Rasterizing

[AndyV]

I have a series of drawings for an animation. I make TIF files of them, and in DaVinci Resolve, when you have a sequential group of tif files (picture-01.tif, picture-02.tif, picture-03.tif, etc) it automatically groups them together as a "TIF sequence and you have a little movie clip.

I had to clean up the background of each drawing and place a "green screen" (a bright green background) behind them that I can key out later.

So I did that work for awhile in Photoshop but decided to do it in Affinity, and that's when the trouble began. I was doing the exact same processes (lassoing out as much background as I could, filling it in with green, then painting the green along the edges of all the characters.

The final image looks like:

Scene3-People-40.tiff

But when I brought them into Resolve they looked like:

Scene3-People-40.tif

Aside from the fact that that shape around the characters was only the first step and that the green was first filled in where the grey is (which is weird enough) that's not my question. Nor is my question why this same weird looking image looks correct with a completely green background throughout. (In Apple Preview however it has a grey background. Hopefully it appears to you like this as well.)

The solution to getting that image to look correct in Resolve was to rasterize and re-export the files. What I don't understand is why or how Affinity threw out what was initially a rasterized image to begin with, let alone wouldn't export it as rasterized without my going through a specific rasterizing step.

Aside from it being different how Photoshop works, and an annoying way to learn that I had to specifically rasterize, I don't understand the reasoning. AND I don't understand how I can see ahead of time that any given file even needs to be rasterized. Maybe I missed a signal but I don't see it now that I'm looking for it

[Dan C]

Hi @AndyV,

Sorry to hear you're having trouble!

8 hours ago, AndyV said:

The solution to getting that image to look correct in Resolve was to rasterize and re-export the files. What I don't understand is why or how Affinity threw out what was initially a rasterized image to begin with, let alone wouldn't export it as rasterized without my going through a specific rasterizing step.

Unfortunately it's hard for me to be certain without a better understanding of your exact workflow and export settings from Affinity - as if I reimport the .tiff file provided into Affinity, or view this in other apps the full green background is present as expected and part of the singular background image layer - so I'm currently unsure why the import result in Resolve was different:

Can you please confirm the exact steps you took with this file in Affinity, that produced these incorrect results within Resolve? If possible a screen recording showing your workflow can help me to assist further.

If you're unsure how to take a screen recording, please check out our FAQ linked below - 

Many thanks in advance!

[AndyV]

A screen recording will take too long. It's taking me nearly an hour to edit these pictures down. What I should probably be asking is how to cut that time. A friend just turned me on to Adobe Firefly, and when I put the picture through that, it pops out the background in a splt second.

Anyway, as for the process, the best I can remember is

1) I roughly do lasso around all the characters as close as patience will allow

2) I fill that area in with the green.

3) I painstakingly paint (with the green) around the edges of each character.

4) And voila, an hour later I need a drink (at the present time I will have 360 drawings to edit like this. I am up to drawing 48.)

 

The key step is the first because that is the weird shape I'm seeing. The main question is why that continues to survive at all because it is eventually blended with the brush work which overlaps that shape as I go through it.

[carl123]

10 hours ago, AndyV said:

The final image looks like:

Scene3-People-40.tiff 4.33 MB · 5 downloads

But when I brought them into Resolve they looked like:

Scene3-People-40.tif 5.88 MB · 5 downloads

I'm not seeing any difference in those 2 images.

Are you sure the second one you uploaded was the right one you wanted us to see?

[Dan C]

3 minutes ago, AndyV said:

The key step is the first because that is the weird shape I'm seeing. The main question is why that continues to survive at all because it is eventually blended with the brush work which overlaps that shape as I go through it.

This likely depends on the layer setup for your document within Affinity and the export settings you are using - hence my request for a screen recording, though I do understand this is not always easy to provide.

Can you attach a copy of your image before the background has been removed, so I can test further with this here and advise with my suggestive workflow to speed things up for you?

1 minute ago, carl123 said:

I'm not seeing any difference in those 2 images.

When re-importing both images into Affinity Photo, they appear the same for me - however the first '.tiff' file shows as following in Windows Photo Viewer:

Which would appear as though the a 'clipping path' is being used for the image, though I'm unsure why this is only shown with certain image editors/viewers and my reasoning behind trying to see OPs workflow and Layer structure before exporting.

[Dan C]

3 minutes ago, Dan C said:

however the first '.tiff' file shows as following in Windows Photo Viewer:

Which would appear as though the a 'clipping path' is being used for the image

On further inspection of both these .TIF/.TIFF files, the EXIF data shows Photoshop CS2 (Windows) as the software that has written the file, not Affinity Photo - therefore I suspect that there is a PS 'Clipping Path' embedded in the TIF, which Resolve is interpreting.

Therefore these do not appear to be images exported from Affinity Photo, and is the reason why this full background matte is shown when opening either image within Affinity.

As above I'm still happy to provide workflow suggestions @AndyV if you'd like to provide a copy of the source file before background removal, but from the files/information provided I believe the difference in these imported images into Resolve is not controlled or caused by Affinity.

[AndyV]

28 minutes ago, carl123 said:

I'm not seeing any difference in those 2 images.

Are you sure the second one you uploaded was the right one you wanted us to see?

You know what? I think that's part of the problem! In some programs I can see it, and in other programs I can't!

I uploaded after previewing in Apple Preview. Maybe try to view it there?

[AndyV]

15 minutes ago, Dan C said:

On further inspection of both these .TIF/.TIFF files, the EXIF data shows Photoshop CS2 (Windows) as the software that has written the file, not Affinity Photo - therefore I suspect that there is a PS 'Clipping Path' embedded in the TIF, which

Resolve is interpreting.

Therefore these do not appear to be images exported from Affinity Photo, and is the reason why this full background matte is shown when opening either image within Affinity.

As above I'm still happy to provide workflow suggestions @AndyV if you'd like to provide a copy of the source file before background removal, but from the files/information provided I believe the difference in these imported images into Resolve is not controlled or caused by Affinity.

You got me! But I swear I wasn't trying to pull a fast one. There are 16 images in this sequence and only the last four or so I did completely in Affinity. I think I've gotten totally confused as to which is which.

I don't want to bother you about a problem out of an ancient photo editing program. (It's on a machine with XP the use of which I could explain but would bore you or have you rolling your eyes). But suffice to say, I edited 36 other images like this using the same workflow and didn't run into the problem before now.

I could understand this happening if I were creating paths, but I wasn't. I just can't figure out why it is arising now. The only change was using Affinity on some of the images.

Very sorry to post this here at least until I figure out that Affinity was or was not the problem!  And again, Affinity resolved the problem through rasterizing everything. So I guess all's well that ends well.

I'm going to have a lot more work to do and if it happens again, I'll post again. But I will soon post a question about background removal for these drawings. If there is an answer to that that can speed up my work, that would be tremendous.

 

[Old Bruce]

@AndyV, I noticed that your "Green Screen" Green is 4, 244, 4 in the RGB colour panel. Is that what Davinci resolve needs it to be? Or is this another artifact of Photoshop's workflow?

[AndyV]

Dan, thanks for your reply. This is getting weirder and weirder. I guess it's boiling down to why it is getting embedded as a clipping path at all. I never saved the selection as a path.

I had to rescan a page for you to have something unedited. If you want to change the subject to something like how you would go about removing the background in Affinity, please do! That's what is really driving me crazy. It's taking an hour per drawing to clean out the background.

I moved my work over to Affinity after getting frustrated with the time it was taking in my Photoshop. The thought being that maybe the Magic Wand is more advanced by now. The problem I think is that I myself am not more advanced by now. I have not been able to get my head around the "Refine" aspect of the tool and I think therein might be the solution. I don't know.

All I know is that when I popped an image like this on the Adobe Firefly page, it popped out the background as soon as I clicked the  "Remove" button. But AI is just using the same tools as anyone else.....I think.

testscan.tif

[AndyV]

7 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

@AndyV, I noticed that your "Green Screen" Green is 4, 244, 4 in the RGB colour panel. Is that what Davinci resolve needs it to be? Or is this another artifact of Photoshop's workflow?

No. It was just a slightly random choice. I think I originally grabbed it from a frame of a video that had a green screen in it. I could use most any color really.

But one thing I realized in using it for these characters is that when I use that color as a keyer, it ruins any of the yellows and greens in the image! The lady on the left has her dress go grey, and the lady on the right turns orange. I posted THAT problem on the Resolve forum where someone set me straight. He had the same problem with muppet characters and had to use a blue screen for Kermit and a green screen for another character and couldn't have both characters appear in the same scene together!

For this work, I don't really care that the colors change. They certainly aren't well known as muppets.  

 

I might add, that I'm keying out the background because there is going to be other stuff going on behind them, and it gives me some freedom on how to arrange everyone, and much easier to draw if they are drawn separately.

[carl123]

15 minutes ago, AndyV said:

change the subject to something like how you would go about removing the background in Affinity,

I think you just need to master the "Selection Brush Tool" and specifically the Refine (dialog) process using the Matte Brush on these types of images

This quick test took 3 minutes

To do it properly about 5-10 minutes max

 

 

[AndyV]

11 minutes ago, carl123 said:

I think you just need to master the "Selection Brush Tool" and specifically the Refine (dialog) process using the Matte Brush on these types of images

This quick test took 3 minutes

To do it properly about 5-10 minutes max

.....

aiyiyiyiyiyiyiyiyiyiyi  You're better than AI! Need a job?

I will do as you suggest. I guess I'm kind of a one trick pony. I've never even looked at Selection Brush. I have repeatedly tried to understand the Refine process and yes, read the manual about it, but haven't yet gotten my head around it.

 

I can see where it waded into lighter areas of three ladies face, hair and ears. But if I could get as far as you did in a few minutes that would be only a few more seconds of repair work.

Sigh. Back to the drawing screen.

 

 

 

[carl123]

1 minute ago, AndyV said:

I can see where it waded into lighter areas of three ladies face, hair and ears.

Yes, I saw them too. As I said it was just a quick test to see if the Selection Brush Tool was right for your images (it was)

Whilst still in the Refine dialog I would have then zoomed in all around the image to make sure it was perfect (adjusting as required)

[AndyV]

Thanks Carl, you've given me some serious homework to do, but also some hope!

[AndyV]

Carl!!!

The Selection Brush is fantastic. Thank you so much for pointing me in its direction. I knew it existed but my narrow mind just didn't grasp it for this work. This will save me about 45 minutes of work per drawing.