Standard values for line / paragraph spacing?

[Benfinity]

I searched the forum all over, but couldn't find a related topic. So I ask here:

• What exactly are Affinity's default values for line and paragraph spacing
• And is there a possibility to change them (set my own desired values to be chosen as [standard])?

Context:

My wife is working with Adobe products, professionally, and she says the standard line spacing (for example) is 120% of the font size. That seems quite fitting to me.
But every time I insert a text box for a little content in any of my projects, the line spacing is something around 165% at [standard] ([no change] or [default], respectively) or at 100%, which might be a little tight in some cases. (Sometimes, it's even some value completely off of any reasonable size.)

I'd like to know if there's some kind of "hidden menu" or method that can set the default values for mentioned spacings (or maybe any default value) to my own needs?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Ben

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, Benfinity said:

• What exactly are Affinity's default values for line and paragraph spacing

Line spacing: The font designer determines the appropriate normal behavior, and from what I've seen the Affinity applications base the default Leading on the font characteristics specified by the font designer, as it changes depending on the font you select. I don't think you can change that, except that if you use Text Styles, then you can of course specify your desired Leading just as you can specify your desired Font. You can also set those for [No Style]. 

But if you change the font the Leading will probably revert to what the font designer considered appropriate.

Paragraph spacing: Affinity uses 12 pt Space After the paragraph by default, I think. You can also change that.

To make changes like this, create a Text Frame. Add some text and set it like you like. Select it. Then Edit > Defaults > Synchronize from Selection followed by Edit > Defaults > Save.

[Oufti]

46 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

To make changes like this, create a Text Frame. Add some text and set it like you like. Select it. Then (1) Edit > Defaults > Synchronize from Selection followed by (2) Edit > Defaults > Save.

@Benfinity:

Step (1) will make your selection the Default value for this document only.

Step (2) will make your selection the Default value for any new document.

Details: https://affinity.help/publisher2/en-US.lproj/pages/ObjectControl/objectDefaults.html 

 

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Benfinity said:

• What exactly are Affinity's default values for line and paragraph spacing

The default for leading is 120% (dynamic, auto-adjusting with font size), the space before is 0, space after 12 pt.

Apart from the mentioned app defaults (via menu Edit) you also can save a custom set of certain Text Styles as Default:

[Oufti]

11 hours ago, thomaso said:

The default for leading is 120% (dynamic, auto-adjusting with font size)

Even if 120% of the body size is the default leading value used in Word or perhaps Pages (P.S. No, Pages does like Affinity : changes according the font, with the same values), I don't observe that with Affinity v2.
It varies, depending on the font chosen. The largest majority set [default] leading at 100%, and for the rest it depends. 

Here are the values for the only 4% of my fonts not using 100% leading as default: 

That confirms this: 

13 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Line spacing: The font designer determines the appropriate normal behavior, and from what I've seen the Affinity applications base the default Leading on the font characteristics specified by the font designer, as it changes depending on the font you select.

 

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Oufti said:

Even if 120% of the body size is the default leading value used in Word or perhaps Pages, I don't observe that with Affinity v2.
It varies, depending on the font chosen.

What "default" do you / the OP / me have in mind? I referred to that default which is stored as factory default in the apps, it is one specific font + leading.

But thanks to you I must correct my previous post. Obviously I had forgotten that I customized 'my' default leading in V1 APub to 120% (= 14.4 pt) (apparently to match it the/my default of InDesign). – I did not alter this default in AD + APh + an old APub beta, where the / this default leading is 12.4 pt and not set as percentage ("% Height") but with the leading menu item "Default".

So there are two terms "default": the one in the leading menu, named "Default" – versus the one in the Edit menu, named "Defaults" (plural s) while both are used for the [No style] definition "by default". Not to mention the "Default" (singular) in the Text Style panel. – Sorry for confusing them.

[walt.farrell]

38 minutes ago, thomaso said:

What "default" do you / the OP / me have in mind? I referred to that default which is stored as factory default in the apps, it is one specific font + leading.

There is no one default leading for the Affinity applications. It is determined dynamically when you specify the font and the font size.

For example, in Publisher 2.2.1:

[thomaso]

10 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

There is no one default leading for the Affinity applications.

Thanks, that is what @Oufti pointed out, too. On the other hand there is definitely "one default leading for the Affinity applications":

It is saved in the app's "Defaults" and the Text Style "Default" / "[No Style]" where it is defined as one specific font and leading.

[Benfinity]

Hi @ all!

And thanks already for the quick and numerous replies.

I'm not familiar with all the English terms (neither am I with the German ones). But as far as I understand by now, "leading" is the spacing between lines at 100 %, determined by the designer via "font height". That's why (I guess) you can correct for it in the Font panel.

"Line spacing" though, is the distance between baselines in a paragraph. It is independent from the leading, and you can change it in the Paragraph panel. (same accounts for paragraph spacing)

I will therefore test the advice(s) considering the default styles, and then give some feedback on it.

Corrections of possible misunderstandings are welcome!

Good night, everyone.

[walt.farrell]

34 minutes ago, thomaso said:

It is saved in the app's "Defaults" and the Text Style "Default" / "[No Style]" where it is defined as one specific font and leading.

I think you may mean one specific font and font size, but "leading" is probably also correct as you can set the other characteristics to go along with that (basically everything in the Character and Paragraph panels).

I've never tried setting a specific leading by percentage to see if it would apply when the user changes font or font size. More experimentation to do

[Oufti]

3 hours ago, Benfinity said:

[…] as far as I understand by now, "leading" is the spacing between lines at 100 %, determined by the designer via "font height". That's why (I guess) you can correct for it in the Font panel.

"Line spacing" though, is the distance between baselines in a paragraph. It is independent from the leading, and you can change it in the Paragraph panel. (same accounts for paragraph spacing)

 

No. Actually, Leading and Line spacing are equivalent. Both mean the distance between baselines. 

You normally change it in the Paragraph panel or the Contextual toolbar. 

++++++++++++

In old time of metal typography, a body size was something physical: a letter of 12 points was a block of 1/6", whatever the design on it.

In that time, you set lines one above another (for example, you composed 10 on 10 or 12 on 12), like this:

But you could also add some extra space between lines by adding strips of metal between characters lines (say, you composed 10 on 12 or 12 on 14). This is what was named 'leading'. 

Like this : 

 

Nowadays, computer time, letters don't have real height anymore — Garamond 12 points and Arial 12 points are not the same… —, but their designers can still define what should be normal spacing between two baselines. For the majority of fonts, this is designed as 100% of the body size (12/12) but there are some fonts with special values (like in the table I posted above).

Affinity (and Apple Pages) use this information to define how many points will be the default line spacing, where Word and InDesign don't care and always use the body size multiplied by 120%, whatever the font chosen. 

3 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

I've never tried setting a specific leading by percentage to see if it would apply when the user changes font or font size. More experimentation to do

For myself, I usually only use "Exactly" or "% Height" line spacing (the last one is based on the body size) ; I don't trust "Multiples", "Default" or "At least" values, that can vary if the font in use is changed.

From Help pages:

Quote

Spacing

• Leading—controls the distance between text baselines (vertical gap between lines) within the paragraph. Select from the pop-up menu.
  Options include:
  • Default—sets the line spacing to the font's default (i.e., single).
  • Exactly—sets a fixed spacing (other text attributes are ignored for line spacing purposes). 
  • % Height—sets spacing based on a percentage of the text's size. 
  • At Least—sets a minimum spacing (actual line spacing may increase depending on other text attributes). 
  • Multiple—controls line spacing as a portion of the default. 

https://affinity.help/publisher2/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/paragraphPanel.html

Multiples is based on the varying Default, as shown here: 
(Grid lines are 10 pt spaced for reference.)

Look how Default or Multiple ×1,5 can change, depending on the font chosen (e.g. Brill and Garamond for two extremes).

[kenmcd]

Most fonts these days the vertical metrics defaults are not 100% (commonly 120-130%).
And the vertical metrics are going to vary based on the OS, and some settings in the fonts.
For example:
You are using macOS so I am guessing the "Helvetica" you show as 100% is the one from the Mac.
The Mac vertical metrics in that font are set to 100%.
The Windows vertical metrics in that font are set to ~118%.
The Typo vertical metrics are ~95% (which is really odd).
And since "Use Typo metrics" is set to Off, the Mac and Windows metrics are supposed to be  used.
Really old fonts, and OS supplied fonts are not good indicators of "most" fonts.
Google Fonts requires the Typo vertical metrics be set between 120-130% (and Use Typo metrics On).
And that is also typically what you will find in modern commercial fonts.
But it varies by the type of font.
Text fonts are pretty predictable.
In Helvetica Neue LT W1G the Typo metrics are set to 120%.
But display fonts can be all over the place.
For example in Gabriola the Typo metrics are set to 170%.

Most modern fonts have "Use Typo metrics" set to On.
So those fonts should have the same "default" vertical metrics on both Mac and Windows.
But for fonts which have "Use Typo metrics" set to Off, so then the "default" can vary by OS.

When Use Typo metrics set to On, APub default leading appears to be exactly what is in the font.
But when Use Typo metrics set to Off, I am not sure what they are doing.
The "default" is not the settings I see inside the font (e.g. Arial).

Affinity appears to respect the "Use Typo metrics" setting in the font (unless that has changed).
InDesign ignores the font setting and always uses the Typo metrics.
That helps to avoid cross-platform re-flow issues.
Affinity should do this too.

 

[Benfinity]

9 hours ago, Oufti said:

No. Actually, Leading and Line spacing are equivalent. Both mean the distance between baselines. 

You normally change it in the Paragraph panel or the Contextual toolbar. 

++++++++++++

In old time of metal typography, a body size was something physical: a letter of 12 points was a block of 1/6", whatever the design on it.

In that time, you set lines one above another (for example, you composed 10 on 10 or 12 on 12), like this:

But you could also add some extra space between lines by adding strips of metal between characters lines (say, you composed 10 on 12 or 12 on 14). This is what was named 'leading'. 

Like this : 

 

Nowadays, computer time, letters don't have real height anymore — Garamond 12 points and Arial 12 points are not the same… —, but their designers can still define what should be normal spacing between two baselines. For the majority of fonts, this is designed as 100% of the body size (12/12) but there are some fonts with special values (like in the table I posted above).

Affinity (and Apple Pages) use this information to define how many points will be the default line spacing, where Word and InDesign don't care and always use the body size multiplied by 120%, whatever the font chosen. 

For myself, I usually only use "Exactly" or "% Height" line spacing (the last one is based on the body size) ; I don't trust "Multiples", "Default" or "At least" values, that can vary if the font in use is changed.

From Help pages:

Multiples is based on the varying Default, as shown here: 
(Grid lines are 10 pt spaced for reference.)

Look how Default or Multiple ×1,5 can change, depending on the font chosen (e.g. Brill and Garamond for two extremes).

But leading is a font-based thing, while line spacing is a property of paragraphs. It may be the same in the end, but can we at least agree on that? 😅

[walt.farrell]

10 hours ago, Oufti said:

For myself, I usually only use "Exactly" or "% Height" line spacing (the last one is based on the body size) ; I don't trust "Multiples", "Default" or "At least" values, that can vary if the font in use is changed.

 

8 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Most fonts these days the vertical metrics defaults are not 100% (commonly 120-130%).
And the vertical metrics are going to vary based on the OS, and some settings in the fonts.
For example:
You are using macOS so I am guessing the "Helvetica" you show as 100% is the one from the Mac.
The Mac vertical metrics in that font are set to 100%.
The Windows vertical metrics in that font are set to ~118%.

I think these Mac vs Windows differences are known to cause problems if users move projects between Mac and Windows systems, and have allowed the the Leading to default. I've seen recommendations here in the forums to always use Exactly to avoid such problems. (Now that I have both macOS and Windows I may discover that on my own  )

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Benfinity said:

But leading is a font-based thing, while line spacing is a property of paragraphs. It may be the same in the end, but can we at least agree on that? 😅

Such an "agreement" may work in this thread (where it, on the other hand, appears not necessary any more) but may fail at other spots. Thus it appears useful to use / search for the 'official', 'correct' terms (in case they exists).

In former type setting with physical, 3-dimensional objects, every letter had a minimum height, defined by its material (a rectangular cuboid 'body' made of wood or). Unfortunately I could not find yet the English term(s) for the area above & below a letter that is not ascender & descender – while this area had defined a minimum leading (line spacing) for a certain letter and font.

The figures below name this area in German "Kegel", "Kegelhöhe", "Achselfläche", "Schriftkegel" or "Schriftgrad" (= modern 'font size' ?), while, unfortunately in the figure it is unclear how it distinguishes from ascender and descender (does the illustrated font have capitals only?). Additionally it appears that certain letters could exceed their "Kegel" (their basic, cuboid block / 'body') which could result visually in a reduced minimum leading.

With photo typesetting this area above/below a letter ("Kegel", "Kegelhöhe", "Fleisch") lost its meaning and vertically overlapping lines became possible. In digital type this area appears to be defined within a font individually and actually arbitrary as "by design", as that virtual "Default" leading which confuses in this thread.

[R C-R]

11 hours ago, Benfinity said:

But leading is a font-based thing, while line spacing is a property of paragraphs. It may be the same in the end, but can we at least agree on that? 😅

Both are properties that can be applied to paragraphs, but leading has an additional default font-based property that can be used as is or adjusted on a per paragraph basis, or overridden on a line-by-line basis.

So they are not quite the same thing.

[MikeTO]

21 hours ago, kenmcd said:

The "default" is not the settings I see inside the font (e.g. Arial).

On macOS Affinity uses hhea line gap as a percentage of em size to determine default leading. The value for hhea line gap in the Arial included with macOS matches Affinity's defaults - line gap of 67 with em of 2048 is 3.271% and 12 pt type multiplied by 1.3271 is 12.393 pt default leading which is what Affinity uses. I don't know if the Windows version uses the line gap value in hhea, too, or if it uses the typo line gap value, but it would be nice to know. Arial is a good test case because there's such a difference between the hhea and typo line gaps. Its typo line gap is 307 which would yield 13.799 pt default leading. Verdana is another good test case - hhea line gap is 0 while typo line gap is 202 with an em size of 2048. So with 12 pt type, default leading would be 12 with hhea line gap and 13.184 if typo line gap was used.

For those who have glazed over, avoid default leading and use a fixed percentage or an exact value. In the old days fonts didn't include a default value so apps used 120% leading as their default which worked well. While I think it's admirable that Affinity uses the font's default leading to respect the font designer's decisions, if hhea line gap is 0 it wasn't a design choice but an oversight so it would be more useful to fall back to typo line gap and if that is also 0 to fall back to the 120% rule.

I surveyed a selection of fonts from Monotype, Linotype, ITC, Adobe, Google, and Microsoft, and found hhea line gap was set to 0 in 57% of the ones I looked at. Given that so many fonts from leading foundries still have hhea line gap set to 0, the default leading feature in Publisher feels a bit broken to me.

[MikeTO]

Oh duh, of course the Windows version is using the same hhea line gap approach because given how many fonts have differing hhea and typo line gap settings there would be howls as users. moved Affinity documents between Mac and Windows. 50% of the fonts I checked had differing hhea and typo line gap values.

[walt.farrell]

10 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I surveyed a selection of fonts from Monotype, Linotype, ITC, Adobe, Google, and Microsoft, and found hhea line gap was set to 0 in 57% of the ones I looked at. Given that so many fonts from leading foundries still have hhea line gap set to 0, the default leading feature in Publisher feels a bit broken to me.

Is that why the Affinity applications use 12 pt Leading for so many fonts when setting 12 pt text?

[MikeTO]

4 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Is that why the Affinity applications use 12 pt Leading for so many fonts when setting 12 pt text?

Yes. Fonts in the PostScript days didn't include a leading or line spacing value and Aldus chose a 120% rule for PageMaker that everybody followed because it was a good idea. InDesign still does this although it lets you customize it.

Font technology improved but fonts are messy and two options were added to define a leading or line spacing option. I don't know the history of how that came about but I believe that Windows has generally used the value in the /typo table while Mac used the value in the /hhea table. Affinity uses the /hhea value and ignores the /typo value.

Font designers aren't usually very good at setting these values because Adobe ignores them. Some set it for /typo, some set it for /hhea, some set it for both but with different values. For example, here is a table with values for some fonts I checked. You'll note that Line Gap / Em Size produces a value that exactly matches Affinity's default leading. I believe that Microsoft really did intend for Verdana and Georgia to have about 110% leading but because they left the /hhea table value blank it has 100% leading in Affinity.

But then look at Arial. The /typo table value yields 115% leading which would make sense as a default the /hhea value yields 103% which is a terrible default. But then look at Helvetica and Helvetica Neue, both from Linotype. The original Helvetica has no value for /hhea and the /typo value yields 106% - very tight but maybe they wanted this? The Neue version yields 102.8% leading for both tables - I seriously doubt the font designer wanted that tight of leading by default. It's hard to know what was intended but all of this is bad.

As I said, I think honouring the font designer's intentions is better than ignoring these values but you can see why Adobe continues to ignore them. This is what I would do:

1. If /hhea line gap = 0 or < 9.5% of em size, use /typo line gap
2. If /typo line gap = 0 or < 9.5% of em size, use 120%

I suggest ignoring values that are less than 9.5% of em size because those aren't useful defaults and likely are mistakes by font designers who tested only with Adobe apps. This approach would yield a useful default in all cases, either what the font designer intended or a reasonable default value. It would be far better than no leading or 103% leading.

In the meantime, I suggest never using Default leading since it generally yields poor results. Stick to an exact value or your own percentage.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

In the meantime, I suggest never using Default leading since it generally yields poor results.

If the work is not meant for commercial use and/or the default looks ok & does not affect legibility appreciably, is there still any good reason not to use it?

[MikeTO]

21 minutes ago, R C-R said:

If the work is not meant for commercial use and/or the default looks ok & does not affect legibility appreciably, is there still any good reason not to use it?

It depends on the font and whether you like how it looks. For example, Adobe Myriad Pro (left) has 120% default leading and looks great. Linotype Helvetica (right) doesn't have a default value so Publisher uses 100% leading and I think it looks far too tight. Some very common fonts from Monotype, Linotype, Microsoft, and Google have poor or no default leading so you'll get poor results with the Default option. If your fonts have a good default leading value then of course you can use it but most users don't understand how it works so I just advise avoiding the Default option. Note that Multiple works as a multiple of the font's default so it will have the same issue.

This is a screenshot I made for my manual since I happened to be writing about Leading this week and was testing out all the options.

[Oufti]

1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

While I think it's admirable that Affinity uses the font's default leading to respect the font designer's decisions, if is 0 it wasn't a design choice but an oversight so it would be more useful to fall back to typo line gap and if that is also 0 to fall back to the 120% rule.

I globally agree with that suggestion. (Even if it will probably be a still more obscure behaviour than today's.)

 

2 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I don't know the history of how that came about but I believe that Windows has generally used the value in the /typo table while Mac used the value in the /hhea table. Affinity uses the /hhea value and ignores the /typo value.

This article explains it pretty well (from the POV of a type creator):

https://glyphsapp.com/learn/vertical-metrics

 

[R C-R]

36 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

Note that Multiple works as a multiple of the font's default so it will have the same issue.

Good to know. Thanks.

[R C-R]

10 minutes ago, Oufti said:

This article explains it pretty well (from the POV of a type creator):

So only slightly more complicated than nuclear physics or quantum mechanics? 🤯