Copy selection in pixel layer not possible without new layer? [V1]

[LeftandRight]

Hi,

In Affinity Desiger V1, I can't copy a selection area within the same Pixel layer. This seems amazing so maybe I'm missing something.

I've read the manual, searched the forums, and tried everything I can think of.

Example:

1. Create new Pixel layer.

2. Draw the number '1' with a paintbrush.

3. Select the '1' and then the Move tool, and option-drag, to copy. Nothing happens.

4. Command-copy and paste it. It pastes into a new layer, separate from the original layer. Not what I want.

The only way I can find to do this is after #4, I group the two layers and then rasterise them. This creates a single layer with both copies. But working with large files and complex layouts, this is a pain to have to do over and over.

Is there really no way to copy a selection area into the same pixel layer?

If so, is this fixed in V2?

Thanks

L&R

[loukash]

54 minutes ago, LeftandRight said:

option-drag, to copy. Nothing happens.

Cmd-drag to copy is the Affinity standard.
While option-drag-to-copy has eventually also been added as a "feature" because it was a decades old standard elsewhere, you must press option first, then click&drag. Otherwise, drag-option only bypasses snapping.
That's "by design", not a bug.

[thomaso]

25 minutes ago, loukash said:

Cmd-drag to copy is the Affinity standard.

Does it work for you in the requested situation? – "Short answer: No." 😉

[loukash]

35 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Does it work for you in the requested situation?

Short answer:
Yes.

Long answer:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.

The clue is:
Do not try to "select" anything! As in "cmd-A" or similar. It's totally redundant. The pixel layer was already selected while you were drawing.
Draw on a pixel layer, then just switch to the Move tool and cmd-drag.
Layer duplicated.
In v1 and in v2.

[loukash]

If you mean duplicating a pixel selection on same pixel layer without cutting it, however, that has never worked.
Old news.

[thomaso]

11 minutes ago, loukash said:

Layer duplicated.

... while the OP (and the linked thread) explicitly wants to avoid a layer copy.
It appears not to work even regardless of your mentioned pixel selection but a layer's bounding box / MoveTool selection.

2 hours ago, LeftandRight said:

Is there really no way to copy a selection area into the same pixel layer?

[loukash]

Just now, thomaso said:

while the OP (and the linked thread) explicitly wants to avoid a layer copy.

Apparently.  

Frankly, I don't get this aversion against layers.
But don't get me wrong: After decades of being "photoshoppized" myself, initially it confused me as well. The clunky Photoshop UI always made me want to avoid having too many layers. Not to speak of the olden days when PS only had 1 (one!) Undo step (yes, I've been in the biz for that long). If I had always gotten a cent for every cmd-Z I had to perform after wrongly option-dragged a selection, I would have been able to buy yet another PS license…

Anyway…

@LeftandRight was asking how to duplicate something they just drew on a fresh pixel layer, which reads to me that they wanted to copy all.
Keep in mind that the "pixel pushing" support in ADe is admittedly rudimentary, more of an extra feature as an addition to ADe's main vector focus. And that was literaly "by design". The Pixel persona was never meant to fully substitute APh. 

Checking out ADe1 again, apparently cmd-drag a pixel selection via Move tool was supposed "to clone selected objects" according to the info bar. It doesn't, it just moves it which is likely a never fixed bug.

That bug was fixed in ADe2 where cmd-drag will clone the selection on the same layer while leaving the source pixels in place.
(Yes, this should have been fixed in ADe1. No dispute here. But as we know, it won't be.)

[thomaso]

57 minutes ago, loukash said:

Frankly, I don't get this aversion against layers.

It's not about aversion but in this thread rather just about a clear, unambiguous, not misleading answer.
(… regardless of the question whether it is 'too' cumbersome to select + merge such multiple layer copies or one better uses the clone brush or other available workflows).

51 minutes ago, loukash said:

That bug was fixed in ADe2 where cmd-drag will clone the selection on the same layer while leaving the source pixels in place.

Interesting. Do you mean cmd-drag in the layout – or in the Layers Panel?

• In case of the first it sounds strange as it seems you move something on the artwork which obviously appears as copy while moving but when you release the mouse button it jumps back to its initial position?

• In case of the latter it would be good news, even after years with V1 it still happens occasionally that I try to option-drag a layer in the Layers panel to create a copy AND move it directly to a wanted position within the layer hierarchy.

[loukash]

Just now, thomaso said:

Do you mean cmd-drag in the layout

As described above:

4 hours ago, LeftandRight said:

1. Create new Pixel layer.

2. Draw the number '1' with a paintbrush.

3. Select the '1' [as a pixel selection] and then the Move tool, and option[COMMAND]-drag, to copy.

^ emphasis and inserts mine. This works in ADe2 – but not in ADe1 where cmd-drag will cut-and-move on the same layer, not copy.

8 minutes ago, thomaso said:

years with V1

4 minutes ago, thomaso said:

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 only

Your MBP definitely supports Catalina or higher, so get a fast and large SSD, format it as APFS, install the highest MacOS your MBP supports, then create a separate volume  on the fly to clone back your old Mojave volume as is. Mojave already supports APFS which is a Good Thing™ in your scenario.

Then you can test v2 on a separate bootable partition as much as you like. Been there done that with my old MBP 2012 which can boot anything from Mountain Lion to Catalina (unfortunately Mojave and Catalina partitions being inaccessible from Sierra or earlier). Also, I still have ADe and APh 1.8.4 from the App Store on my Mountain Lion partition!  

[LeftandRight]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:05 PM, loukash said:

@LeftandRight was asking how to duplicate something they just drew on a fresh pixel layer, which reads to me that they wanted to copy all.

@loukash & @thomaso:

I tried to make my example as simple as possible to avoid misunderstandings. But I got one anyway. LOL.

That is, to ask my simple question, about duplication on the same pixel layer, I didn't feel it necessary to explain the actual situation; but I might as well now. I'm working on a file that contains a pixel layer which, on its own, contains scores of hand-drawn icons and hundreds of hand-printed words, which I'm editing. Occasionally I see a short-cut where I could clone something from one place (like a single letter) and use it in another place if I modify it slightly. Other drawing programs I've used in the past, at least four of them, have allowed that in bitmap files. I assumed AD1 would also.

But the two of you, as part of your (to me) somewhat mind-bending experts' discussion, have, I've decided, confirmed that AD1 doesn't allow this. And so—unlike the 'flip horizontal' and 'flip vertical' features, which are undocumented but which I found by searching the Internet to in fact exist (in AD1!) via a slick trick—I will accept that I cannot clone within the same layer, since you say so. 🙂

@loukash My aversion to extra layers might seem nonsensical to you, but consider: In this file I have not only that large main pixel layer, but, if I open all my groups, hundreds of other supporting vector and/or pixel and/or image objects in several layers. And so I didn't want to add new objects for clones of small pixel areas if I could avoid it. I projected this would add to what is already a complex management problem.

I do thank you both for the information, to the degree that I understood it. It's good to know that it's fixed in AD2. Maybe someday I'll get past High Sierra and get to use it. 🙂

L&R

 

 

[loukash]

7 hours ago, LeftandRight said:

I didn't want to add new objects for clones of small pixel areas if I could avoid it.

Fair enough. But this particular bug aside, Designer simply never was supposed to have all these advanced pixel manipulation tools like Photo.
If you also have Photo v1 (which suffers from the same "clone in place" bug), then simply:

1. File → Edit In Photo
2. in the Layers panel select all "Pixel" type of layers you want to merge
3. Layer → Merge Selected
4. File → Edit In Designer to get back where you came from

7 hours ago, LeftandRight said:

Maybe someday I'll get past High Sierra and get to use it. 🙂

I hear you!  I switched from El Capitan as the primary OS to Ventura only three months ago, having had a small Catalina partition only for testing purposes on my old Mac.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, loukash said:

• File → Edit In Photo
• in the Layers panel select all "Pixel" type of layers you want to merge
• Layer → Merge Selected

It maybe easier to achieve without an app switch: In AD select the layers you want to merge -> group them -> right-click this group layer -> choose "Rasterize…".

[loukash]

22 minutes ago, thomaso said:

group them

Good catch. I was thinking about the Rasterize command as a solution as well, but forgot the Group step – or simply right-click a "Layer" type of layer – to make it work.

[thomaso]

1 minute ago, loukash said:

or simply right-click a "Layer" type of layer – to make it work.

This seems less 'simple' than grouping because it requires the extra step to move the wanted layers to the new Layer.

[loukash]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

it requires the extra step to move the wanted layers to the new Layer.

Not if they already were in a separate layer. That's a logical workflow anyone sane who works with dozens of objects would do anyway.  

[Obscured]

.

[thomaso]

@Return, your workflow with a nested pixel layer may reduce the need to group or create a Layer layer first but it needs to start with a pixel layer without transparency.

For the OP's initial description (paintbrush stroke on a new pixel layer) it wouldn't work: the copy gets clipped by its parent if nested, invisible where they don't overlap. (below I coloured the brush layer copy to make it visible)

[loukash]

11 minutes ago, thomaso said:

your workflow with a nested pixel layer may reduce the need to group or create a Layer layer first but it needs to start with a pixel layer without transparency

But it's an interesting solution nonetheless.
In general, this all illustrates how flexible the overall Affinity object and layer model is, even with the very limited pixel editing tools in Designer. It's a Good Thing™ that such options are available out of the box.  

[Obscured]

.

[thomaso]

6 minutes ago, loukash said:

this all illustrates how flexible the overall Affinity object and layer model is, even with the very limited pixel editing tools in Designer. It's a Good Thing™ that such options are available out of the box.  

"I can't tell you the way to the bakery (not sure we have one) – but I know a nice walk to the hairdresser, which proves the beauty of our village." 😎

[loukash]

33 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I can't tell you the way to the bakery (not sure we have one)

We do have one here. It's called Affinity Photo.  

[thomaso]

11 minutes ago, loukash said:

Affinity Photo.  

Lecker! – But what's that sign at their door?

4 hours ago, loukash said:

Photo v1 (which suffers from the same "clone in place" bug)

[loukash]

2 minutes ago, thomaso said:

But what's that sign at their door?

Well, after our Bäckerei Zoller closed down about 12 years ago, I had to learn to bake my own Sauerteig-Kümmelbrot because nobody else here in the whole region here does. So is the life of an Eigen(kümmel)brötler… 

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, loukash said:

So is the life

APub, AD, APh –  "our perfectly balanced mixture"

Ja, leider ist Kümmelbrot oft nur outgesourct available, oder ganz vom Markt weggeregelt, wie orangefarbene Autos, Münzfernsprecher, Latzhosen, Fixogum, Letraset, uvm …

[LeftandRight]

5 hours ago, thomaso said:

It maybe easier to achieve without an app switch: In AD select the layers you want to merge -> group them -> right-click this group layer -> choose "Rasterize…".

@thomaso and @loukash,

You experts move waaaaaay too fast. If you look at my original post, you'll see that this solution has previously been noticed. 🙂

And why don't you use that solution, you may reasonably ask.

Because in some rasterization instances, unrelated to this issue, I seemed to lose dpi of the original image by rasterising. And also I find anti-aliasing crops up unexpectedly in rasterising (and in moving). Even with 'keep exact pixels' selected. And I can't find where to control the dpi of rasterising in individual re-rasterising events like this (if this is even possible. Is it?) And my understanding from other threads is that it's not possible to turn anti-aliasing off in AD1.

Thus: since I'm new to AD and don't understand when it's going to suddenly create digital artifacts if I repeatedly rasterize the same pixel layer as I'm adding new objects over and over, I'm reluctant to use this solution.

@loukash I don't have APhoto. But I'll suppose the 'merge' solution will really be a 'rasterize' by another name? Which means I'd still not want to use it over and over.

L&R