Total Ink Coverage

[Chris26]

Is there a method within Affinity whereby I can reduce total CMYK ink coverage?  I can do this in my Apple Mac Photoshop but would prefer not to have to change computers and swop out files for this particular task since I have quite some blacks to deal with.  

[thomaso]

For what purpose & in what file type(s) or object types (vector / pixel) do you want to reduce the TIC?

• If for print PDF you could export with an according profile.

• If you have a feature in mind that (auto-) reduces CMY and replaces them with K (e.g. GCR/UCR) it does not exist in Affinity apps as a ready made function, as far I know neither in V1 nor V2.

• If you want to turn vector black definition within Affinity you might use the "Select same…" feature in V1 and assign the wanted black instead. For text objects only you can use the F&R panel.

[Oufti]

This can be done using an appropriate ICC profile. 

If you are printing in offset, following European norms, you could use an ECI profile:

http://www.eci.org/doku.php?id=en:downloads#icc_profiles_from_eci

like "PSO coated v3" or "PSO uncoatedv3" following the type of paper you will use. 

But the best is to ask your printer which profile to use… 

[Chris26]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

For what purpose & in what file type(s) or object types (vector / pixel) do you want to reduce the TIC?

• If for print PDF you could export with an according profile.

• If you have a feature in mind that (auto-) reduces CMY and replaces them with K (e.g. GCR/UCR) it does not exist in Affinity apps as a ready made function, as far I know neither in V1 nor V2.

• If you want to turn vector black definition within Affinity you might use the "Select same…" feature in V1 and assign the wanted black instead. For text objects only you can use the F&R panel.

 

1 hour ago, Oufti said:

This can be done using an appropriate ICC profile. 

If you are printing in offset, following European norms, you could use an ECI profile:

http://www.eci.org/doku.php?id=en:downloads#icc_profiles_from_eci

like "PSO coated v3" or "PSO uncoatedv3" following the type of paper you will use. 

But the best is to ask your printer which profile to use… 

 

Thomaso and Oufti, I am sorry, but really, everything you have both said just goes over my head.   I have no idea what you are talking about.

1.  I know the profile that is required - Fogra 39

2. I know about Proofing in my affinity document and in photoshop

3.  Photographers have been reducing ink coverage maually when one asks for total ink coverage for a specific media from the Printer if printing onto magazines and leaflets etc, this prevents unwanted surprises in the blacks and shadows.

4.  I know I can adjust the RGB values instead in order to prevent unexpected results from a printer but now I am dealing, not with Photographic paper where colour gamuts are slightly greater than the average magazine or leaflet substrate- I have been doing that for years.  All I needed to know is if any Affinity program can do what adobe acrobat and photoshop can do, and now I assume it can not. 

So I will use Photoshop.  But thankyou for your attempts to help.  

[Oufti]

If you use a profile based on Fogra39, it can include the required checking for 300% Total Ink Coverage. But it is something to check in its documentation. 

For example, it's the case for the ECI offset profile "ISOcoated_v2_300_eci. icc", which is

Quote

 

based on the characterization dataset “FOGRA39L.txt” and applicable to for the following reference printing conditions according to the international standard ISO 12647-2:2004/Amd 1:

Commercial and specialty offset, paper type 1 and 2, gloss or matt coated paper, positive plates, tone value increase curves A (CMY) and B (K), white backing.

The profile was generated using Heidelberg PrintOpen 5.2 with the following settings:

Black length:9 (starting point 10%)
Black width: 10
Total dot area: 300%
Maximum Black: 95%

 

This standard profile is not as new as the "PSO coated v3" (similar in its uses but based on the newer dataset FOGRA 51) I referred you to before, but both of these will respect the 300% ink coverage limitation and correspond to standard conditions for offset printing in Europe on coated papers. 

Preparing your file to be printed in offset is in essence the same process as for printing on photographic paper, or any other machine, ink and paper combination.

If you know how to print your photos with Aff programs, you can do the same for a magazine or book, but changing the profile. 

 

2 hours ago, Chris26 said:

All I needed to know is if any Affinity program can do what adobe acrobat and photoshop can do, and now I assume it can not. 

Once again, I wonder why you care so? As printers generally print PDF's and not Affinity native files, applying a correct profile at export should be sufficient… 

Nevertheless, a final check in Adobe Acrobat is never a bad thing.  

 

2 hours ago, Chris26 said:

[…] everything you have both said just goes over my head.   I have no idea what you are talking about.

Hence my suggestion to ask the printer to make himself the RGB to CMYK conversion… 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Oufti

[Chris26]

1 hour ago, Oufti said:

If you use a profile based on Fogra39, it can include the required checking for 300% Total Ink Coverage. But it is something to check in its documentation. 

For example, it's the case for the ECI offset profile "ISOcoated_v2_300_eci. icc", which is

 

This standard profile is not as new as the "PSO coated v3" (similar in its uses but based on the newer dataset FOGRA 51) I referred you to, but both of these will respect the 300% ink coverage limitation and correspond to standard conditions for offset

printing in Europe on coated papers. 

 

Once again, I wonder why you care so: as printers generally don't print Affinity native files but PDF's, applying a correct profile at export should be sufficient… 

Nevertheless, a final check in Adobe Acrobat is never a bad thing.  

Very grateful for that first piece of useful information.  I emailed yesterday for the printer's ink coverage so will get a reply today sometime.  Let's see if he matches up.  Thanks.

As for this question: '' as printers generally don't print Affinity native files but PDF's, applying a correct profile at export should be sufficient… '''  Naturally I knew that, but applying a correct profile at export??  if the images are in RGB of course one is not going to get colour or tonal accuracies to the nth degree.  So it needs adjusting.  Applying the correct profile - exactly what do you mean here?  I supply the PDF as document RGB, uploading the PDF according to whatever specification he asks, he converts.  What more is there to understand?  There is no such thing as a correct profile, only the one that is asked for.  We must be confusing semantics along the road here somewhere.

 

Also, you said: it can include the required checking for 300%, yes I saw that when I proofed in publisher and saw all the green algae cover my nice deep shadows and so on.  Hence I need to change that otherwise 10 booklets will be returned to me with lots of ikky muddy splodges.

[Oufti]

26 minutes ago, Chris26 said:

if the images are in RGB of course one is not going to get colour or tonal accuracies to the nth degree.  So it needs adjusting. […]

I supply the PDF as document RGB, uploading the PDF according to whatever specification he asks, he converts.  What more is there to understand?  There is no such thing as a correct profile, only the one that is asked for.

You can add a soft proof adjustment layer to check the effect of the CMYK profile (that, at your knowledge, corresponds the best to the future printing conditions) / (asked for by the printer). 

https://affinity.help/designer/en-US.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Adjustments/adjustment_softProof.html?title=Soft Proof adjustment

(Applying an adjustment layer for soft proofing is specific to Aff programs. In Adobe's programs, you would do it differently. An important point to remember from the help link is that « As it [= soft proof adjustment layer] behaves like a standard adjustment layer, it must be hidden or removed before exporting or sending to print, otherwise its effect will be included in the output. »)

I am sorry if I was unclear above. Even in my mother language, I know how it is difficult to explain, or to understand, this… 

(P.S. I edited my message above when you were answering. In case you didn't notice, I now ticked the Edited box.)

[Oufti]

46 minutes ago, Chris26 said:

when I proofed in publisher [I] saw all the green algae cover my nice deep shadows and so on.  Hence I need to change that[,] otherwise 10 booklets will be returned to me with lots of ikky muddy splodges.

I suppose the "green algæ" refer to the out of gamut colours?

In practice if you were to print your file as it is, that would not result in a muddy wet paper, caused by too much inking, because the printer will apply a profile reducing the TIC to an acceptable level. But in your deep shadows, it could result in a loss of nuances and details if the dynamic is too large.

So, yes! Proof and adjust…  

Edited July 29, 2023 by Oufti
Language…

[thomaso]

14 hours ago, Chris26 said:

4.  I know I can adjust the RGB values instead in order to prevent unexpected results from a printer but now I am dealing, not with Photographic paper where colour gamuts are slightly greater than the average magazine or leaflet substrate- I have been doing that for years.  All I needed to know is if any Affinity program can do what adobe acrobat and photoshop can do, and now I assume it can not. 

So I will use Photoshop. 

12 hours ago, Chris26 said:

I supply the PDF as document RGB

I might misunderstand your goal: If you supply RGB data, where (in which file(s)) do you want to set the total ink coverage TIC/TAC ? It is not a value to be set in RGB (= light, not ink) but during or after conversion to CMYK and concerns the way how dark RGB colours / blacks get converted into a mixture of CMY + K.

Or do you mean the Dot Gain / Tonal Value Increase (TVI) in RGB or CMYK image files? (~ e.g. the 'intensity' in mid tones)

Just in case: This list shows TIC, GCR, TVI values and paper types for about 25 print profiles: https://www.color.org/registry/index.xalter

[Chris26]

10 hours ago, Oufti said:

 

I am sorry if I was unclear above. Even in my mother language, I know how it is difficult to explain, or to understand, this… 

 

 

Jij kunt in het Nederlandse taal schrijven als je wilt.  Of ben jij Franse?.  Maar harteljk bedankt voor alles Oufti.    Alles wordt hulpvol.

 

 

10 hours ago, Oufti said:

I suppose the "green algæ" refer to the out of gamut colours?

In practice if you were to print your file as it is, that would not result in a muddy wet paper, caused by too much inking, because the printer will apply a profile reducing the TIC to an acceptable level. But in your deep shadows, it could result in a loss of nuances and details if the dynamic is too large.

So, yes! Proof and adjust…  

 

Klopt, green algae, was mijn mening. 

 

8 hours ago, thomaso said:

I might misunderstand your goal: If you supply RGB data, where (in which file(s)) do you want to set the total ink coverage TIC/TAC ? It is not a value to be set in RGB (= light, not ink) but during or after conversion to CMYK and concerns the way how dark RGB colours / blacks get converted into a mixture of CMY + K.

Or do you mean the Dot Gain / Tonal Value Increase (TVI) in RGB or CMYK image files? (~ the 'intensity' in mid tones and lights)

Just in case: This list shows TIC, GCR, TVI values and paper types for about 25 print profiles: https://www.color.org/registry/index.xalter

 

Thank you for this link Thomaso.  That is great. Thank you for your links and advice.  Everything has been helpful.