Is IDML export from Publisher going to be supported?

[Tupaia]

Dear Affinity team!

Can we get an official statement if the IDML (InDesign markup language) file format will ever be supported for export from Publisher?

'Ever' like in the next few years...

I assume you are aware why this is important in a mixed team with Adobe products. It's great to be able to import from InDesign, but as of now it's a one way ticked. Not being able to export from Publisher to InDesign means the whole team might be forced to use the Affinity suite, if just one member decides to use Publisher. That often results in the decision to not use Publisher at all.

It would be desirable to leave the choice to the user, of course.

In my book, the Affinity suite in the meantime is on par or superior to the equivalent Adobe programs (disregarded any cloud AI features etc.), but it's super hard to convince our office superiors to switch.

If roundtripping would be possible, the matter would be a very different one.

Even if IDML might not be fully feature complete compared to the .indd or .afpub formats, it is feature rich enough to work as a common ground. It surely would for our needs.

It has been asked before, I know, but I could not find any definite answer to your company policy in this regard.

Thanks a lot!

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, Tupaia said:

Can we get an official statement if the IDML (InDesign markup language) file format will ever be supported for export from Publisher?

I think you have been a forum member long enough to know that Serif's policy about such things for quite a few years now is that they will not comment on their future plans or timetables because there is no certainty about such things & they do not want to raise false hoped about if or when something might be added.

So the best you probably can hope for is to see if that feature ever makes it into some future beta.

[Tupaia]

Well, worth a try... =}

Doesn't hurt the good people at Serif if we knock on their door again about this feature, wether they answer or not.

(Guess I'm used to roam the Rhino 3D discourse forum, where any member has a direct wire to the developers, and even access to the feature/bugtracking website.)

[RWhite]

The lack of idml export is a definite deal breaker for me and many others in terms of the whole Affinity suite, unfortunately. I purchased the ipad version fairly recently to get a feel for the Affinity suite. And it appears at first sight to be extremely powerful and flexible. However that said, I cannot start thinking about transitioning fully without the ability to move and share layouts into Indesign. You can export to PSD from within Photo and SVG from Designer.  And I understand you can import idml files from indesign files into Publisher. But so far not the other way, so it seems obvious that this feature has been deliberated turned off, which is a shame. I understand that Adobe may not allow idml to be used by its competitors long term, if loads of users jump ship, but if they if they do currently it would be great to see this feature. 

[PaoloT]

I've expressed my desire for IDML export elsewhere, but I'll reiterate here. Even if all the features I need are implemented in Publisher, not being able to interconnect with InDesign will exclude it from my workflow.

It has been objected that a team must use the same tool. In my experience, this is not a universal truth. For example, in my career I've been using FreeHand and Illustrator, while my colleagues have been using Illustrator or CorelDRAW (apparently, the preferred drawing tool for technical designers). I often receive and send DOCX files, just to discover that the originals have been made with Apple Pages or LibreOffice.

My current workflow requires exchange between my InDesign files and the translators' CAT programs (not the same: each one uses a different one…). These want an INDD or IDML file, or an XML file if available, whatever the originating program. The page layout program can be used by the most scrupulous ones to fix some details that may go lost in the conversion.

However, there is someone who wants InDesign files. I could simply convince them to switch to Publisher, if it wasn't for the fact that they are higher in hierarchy than me. I guess this is a typical situation: an army of freelancers that would feel at home with Publisher, but are forced by a top-manager to use the "industry standard" solution.

In my part of the world (generally called the Occident or the West) the jobs landscape is quickly changing from a relation between a company and its employees, and one where a company hires freelancers. This is the perfect scenario for something like the Affinity Suite. If only it could connect with the old "industry standard"…

Adobe has already hidden the IDML specs document. It should mean that they wouldn't be too happy, if IDML export from Publisher does happen.

Paolo

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[PaoloT]

8 hours ago, lacerto said:

If you mean that the documentation is "hidden" amongst 81,960 files within the ID Plug-in SDK

The PDF containing the specifications has simply disappeared a couple years ago. If you can find a link in the Adobe site where to download it, I'd be happy to know. There is no sign of it, or its replacement, even in the new WebHelp documentation for InDesign's SDK.

8 hours ago, lacerto said:

Even with full IDML export support, true co-operation between diverse professionals already happens in the cloud and using common tools.

You are referring to some use cases I'm totally unaware of. But which type of cooperation? Which common tools? You refer to IDML as a way to giving files to clients. I use it, in the cases I described above, as a way to exchange data with my collaborators. As of now, I don't know of an alternative way of doing it "in the cloud". And I don't know of "common tools"; on the contrary, I can only think to very specialistic, very niche ones.

Paolo

 

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[PaoloT]

1 hour ago, lacerto said:

I referred to collaboration that involves working with the same file using compatible (= common, same) tools. I do not think that exchanging IDML files back and forth between two different apps can be productive as there are several things that do not fully translate.

"Exchanging back and forth" is maybe a bit exaggerate. At least in the cases in my experience, the workflow doesn't involve frequent exchanges. The typical flow is this one:

1) Collecting information and illustrations

2) First draft in something like Word or GDocs (here comes the Cloud!)

3) Assembly and editing in a page layout program

4) Proofreading on PDFs

5) Editing in the page layout program

6) Delivery for distribution or printing as PDF

7) Delivery of interchange data to directly managed translators

8) Delivery of the original materials to other partners, doing their own translation/adaptation

 

1 hour ago, lacerto said:

Personally I would not be happy to hand over a finished layout that has any degree of complexity to translators that would first import the document to e.g. Affinity Publisher, edit it there native, and then send it back converted to IDML using proprietary export method

That's not the method I know and use. It would be simply foolish doing a translation in a page layout document. This would mean less coherence and higher cost, by not reusing any existing translations. What is usually done is giving the translators a file that their specialized tools can read, convert into easily manageable chunks, and then return in the original format.

This means that a translator might not even see the layout of the original document (even if this is warmly recommended, but I know that not everyone does what is best to do).

The file format that the specialized tools used by the translators may be INDD, but it is very often IDML. An IDML file originating from InDesign, translated in Trados, returned as IDML and read from Affinity Publisher, would have the same amount of errors that an IDML file exchanged directly from InDesign to Publisher would have. Trados would hardly introduce variations (and when it does, they are really minimal).

Some translators are more scrupulous than others, and return you the translated text as a page layout document, in the format you have agreed on. This can be done with InDesign. But it can't be done, at the moment, with Publisher, not being compatible with the tools used by the translators.

 

1 hour ago, lacerto said:

The most recent file format specs that I have are version 8 and I think it came with the Master Suite CS6 (2012). I have also an IDML Cookbook that came with CS6.

Yes, it's the latest one we can clandestinely found in the dark web. It has been removed from the Adobe archives. The promised new version is not yet there.

How relevant IDML is, I can't say. I don't even know the current state of this job. I know that going from InDesign to an alternative program has been considered important by the respective developers. Going the other direction, who knows? If Serif's target is (also) the professional market, I guess it is extremely important, for the interconnection with other tools and the increased acceptability it will warrant. Apple, for example, has worked hard to make their productivity apps compatible with the ones of Microsoft. Standard formats are continually developed.

Apparently, Serif has already subtracted one tenth of customers from Adobe, and if this is true this is starting to be troublesome. Making things more complicate to a competitor may not be the definitive countermove, but it is better than nothing. Adobe (like Microsoft) usually buys and assimilate or destroys any potential threats. With Serif it might be more complicate, since they already went though a buy and repurchase. They know how dangerous it is, the world outside of Sherwood.

The third-party converter you cited is not the same as an export feature from Publisher, because it is very expensive and, apparently, not very deep or accurate. It would work for a rough conversion, but I'm not sure it would be better than using PDFs for this. Hardly the solution I'm hoping for, and that would be acceptable by the receivers of my files.

 

1 hour ago, lacerto said:

On the other hand, I think that support for IDML export is a double-edged sword: it makes it easy also to come back if it turns out that the competition was less competitive than was hoped.

The advantage of the Affinity apps, for the customers wanting to use them, seems at the moment untouched. Adobe will not switch back from subscription to one-time payment. Their structure is so huge that I don't expect their prices will go down (they have, actually, gone up). Their dominance is still basically untouched, and they will always get the advantage of the incumbent (no top-manager will understand that there are alternatives, no student will want to be out of the club of their friends*, no obsolete pre-press service will want to offer alternatives and learn new tools).

So, I see an IDML export feature as an unlikely trouble for Serif. The only trouble I see is if it remains out of the professional world, for lack of a way of interchanging data.

Paolo

 

* A few universities, among which the university of Melbourne, are actually switching from Adobe to Affinity. Wisely so: they have to teach techniques, not tools. And make the costs sustainable.

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[PaoloT]

Here I am again, with a draft now ready to be put in page. This project was entirely made in Markdown, and drafts submitted to the proofreaders and developers as PDF files, going through Word (but it could have been LibreOffice – unfortunately not Pages).

A final layout and printout from Word is out of discussion. I want my final product to have some visual dignity. So, a dedicated page layout will be.

I would like to use Publisher, since most of the features I still miss wouldn't be relevant for this project.

But the project will have to be translated. Translators are eagerly awaiting, their CAT tool jaws open wide, ready to ingest my original file in IDML format.

So, no way of using Publisher. InDesign will be, once again.

Paolo

 

[JJato]

Hi everyone,

I am also in the same situation, I used Publisher thinking I would be able to export in IDML and share the work I've done with my client, just to find out I can't do any of that. It's my fault for not having checked before jumping into the project.
I saw Markzware's solution but I never really have to do that, and the one-time conversion for 200€ might be a bit pricey for what it is...

Please, Serif / Affinity, find a way to export files that can be opened in InDesign. I really want to keep using your software but this doesn't look serious when you have to work with other professionals.

[PaoloT]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:58 PM, PaoloT said:

Some translators are more scrupulous than others, and return you the translated text as a page layout document, in the format you have agreed on. This can be done with InDesign. But it can't be done, at the moment, with Publisher, not being compatible with the tools used by the translators.

Something that is happening is that translators are checking their translated IDML files with Affinity Publisher. Publisher can read this format well enough to be considered reliable for proofreading files to be then used in InDesign.

It is a bit of a paradox, since you can use Publisher to check the InDesign files, but you can't translate Publisher files with the same tools.

Paolo

 

[Andy05]

15 hours ago, PaoloT said:

It is a bit of a paradox, since you can use Publisher to check the InDesign files, but you can't translate Publisher files with the same tools.

Just a guess:

Publisher probably uses Adobe's SDKs, libraries, or tools to enable file import functionality. And they pay for a licence for being able to do so. Such license might involve lower costs than exporting functionality, as importing does not enable the user to create new INDD/IDML files.

Often costs are the reason behind such decisions.

[PaoloT]

1 hour ago, Andy05 said:

Publisher probably uses Adobe's SDKs, libraries, or tools to enable file import functionality.

Since IDML is just an XML bundle, I'm leaning to believe that Serif just used the published specs to make their own converter. At least, I've never heard about Adobe supplying tools to convert their XML files, and each developer of compatible applications seem to be maintaining their own converter.

Making an exporter would let Publisher be accepted by a wider professional audience, but I'm not sure they are targeting companies and professionals acting in an international context. Not at the moment, at least. Maybe the reasoning is that those figures would just continue using Adobe.

But I can testify that the crowded world of small publishers is heavily tempted by Affinity – not only for the cost, but also for the close integration between the page layout and the image retouching modules. However, this is exactly the sector that is more heavily using translations.

Paolo

 

[peminator]

so much times passed, and still NO NEWS? FOr many potential buyers Affinity Suite looks ok, but its useless if i sometimes i need to cooperate and send editable source to someone having InDesign... IDML would do... now i have to consider expensive Adobe crap, just to get way to share sources in compatible way

[Andy05]

20 hours ago, peminator said:

so much times passed, and still NO NEWS? FOr many potential buyers Affinity Suite looks ok, but its useless if i sometimes i need to cooperate and send editable source to someone having InDesign... IDML would do... now i have to consider expensive Adobe crap, just to get way to share sources in compatible way

What a weird expectation, needing to work in an Adobe-focussed environment, but expecting non-Adobe apps helping you with that endeavour.

Don't get me wrong, as much as I'd love to see a better Adobe-related exchange of data, I never would expect a third party tool would have to help me, if I need to co-work with people using Adobe's apps.

That's like joining a French cuisine restaurant as a chef and insisting on only using Indian ingredients. Sure, Indian food is great, but it's not what the kitchen is set up for, and you'll end up complicating everyone's workflow.

 

 

[mopperle]

@peminator

Maybe this answers your question, quote from the IDML specification 8.0. I didnt find anything more recent.

Quote

IDML is intended for consumption by InDesign-family applications, including InDesign, InCopy,
and InDesign Server. IDML is not intended as an interchange format for use with applications
outside the InDesign family of products

 

[peminator]

20 hours ago, Andy05 said:

What a weird expectation, needing to work in an Adobe-focussed environment, but expecting non-Adobe apps helping you with that endeavour.

Don't get me wrong, as much as I'd love to see a better Adobe-related exchange of data, I never would expect a third party tool would have to help me, if I need to co-work with people using Adobe's apps.

That's like joining a French cuisine restaurant as a chef and insisting on only using Indian ingredients. Sure, Indian food is great, but it's not what the kitchen is set up for, and you'll end up complicating everyone's workflow.

 

 

it is pretty normal in other app types to have some common interchange format to allow maintaining some editability.  Like any 3D editor should be able open .obj files. 

And your example sucks, its more like read indian recipes, and TRANSLATION SERVICE is willing to translate them. And be hones, in this case Affinity is the Indian side, and they can open the english (IDML) recipes if the english ppl save to idml.. but CANNOT write own recipes to that format to provide back to other side.. its forbidden :D...

Interoperability is important, now i can open files from Adobe InDesign (lets name it corporate world) if they provide it in IDML format. But I, as small editor, am not able to take some jobs bc i am not able to provide them back w files where they can continue working on it.  Bought Affinity 1 Photo and Designer, now bought Affinity 2 pack happy what it can help w Pulisher app, now this...

Would not be buying, if i knew this shit will happen. Affinity 1 not stable anymore, often falling, made me buy 2. I lost money on this joke. 
Whole point of Affinity was great usability of Adobe files.. but nobody properly mentioned I cant save back anymore, except the final formats like PDF. Which sucks a lot.

 

[Andy05]

Any 3D editor might be able to interchange .obj files, but not whole (natively saved) sceneries with features only available in certain 3D apps. But that's what you're trying to do. Comparing the lack of exchanging .obj files is like saying you couldn't exchange any objects from your layouts via PDF, PNG, whatever between Adobe and Affinity.

But all back-and-forth discussion is pointless, if ...

3 hours ago, peminator said:

[...] Interoperability is important, [...]

that's a priority, you've done wrong, sorry. If Interoperability is something your professional workflow requires, you simply don't rely on third party apps. Period. That's the wrong situation for being a cheapskate. Pay for Adobe, 1-2 jobs per month should already pay multiple times for the suite's subscription.

[PaoloT]

On 2/6/2025 at 12:48 PM, mopperle said:

IDML is not intended as an interchange format for use with applications
outside the InDesign family of products

But it is widely used for this. Translators live with this file format exchanged between their specialized tools and InDesign.

There is also a British design software company using it to convert InDesign files to their own!

Paolo

 

[mopperle]

29 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

But it is widely used for this. Translators live with this file format exchanged between their specialized tools and InDesign.

Can you tell me a software that converts a PDF file into an IDML file for free?

[PaoloT]

34 minutes ago, mopperle said:

Can you tell me a software that converts a PDF file into an IDML file for free?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Weren't we talking about converting a working file format (like InDesign or Publisher) into IDML?

Paolo

 

[mopperle]

Well, Indesign (or The Adobe Universe in general) is of course not the question.

But what about PDF, or MS Word docx etc.? Do you know any software/converter outside Adobe which offers an Export of its own Format into IDML?

[MikeW]

5 minutes ago, mopperle said:

Well, Indesign (or The Adobe Universe in general) is of course not the question.

But what about PDF, or MS Word docx etc.? Do you know any software/converter outside Adobe which offers an Export of its own Format into IDML?

QuarkXPress and Viva Designer are the two applications that come to mind that can open/import and export .idml files. But if fidelity is a requirement, use whatever application(s) those with whom you are collaborating with use.