Affinity Publisher — View → Show Text Flow should show/hide only text frame linking lines not text frame blue outlines.

[bbrother]

App: APh version 2.3.1
OS: Windows 10 Pro (22H2 compilation 19045.3930)
Hardware Acceleration: OFF

Problem:

1. Create 5 text frames. (Just for demonstration)
2. Link 3 text frames to make a sequence of linked frames. Fill them with text.
3. Fill the last two text frames with text. But leave them as independend not linked to any other frame.
4. Now turn off the View → Show Text Flow option

What happens (problem):

• Blue linking lines between linked text frames are turned off (ok).
• Blue outlines in the linked text frames are also turned off (problem).
  They appear only in a frame that is curently selected.
• Even in those 2 standalone and independent not linked with any other text frame the blue outline is turned off (problem).
  There is no text flow beween those independent text frames.

What i would expect to happen:

I would expect that only text frame linking lines (blue lines with arrows) between linked text frames would be turned off/on. Leaving me the opportunity to continue working with the frames (resizing, positioning) while having a visual reference to their boundaries.

The blue text frame outlines shouldn't be affected by View → Show Text Flow because they represent the text frame size not text flow.
The only case when i would expect that the blue text frame outlines would be turned off/on is when using the preview mode.
Similar to Indesign "Show Text Threads" option that leaves the frame outlines untouched.

When im writing "Blue linking lines between linked text frames" i mean those lines (see picture bellow).

 

[walt.farrell]

14 minutes ago, bbrother said:

The blue text frame outlines shouldn't be affected by View → Show Text Flow because they represent the text frame size not text flow.
The only case when i would expect that the blue text frame outlines would be turned off/on is when using the preview mode.

In general, the bounding box for an object is only shown when the object is Selected. 

View > Show Text Flow overrides that for Text Frames, and shows both the flow and the boxes for frames that are not Selected. If you turn that option off, the Text Frames' appearance behaves just as for other kinds of objects.

This is by design, not a bug, as far as I know.

[Callum]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

In general, the bounding box for an object is only shown when the object is Selected. 

View > Show Text Flow overrides that for Text Frames, and shows both the flow and the boxes for frames that are not Selected. If you turn that option off, the Text Frames' appearance behaves just as for other kinds of objects.

This is by design, not a bug, as far as I know.

I will double check with our QA team tomorrow but I believe Walt is correct here.

[MikeTO]

I think it's by design, too, and it makes sense to me. I wouldn't expect another object's bounding box to be visible when Show Text Flow, even if it's linked to the current frame.

However, I understand @bbrother's point. Sometimes the text flow lines get in the way and it would be nice to hide them but you also want to see the bounding box of all text frames on the page because some of them might be empty and thus invisible.

One way to solve this is to use multiple columns in a single frame if that works for the layout - multi-column frames show where the columns are even when only the first column is empty.

In the case of a layout that requires separate frames on the same page, you could solve it by using filler text in the frames on the master page. If the frames are on the main page you could use filer text in them temporarily until you're ready to type real text.

[bbrother]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:38 PM, walt.farrell said:

In general, the bounding box for an object is only shown when the object is Selected.

@walt.farrell that is not true. Text frames in Affinity Publisher have an blue outline (bounding box) even when they are not selected.
Only difference is that a selected text frame also has control handles and Text Flow buttons (see screenshot below)↓

When you link text frames an additional blue line with arrow in the middle is drawn between Text Flow buttons (triangles) of linked frames (see screenshot in the first post). 
Triangle positioned in top left in text frame is for "Text Flow In", and triangle in bottom right is for "Text Flow Out".

@Callum could you explain why the heck the "Show Text Flow" option doesn't toggle only that line between Text Flow Buttons of linked text frames, because for me this is the only indicator that has to do with tex flow, but it also affects the outline of the text frame (bounding box), which has nothing to do with text flow. 
What's even more strange, the outline (bounding box) of text frames that are independent and not connected to others is also toggled on/off.

 

On 1/24/2024 at 7:00 PM, MikeTO said:

Sometimes the text flow lines get in the way and it would be nice to hide them but you also want to see the bounding box of all text frames on the page because some of them might be empty and thus invisible.

That's not what I mean.
The point is that the Show Text Flow option should only toggle those blue lines between Text Flow buttons of linked text frames. Text frame outlines should be left visible as they by them self dont have anything to do with text flow. Text frames are just containers that can be placed all around without logical flow of text.

@MikeTO when you uncheck the Show Text Flow you will be unable do draw and position text frameon page or relative to other frames at your will because you need a visual reference (outline, bounding box ) to do this kind of things.

[MikeTO]

I think you're asking for Publisher to have a separate Show Frame Edges command like InDesign offers. Publisher combines Show Text Threads and Show Frame Edges together as Show Text Flow. I can see the value in splitting these functions.

Cheers

[walt.farrell]

48 minutes ago, bbrother said:

Text frames in Affinity Publisher have an blue outline (bounding box) even when they are not selected.

But only with View > Show Text Flow enabled. That is one of the functions of that setting.

[bbrother]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:22 PM, MikeTO said:

I think you're asking for Publisher to have a separate Show Frame Edges command like InDesign offers. Publisher combines Show Text Threads and Show Frame Edges together as Show Text Flow. I can see the value in splitting these functions.

Yes you're close @MikeTO. Combining Text Threads + Text frames as one in "Show Text Flow", this doesn't make sense at all and turns the matter upside down.
Frame edges and frames by them self have nothing to do with text flow. 
Only someone who has no idea about typesetting could design it this way. That's why I think it's a bug.

On 1/24/2024 at 8:26 PM, walt.farrell said:

But only with View > Show Text Flow enabled. That is one of the functions of that setting.

Once again. Text frame outlines, bounding box, frame or whatever you want to name it have nothing to do with Text Flow.
If they (Serif) want to make an option to hide text frame outline they should call it "Show  / Hide Text Frame Outline".

When I work on complex project I want to be able to quick turn off/on just the lines that are drawn between Text Flow buttons on linked text frames because there's a lot going on on the spread in complex layouts (linked text frames, standalone textframes, graphic, etc). But the text frame outlines are needed to continue making the layout they should stay visible independely of Text Flow indicators. 

 

[walt.farrell]

40 minutes ago, bbrother said:

If they (Serif) want to make an option to hide text frame outline they should call it "Show  / Hide Text Frame Outline".

Again, the frame outlines for non-selected frames are added by the Show Text Flow option. Nothing is being hidden. Nothing else has outlines when it is not selected.

 

[MikeTO]

1 hour ago, bbrother said:

Only someone who has no idea about typesetting could design it this way. That's why I think it's a bug.

I think Serif has demonstrated they know a lot about typesetting but sometimes their choices might work well for most users, but not all users. In this case, the single command works well for users who create documents with just one linked text frame per page and perhaps that is the majority of users. Those who create multiple linked frames on the same page like you do might want to have separate commands.

[PaulEC]

1 hour ago, bbrother said:

Text frame outlines ... have nothing to do with Text Flow.

I can't imagine what point there would be in showing the text flow if it didn't also show the text boxes it was flowing out of and in to!
(You may have text boxes with no text in them. in that case all you would see would be odd diagonal lines!)

[bbrother]

6 hours ago, PaulEC said:

I can't imagine what point there would be in showing the text flow if it didn't also show the text boxes it was flowing out of and in to!

@PaulEC You didn't understand what i was talking about. It's not about showing text flow without text frame outlines. It's about to toggle only text flow indicator with "Show Text Flow" and leaving the text frame bounding box displayed. Only the "Preview mode" should hide them.

 

6 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I think Serif has demonstrated they know a lot about typesetting but sometimes their choices might work well for most users, but not all users. In this case, the single command works well for users who create documents with just one linked text frame per page and perhaps that is the majority of users. Those who create multiple linked frames on the same page like you do might want to have separate commands.

I have a different opinion. So far, they prove something completely different. @MikeTO document with a single linked text frame per page? Are you serious, I thought you had a little more experience after your comments on the forum. It's not about separate commands but comands that do what they should do.

 

7 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Again, the frame outlines for non-selected frames are added by the Show Text Flow option. Nothing is being hidden. Nothing else has outlines when it is not selected.

@walt.farrellAgain. Text frame outlines have nothing to do with text flowing. Which is why the frame outlines for non-selected frames shouldn't be controlled by the Show Text Flow option. I recommend you to check out how text threading functionality, and Show Text Threads works in Indesign.

I know APub is not Indesign, I'm not a fan of Adobe due to their practices towards clients, but they knew what they were doing there. That's why Indesign is the standard in desktop publishing and even though Adobe users cry, they pay a lot of money for it.

If you dont have acces to Indesign check out this video on YT → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzqOovSRu58

 

[walt.farrell]

5 hours ago, bbrother said:

Again, Text frame outlines have nothing to do with text flowing. Which is why the frame outlines for non-selected frames shouldn't be controlled by the Show Text Flow option. I recommend you to check out how text threading functionality, and Show Text Threads works in Indesign.

 

And, again, in Publisher Text Frame visibility is handled the same as any other object, for consistency.

Example: Draw 3 unfilled shapes (rectangles, ellipses, whatever). Are they all visible? No. Only the ones that are Selected are visible. And Text Frames work the same way.

I understand you want this to work differently, so feel free to make a Feature Request. But it's not a bug that View > Show Text Flow implements visibility for all Text Frames; that's intentional.

[bbrother]

7 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

And, again, in Publisher Text Frame visibility is handled the same as any other object, for consistency.

Text frames and shape objects are a different story in DTP.

 

8 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

But it's not a bug that View > Show Text Flow implements visibility for all Text Frames; that's intentional.

I didn't find anything in the documentation that clearly indicated what to expect with this feature. I didn't expect this behavior, so I reported it as a bug.
If you are not a Serif employee, I would refrain from passing judgment on whether this is a bug or not.

[MikeTO]

7 hours ago, bbrother said:

I have a different opinion. So far, they prove something completely different. @MikeTO document with a single linked text frame per page? Are you serious, I thought you had a little more experience after your comments on the forum. It's not about separate commands but comands that do what they should do.

Most books published with page layout apps need only one linked frame per page to flow text from page to page. These books may have other frames for headers and footers, but just one that is linked so a combined command is sufficient for those users. I assume your documents are more complex since you want to hide text flow lines but not bounding boxes.

I agree that the help system description of this feature could be improved: https://affinity.help/publisher2/English.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Text/linkingTextFrames.html?title=Linking text frames

It states: "To temporarily hide blue link lines, arrows and overflow indicators, switch off Show Text Flow on the View menu."

A better description of what the command does would be "Deselect Show Text Flow in the View menu to hide the blue bounding boxes of unselected text frames and the text flow lines connecting them. When linking text frames, the blue bounding boxes and text flow lines will be shown even if this command is deselected."

[bbrother]

9 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

It states: "To temporarily hide blue link lines, arrows and overflow indicators, switch off Show Text Flow on the View menu."

God damn @MikeTO finaly, someone understood something and doesn't write some nonsense about frames visibility or unfilled shapes like @walt.farrell
This command doesn't work as described in the docs which is what I've been saying from the beginning.
It should hide blue link lines, arrows and overflow but it should not hide blue bounding boxes of text frames.

@MikeTo no need to update the description. They should fix the command so that it does what it was designed to do. 
The concept of this command is correct and so is the description in docs.

[walt.farrell]

33 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

When linking text frames, the blue bounding boxes and text flow lines will be shown even if this command is deselected."

That's not correct, is it? 

[bbrother]

54 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

When linking text frames, the blue bounding boxes and text flow lines will be shown even if this command is deselected."

It's not correct. If you deselect that command you will only see pure text when no text frame is selected.

You should all know that by default when this is on, selected text frame has blue bounding box with handles included and not selected text frames have clean blue outline without control handles.

 

[MikeTO]

36 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

That's not correct, is it? 

It is correct, at least on macOS. With Show Text Flow off the text flow lines and bounding boxes reappear until you stop linking. This is a great feature and avoids the need to turn Show Text Flow back on when linking frames.

 

 

[bbrother]

@MikeTO maybe you didn't noticed but we are in the windows bugs forum.

11 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

It is correct, at least on macOS

Your video is a proof that it's not correct on Mac also. It's not working as described in the docs.

[walt.farrell]

3 hours ago, MikeTO said:

It is correct, at least on macOS. With Show Text Flow off the text flow lines and bounding boxes reappear until you stop linking. This is a great feature and avoids the need to turn Show Text Flow back on when linking frames.

That's not something I had noticed, Mike. And it works the same way on Windows. Thanks.

Yes, your wording for the Help would be more accurate.

[bbrother]

@Callum can you finally confirm or deny that this is a bug? This polemic does not bring anything new because the matter for me seems clear.

Here's what the documentation is saying about the "Show Text Flow" command.

There is no mention that "Show Text Flow" option should turn on or off the blue text frames outlines (bounding boxes, edges) visibility.
As clearly stated, only the blue link lines, arrows and overflow indicators should be hidden.

[walt.farrell]

6 minutes ago, bbrother said:

There is no mention that "Show Text Flow" option should turn off the blue text frames outlines (bounding boxes) visibility.
As clearly stated, only the blue link lines, arrows and overflow indicators should be hidden.

There's also no mention that Show Text Flow should turn on the display of the text frames for unselected frames. But it does.

Without Show Text Flow, the display of the frames for Text Frames is identical to that for all other objects (except for the case mentioned by Mike when using the Linking triangles).

You're viewing it only from the turning off aspect, and seem to be ignoring the turning on aspect of Show Text Flow.

[bbrother]

@walt.farrell please stop posting that nonsense again an again. What don't you understand in the following sentence↓

As written above, whether or not to display text frame outlines is not a task that should be controlled by the "Show Text Flow" option.

Why text frames outlines (edges) by default should be always visible and not like other objects?
Because text does not have clean edges like shapes. That's why text frames should maintain their outlines.
That blue bounding box (outline) visualy shows text bounds. It's helpfull when positioning, resizing, aligning, gives you a better overview of the layout.

Of Course you should be able to turn of those outlines on demand. You can use for this "Preview mode".
But better would be an additional option like "Hide frame edges".

 

[walt.farrell]

30 minutes ago, bbrother said:

What don't you understand in the following sentence↓

As written above, whether or not to display text frame outlines is not a task that should be controlled by the "Show Text Flow" option.

Whether you think it should be controlled by that, or not, since the first release of Publisher the display of the text frame outlines has been controlled by Show Text Flow. 

Since there is no other control for that, and since the frames act like other objects when the option is off, and since text frames existed even before Publisher, the easiest assumption is that the code is working as designed and the Help is simply deficient.