Layer states - Applying query to subelements as well with show/hide others selected

[Bit Disappointed]

Designer 2.4.0 (2222), macOS

I'm trying to use layer states to show or hide layers with sublayers or groups. In other words, complex content.

When I select 'Show hide others', which I am trying to use to create a query that shows one layer and hides others, all sublayers, groups and objects under the layer I actually want to show are deselected.

Are we missing an option like "Include subelements" or whatever it should be labeled.

[Hangman]

Hi @Bit Arts,

Are you using Layer Tag Colours in conjunction with ‘Add show / hide others’ to achieve this or a different option…

If so there is a known bug logged as AF-1745 where despite the inherited layers appearing to adopt the tag colour applied to the group, they don’t which therefore means ‘Add show / hide others’ doesn’t work as expected until you manually apply the tag colour to the respective layers…

If this isn’t the case, what approach are you using to achieve this?

[Bit Disappointed]

Just now, Hangman said:

Hi @Bit Arts,

Are you using Layer Tag Colours in conjunction with ‘Add show / hide others’ to achieve this or a different option…

If so there is a known bug logged as AF-1745 where despite the inherited layers appearing to adopt the tag colour applied to the group, they don’t which therefore means ‘Add show / hide others’ doesn’t work as expected until you manually apply the tag colour to the respective layers…

If this isn’t the case, what approach are you using to achieve this?

Hi there Hangman 🙂

No using colors tags - just names. I will end up with hundreds of objects underneath each root layer with fairly unique names.

I have five main layers (and more on the way). Under these I have a considerable number of sub-content of various types. The first two levels look like this:

Alpha (Layer)
  A1 (Layer)
  A2 (Group)
  A3 (Curve)
  ... and many many more at this level and  sublevels

Bravo (Layer)
  B1 (Layer)
  B2 (Group)
  B3 (Curve)
  ... and many many more

Charlie (Layer)
  B1 (Layer)
  B2 (Group)
  B3 (Curve)
  ... and many many more

Delta (Layer)
  D1 (Layer)
  D2 (Group)
  D3 (Curve)
  ... and many many more

Echo (Layer)
  E1 (Layer)
  E2 (Group)
  E3 (Curve)
  ... and many many more

I am simply trying to create a query to display only Delta with all its subcontent - and to hide the other layers. Trying to use layer states to hide everything but the layer matching the layer name and its content. And vice versa. Makes sense? 🙂

[Bit Disappointed]

The use case here is to be able to focus on just a subset of the illustration, which also provides better performance when the illustration is very complex.

I can switch focus to different parts of the illustration several times a day and have been a bit tired of hiding and showing layers every time. So layer states are good news for my work in Designer.

[Hangman]

I’m not near a computer right now so unless someone has figured it out beforehand I’ll have a look in the morning and see if I can figure it out, though initially it does sound as though Layer should be an option the Layer type list…

Out of interest, if you add a $ suffix to your root level names, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie etc, and then include the $ after the ‘Layer name is’ criteria, ‘Alpha$’, ‘Bravo$’, ‘Charlie$’ and so on and enable ‘Regular expressions’, does it make any difference? I can’t see why it wouldn’t work without RegEx but just a thought.

I’ve not tested Layers yet with States so just thinking off the top of my head here but I’m also wondering whether it makes any difference if ‘Enable all Layers’ is active in the Layers panel when Layers are used in conjunction with States?

[Bit Disappointed]

The layer names in the example are just kept minimal and fictional to demonstrate the kind of layer hierachy I work with.

The names I actually use reflect many and  very unique subjects and objects, so even with regex, name matching down the hierarchy is not an option.

Ah good thought, but no, enable all layers has no impact, nor should it on a query, I think.

I'm very grateful for your input, but I think it's mostly Serif who will have to wrestle with the technicalities from here. But you're more than welcome to give it a try, of course.

Have a great Sunday!

[Bit Disappointed]

I must add that for my purpose, captured states is perhaps an obvious method, at least applicable here and now, although it is a somewhat static method and just a snapshot of the document here and now, so I still think that what I have described above is extremely relevant for queries.

[Hangman]

It looks as though the lack of 'Layer' as a 'Layer type' is perhaps a hangover from the original Affinity Photo implementation which doesn't use Layers (Capital 'L') though having said that States do now include Symbols, Tables, Picture Frames and Placed Documents so I'm unsure why Layers weren't added as well but hopefully, they will be in a future release unless there is a specific reason for not including them...

This means, as far as I can tell, the only way to currently achieve what you're looking to, is to use Regex which is simple, works well and allows you to target both individual Layers and the Layer content...

11 hours ago, Bit Arts said:

The names I actually use reflect many and very unique subjects and objects, so even with regex, name matching down the hierarchy is not an option.

Not even with a simple layer name suffix for associated layers?

[Bit Disappointed]

1 hour ago, Hangman said:

It looks as though the lack of 'Layer' as a 'Layer type' is perhaps a hangover from the original Affinity Photo implementation which doesn't use Layers (Capital 'L') though having said that States do now include Symbols, Tables, Picture Frames and Placed Documents so I'm unsure why Layers weren't added as well but hopefully, they will be in a future release unless there is a specific reason for not including them...

This means, as far as I can tell, the only way to currently achieve what you're looking to, is to use Regex which is simple, works well and allows you to target both individual Layers and the Layer content...

Not even with a simple layer name suffix for associated layers?

I can only answer based on my own needs. My biggest concern with layer states is that these functionalities are made based on theoretical assumptions by employees, not user testing and lots of input. The few here from the forum are not enough. We saw it with insertion target, where Serif was "struggling" to imagine a scenario, but in 5 seconds in here alone got "Are you kidding? We need it!". It's way too late to get this input in a beta phase, contrary to what many people think, and it's too little input you get in here. Anyway, it looks half-baked as it appears and works, but let's see how far Serif can get it before release.

No, it's too crazy and extensive to name a huge number of layers based on regex needs. Not a great activity in the creative process either 🙂 But as I said, I think my exact needs can be handled with captured layers that can even be updated, which must be exactly the scenario they are intended for. A query could simply be created so that it doesn't need to be updated when I create new content. Not a disaster in my work - but I cannot answer for other types of customers.

If one day you can assign a shortcut to a query or captured state, then I'm really content.

So I think my feedback on this should give Serif something to think about for the other usage scenarios and what creates business value, which I hope they have an overview of and thought about since layer states came on the agenda for the first "lets code this thing" meetings.

But thanks for the feedback. 🙂 To give you a conceptual idea of how extensive the layer structure I'm using and how tedious a job naming to regex will be, imagine drawing this in an extensive vector version where I need a number of root layers that each have a lot of layers, objects and groups underneath. 

Psssst the image is extreme - but you get the general idea:

[Hangman]

2 hours ago, Bit Arts said:

I can only answer based on my own needs. My biggest concern with layer states is that these functionalities are made based on theoretical assumptions by employees, not user testing and lots of input. The few here from the forum are not enough. We saw it with insertion target, where Serif was "struggling" to imagine a scenario, but in 5 seconds in here alone got "Are you kidding? We need it!". It's way too late to get this input in a beta phase, contrary to what many people think, and it's too little input you get in here. Anyway, it looks half-baked as it appears and works, but let's see how far Serif can get it before release.

Reading @Ash's comments in the initial thread about the addition of Layer States to Designer and Publisher I get the impression Serif have numerous additional features they plan to introduce to enhance its functionality and I'm pretty sure the feedback they receive during Beta testing goes a long way to inform the feature set that is eventually added so hopefully, whatever those additional features turn out to be, they will go a long way towards giving you the feature set you'd ideally like, though, as you mention, it sounds as though Custom States perhaps already give you around 90% of what you need...

Thanks for the image, yes, I can imagine that would involve one complex layer panel...

[Bit Disappointed]

 

Yes @Hangman, I'll make my final judgment around the first release candidate. 🙂

[Bit Disappointed]

On 1/14/2024 at 1:04 AM, Bit Dissapointed said:

Designer 2.4.0 (2222), macOS

I'm trying to use layer states to show or hide layers with sublayers or groups. In other words, complex content.

When I select 'Show hide others', which I am trying to use to create a query that shows one layer and hides others, all sublayers, groups and objects under the layer I actually want to show are deselected.

Are we missing an option like "Include subelements" or whatever it should be labeled.

RC1 and status

As for myself, the current implementation is not usable. The fact that ALL other elements in my entire illustration are hidden when show/hide others is selected, including those that are sub-elements to the layer that matches the criterion, makes it quite unusable.

Then I have to use layer states, which are a snapshot and require updates as an illustration evolves.

[ronnyb]

6 hours ago, Bit Dissapointed said:

As for myself, the current implementation is not usable.

Are you.... a bit disappointed? 🤪

Sorry couldn't help my inner 12 year old...

[Alfred]

58 minutes ago, ronnyb said:

Are you.... a bit disappointed? 🤪

Sorry couldn't help my inner 12 year old...

 

Quote

Bit Dissapointed

a bit disappointed

Spot the difference(s)!!

[Bit Disappointed]

1 hour ago, Alfred said:

Spot the difference(s)!!

A nice typo from Mr. Quick On the Keys here, which we'll have to live with for 30 days, since I discovered it after changing my username 3 times, and can only correct it in a couple of weeks. (Psst Patrick, help)

[Bit Disappointed]

2 hours ago, ronnyb said:

Are you.... a bit disappointed? 🤪

Sorry couldn't help my inner 12 year old...

You scamp, but the name is no coincidence, after all. 🙂 

Yes, a bit disappointed, bordering dissapointed 🤔, which is sad. However, there are things in Affinity that make me a byte disappointed. *ba-dum tss*