I'm fairly sure a lot of users use it frequently if not exclusively to create original work

Of course.
But define "a lot". No anecdotal evidence please. ;) 

That was meant just rhetorically.

In other words, it's Serif who have any statistical data about the "typical" app usage, hence it's up them to weigh it and make decisions.
Us who regularly hang around here on the forums are unlikely "typical Affinity users". My 2 cents…

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