Layout Community?

[SusB]

Does anyone know of a community for self-publishers that specificly addresses layout and design for book publishing? I am self-publishing a novel and I'm having problems with the text aligning with the baseline grid. I know this is not an Affinit Publisher problem but a leading problem, as in I don't know what to set the leading to to force the text to align with the grid.

Thanks!

[MikeTO]

Hi SusB, this is that community. This forum is intended for asking questions about how to use Publisher, not just to report problems.

You'll find a full description of using leading and a baseline grid in the free manual I've shared in the forum - the link is in my signature.

But in a nutshell, if you want to use a baseline grid (which is a great idea), set the leading to the same as the baseline grid. e.g., if you're using 10 pt type with a 12 pt baseline grid, then set the leading to "Exactly" and 12 pt.

Cheers

[thomaso]

Perhaps this recent thread is useful ... it attempts to explain, demonstrate or illustrate the relationship between paragraph leading and baseline grid + a possible influence of space before/after in various ways.

[SusB]

Thanks, Mike, a mismatch between the body size and the baseline grid was definitely one of my problems. 

Thomaso, I read the thread but didn't understand the solution. My book uses 12 pt type with a 16 pt leading. Is that my problem? If so, how does one solve that problem. Or should I do what one of the videos did and just click the baseline number until every thing likes up? At least I think that's what was being done.

[MikeTO]

32 minutes ago, SusB said:

Thanks, Mike, a mismatch between the body size and the baseline grid was definitely one of my problems. 

Thomaso, I read the thread but didn't understand the solution. My book uses 12 pt type with a 16 pt leading. Is that my problem? If so, how does one solve that problem. Or should I do what one of the videos did and just click the baseline number until every thing likes up? At least I think that's what was being done.

Baseline grid should equal the leading or else you'll have a mismatch. Using 12 pt type with 16 pt leading should not be a problem.

But the other factor is spacing before and after a paragraph. You have 12 pt type with 16 pt leading so you'd set the baseline grid to 16 pt. But if you haven't changed the default Space After, it will be set to 12 pt. That will result in 16 pt leading between paragraphs - Publisher will add 12 pt space after but since that doesn't align to the grid the baseline of the next paragraph will be 16 pt anyway. So you might as well set Space After to 0 or 16, any value in between will in effect be rounded up to 16. Any value over 16 such as 18 will result in 32 pt spacing, twice of the baseline grid.

Another factor to consider is where the baseline grid should start. By default it will start at the top of the spread but if your text frame is 1 inch (72 pt) below the top of the spread but that's not an even multiple of 16 pt. You might not care about that and it's okay not to care, but it's a factor to consider if you're trying to align the baselines in multiple text frames and art text.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, SusB said:

didn't understand the solution. My book uses 12 pt type with a 16 pt leading. Is that my problem? If so, how does one solve that problem.

What exactly is your problem? What do you want to achieve and what does not work as expected?

The Baseline Grid overrides the leading, so the leading value doesn't really matter (unless it is set to a value larger than the baseline grid).

You can have a baseline grid for the entire page and/or individually for selected text frames. For tests / comparison experiences the latter may be easier. Also note the text frame option for the baseline start (within the frame) and the additional option for the Vertical Position / advance minimum (below set for the right text frame to 14 pt, same value as the baseline grid for the left frame)…(displayed in the screenshot as "0 pt" because the right frame is not selected but the left to show its baseline grid settings).

Furthermore you can de-activate the baseline grid for a paragraph style (Paragraph Panel > Baseline Grid) and you can also exclude a text frame from being affected by any baseline grid (Text Frame panel > General).

Last but not least you can override the paragraph leading in the Character Panel. This may confuse if done accidentally and is required for specific situations only. Its use doesn't make sense in combination with a baseline grid, so leave it at its default value, displayed in round brackets, e.g. "(12 pt)".

With this rich set of options and flexibility it maybe more useful for the beginning to modify very few settings only (e.g. leading and grid) to avoid confusion caused by the other possible parameters (e.g. grid start position / vertical text advance / space before or after).

[Palatino]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

… to avoid confusion caused by the other possible parameters (e.g. grid start position / vertical text advance / space before or after).

That is correct. An example to show what else you can consider (a design grid is a science in itself):

[SusB]

Thanks, everyone. I shall struggle on, more fortified with knowledge than before.

[SusB]

Sorry to be a pill, but I still don't get baselines. I read Mike's book about baselines and I obviously don't get it. I have a document that is 9 inches tall. I created a baseline of 16 pts. The leading for the body text is 16 pts. The font is 12 pts. This is my leading page:

 

This is what it looks like:

What am I missing here? I do see that the Edit Text Style window says the Base + Font size = 12 pt, but I don't understand why that is. All my sources say that all you have to do is make the baseline the same as the leading, and they are the same.

Help please!

[thomaso]

Your text looks like size = leading (e.g. 12/12, not 12/16).

Make sure …
… this style "Body" is assigned to this text,
… the Text Styles Panel says in its upper text field "Body" without a '+' symbol,
… the character leading override shows in round brackets: "(16 pt)",
… the Text Frame Panel has the option "Ignore Baseline Grid" unchecked.

If this doesn't fix it: Can you show a screenshot of this text frame + your entire screen, including the related panels with their relevant sections: Context Toolbar + Layers Panel with this text frame selected + Text Styles panel with style 'Body' + Text Frame Panel with section 'General' + Paragraph Panel with 'Spacing' and 'Baseline Grid' unfolded.

If "Base" is displayed with a + symbol then the current style (e.g. "Body") is based on the style "Base" but defined with some differences. In this case it says your "Base" is saved with another size than 12 pt (apart from the further deviations mentioned in this field).

[MikeTO]

As Thomaso wrote, ensure Ignore Baseline Grid is deselected in the Text Frame panel but also that Use Independent Baseline Grid is deselected. And in the Paragraph panel for all of the text, ensure that Align to Baseline Grid is selected.

  

[thomaso]

5 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

but also that Use Independent Baseline Grid is deselected. And in the Paragraph panel for all of the text, ensure that Align to Baseline Grid is selected

Note, if the frame would have a separate grid activated this would be displayed in the screenshot + the definition for "Body" says "Align to Baseline Grid: on" and "Leading: 16 pt".

[SusB]

I'm still confused, but I did everything you said about turning on and off the baseline grid in various panels (although it's beyond me why some are clicked and others aren't), but it worked!

As for the font, leading and baseline, those were set as 12, 16, 16. I just recreated the document and those read 12, "No change" and 16. I thought, oh, the "No change must refer back to the baseline. But no. I change the leading to 12, to 16, to 12, and it made no difference. If the leading and baseline have to be the same number, then why is there no change? Never mind. Don't answer that. I can already predict I won't understand it.

Thanks everybody! I'll forge on!

[Catshill]

It might help to think about why you are using a baseline grid. For me it makes body text of documents consistent across pages and frames (I rarely use columns). I don’t use a BG for headings, pull quotes etc but I do consider their font size and leading to ensure it works with the body text.

I first get the font size and leading right for my document with BG off. Once it looks right, I apply the BG to the body style and adjust the setting as described above to ensure it works with my body style. Adjusting the BG parameters last so it matches the base style, rather than the other way round, is the best way to do it.

[thomaso]

7 hours ago, SusB said:

I change the leading to 12, to 16, to 12, and it made no difference. If the leading and baseline have to be the same number, then why is there no change? Never mind. Don't answer that. I can already predict I won't understand it.

I'd predict you are able to understand it. There are "just" a bunch of dependencies that you need to consider and exclude/avoid or fix.

It may help to start a document with an empty Text Styles panel and prevent a style from being dependent on another style. Your last screenshots show that your style "Body" is set to base on the style "Base". You can get rid of this dependency by choosing for "Body" the option "Based on: No Style".

If a style or frame does not react on a change of the paragraph leading then it has quite likely the character property "Leading Override" set to a different value than "Auto".

If a text does not react on a baseline grid although its paragraph style has activated then this style either|and|or its parent style has the option "Align to Baseline Grid" unchecked | the option "ignore" ticked for its text frame. Below in yellow: settings to avoid to achieve a leading as expected and to make a baseline grid work.

Nevertheless, we can achieve an identical design entirely without using a baseline grid. Then it requires more consideration for a bunch of properties being set accordingly. In that case the style dependencies can be helpful rather than disturbing.

[SusB]

Thanks! In your first screen shot, you ave the paragraph panel with the Leading 30 pt and the space after the paragraph set to 15 pts. I don't understand the siginicance of this difference. I have a leading of 16 pt and a space-after setting of 6 pts. Is this a problem? Should the 6 pts be a multiple of or division of 16?

 

[thomaso]

37 minutes ago, SusB said:

I have a leading of 16 pt and a space-after setting of 6 pts. Is this a problem? Should the 6 pts be a multiple of or division of 16?

It could be easier to handle. But this depends on your individual goals + their priorities. If you want to achieve a max. number of common lines across various text frames (similar to the use of a baseline grid) then it helps to choose the leading + space after/before accordingly and with a small common integer divisor.

In my example (l.30, s.15) the space was a simple, integer divisor of the leading (30 : 15 = 2) and thus two paragraphs together create with their spaces after one new line and thus 2 more paragraphs have the next matching line after the first paragraph.

Whereas with your values (l.16, s.6) it needs nine paragraphs to achieve the next common line after the first paragraph and space after: If I calculate correct the smallest common, integer divisor of 16 and 6 = 8. So, the next common line after the first paragraph needs 8 more paragraphs.

[SusB]

Here is the Body style with 12 pt type, 16 pt leading and a 16 pt baseline grid. 

Note that it does not sit on the baseline grid. Now, here is the next page, using the same Body Text style. (I highlighted the paragraphs on both pages and made changes to ensure that they all land on the baseline.) Notice that this page lands on the baseline grid. 

Plus, the text is too dense. I want more space above and below the paragraphs, but nothing seems to work!

[SusB]

I took your advice and removed the baseline grid. I can figure it out without it. 

Thanks for all your help! I DO appreciate it!

[Old Bruce]

I would use the Baseline Grid On only in special situations. Such as I have Space Before / After that is not the same as the leading, and I want/need the last line of the text on Page 4 to be at the same height as the last line on page 5. This will effectively override the Space Before/After. The more common situation is when I have headings in a text flow that would break the rigid 16 points you have set for your Body text Paragraph Style. I would turn on Baseline Grid for the body text, snapping it to the grid and have it off for the heading Paragraph Style. 

Those examples are for when I want/need the text to line up at the bottom of the pages, the Headings being a different size may cause problems for this.

Grab some Books, Magazines, Newspapers and recreate their layouts in Publisher. All you need is three or four pages. There are many ways to do a variety things, try as many as you can come up with. Experiment.

[thomaso]

17 hours ago, SusB said:

Here is the Body style with 12 pt type, 16 pt leading and a 16 pt baseline grid. (…) Note that it does not sit on the baseline grid.

Then either the text frame has "Ignore Baseline Grid" activated or/and the paragraph style has "Align to Baseline Grid" inactive. You screenshots of text only without the related panels aren't really useful for the forum because screenshots without panels don't give us a chance to see all of your related settings.

17 hours ago, SusB said:

I want more space above and below the paragraphs, but nothing seems to work!

As mentioned before, a baseline grid kind of overrides the leading or space before/after. With an active baseline grid the space before/after will always be forced to the baseline distance or to multiples of it while the values you set for space before/after will be mainly ignored. (respectively rounded to the next value within the grid)

So, for instance with a baseline grid of 16 pt the leading will be 16 and the space before/after can either be 0 or 16 or multiples of 16 … but never a value in between. Whereas a baseline grid of 8 pt would allow you still to have a leading of 16 but a space before/after of 8 pt. … Note in the examples below that the leading remains identical while only the space after varies.

16 hours ago, SusB said:

I can figure it out without it. 

To me it is still unclear what you actually would like to figure out. Do you "just" want to experience what the baseline grid and the other parameters do – or do you have a specific design in mind but don't know how to get there? – And, for what purpose do you want to use a baseline grid?

[Palatino]

7 hours ago, thomaso said:

As mentioned before, a baseline grid kind of overrides the leading or space before/after. With an active baseline grid the space before/after will always be forced to the baseline distance or to multiples of it while the values you set for space before/after will be mainly ignored.

That's all you need to know and it's perfectly logical from a typographical point of view.