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I am soooo frustrated with this 'soft proofing' and NO ONE helping! Sure, I have used soft proofing

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Elaborating a little on the soft-proof adjustment layer and the flatten operation in the history of the screen shot in post #20:

 

In AP, soft-proofing as an adjustment layer apparently has the power to change the actual RGB pixel values in your document.  That is, the appearance of the image when viewed with a soft proof adjustment layer changes because the adjustment layer changes the pixel values of the composite image (layer stack).  This is distinctly different than soft proofing in PS, where the appearance of the image on screen changes, but the RGB values of the actual document do not change.  The critical thing to realize here is that if you flatten your layer stack with the Soft Proof adjustment layer enabled you are burning that soft proof change INTO THE RGB values of your document!  It now becomes a permanent change.  THIS IS NOT GOOD!  Soft Proofing should be a simulation of the output device, not a permanent edit to your RGB data.  Soft proofing with an adjustment layer should be done with the understanding that the soft proofing adjustment simulates the output device so that you can add, say, a curves adjustment to compensate for a slight loss of contrast due to the printer.  So, you add the soft proof layer to simulate the output for your printer-paper combination, then you tweak the image to compensate for the output device.  Then you DISABLE the soft proof layer and save your adjusted file for output to the specific device you simulated with the soft proof.

 

In PS, you enable soft-proofing and do the same thing - you choose your output profile to simulate the output device, add a curve, or whatever, to compensate for specifics of the printer-paper combination and save your file for output.  Because soft-proofing in PS occurs at the display level, it does not alter the actual RGB values of your document, so there is no need to disable soft proofing to save your tweaked file.

 

This is really important and I was not really aware that the AP soft-proofing adjustment layer could actually be applied as a destructive change to your layer stack and the RGB values in the document.

 

So, if you use the soft-proofing adjustment layer to simulate your printer for final tweaking to output, make sure you disable the soft-proof layer when you save your final output - otherwise the soft-proof "adjustment" will get burned into the document (EDIT: Maybe?).

 

Someone who is more familiar with soft-proofing in AP, please correct me if my observations are off the mark.

 

Kirk

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kirkt I think you probably nailed it

as you can see in this screenshot https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/18821-i-am-soooo-frustrated-with-this-soft-proofing-and-no-one-helping-sure-i-have-used-soft-proofing/?p=87700 he did exactly what you described, baked the soft proof layer by flattening.

 

And you´re correct with your statement that the soft proof gets baked into the pixel values on export if you don´t disable the soft proof layer.


 

 

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What still concerns me is that the screenshot in Post #20 is apparently just comparing the image, as converted and edited (and eventually exported) in AP (with the ".CR2" extension in the document tab) to the exported TIFF opened in PS.  Even though the history panel shows edits and flattening of the soft proof layer, etc., the flattened image at the end of the processing chain should appear the same in both applications.  That is, because the history stack shows that the document was flattened, presumably any edits, adjustment layers, etc. have been committed destructively to the document and, presumably, exported as a16bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF that we see in the PS window.  These two images should look identical.  The PS window does not indicate that soft proofing is enabled in PS in that screen shot.

 

I also noticed in the Export > TIFF tab of the Export dialog that there is a checkbox to "Don't export layers hidden by Export Persona."  This is probably an important box to check if you use the Export Persona to disable something like a soft proof adjustment layer prior to exporting for final output.

 

I would like to know what the "[M]" (capital M in square brackets) means at the end of the filename in the document tab of the image in AP in Post #20.

 

Ultimately, I am trying to narrow down the possible suspects in the editing workflow here, but the comparisons so far are a little scattered and need some tighter control with explicitly stated "knowns" - hence my requests for the two exercises above.

 

kirk

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And you´re correct with your statement that the soft proof gets baked into the pixel values on export if you don´t disable the soft proof layer.

 

That's interesting. Had to test it myself as the help menu reads different. Nothing in there about the need to disable the adjustment.

 

post-9020-0-37962800-1458138880_thumb.png

 

 

Allan


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 kirkt thank you for your finding  this is real serious - softproof alters the image and is not ignored on export hope this get fixed soon.  but i think this is only one of the  problems here. 

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And you´re correct with your statement that the soft proof gets baked into the pixel values on export if you don´t disable the soft proof layer.

I do not know how this actually works in practice, but from the AP help topic Soft Proof adjustment there is this (emphasis added):

 

"This adjustment allows you to preview different output options for your photo or design. However, it does not affect the final print or export of your photo. It is always non-printing and non-exporting. You will need to replicate the options of the soft proof at the print or export stage."

 

Perhaps there is a bug in the app that does not prevent soft proof adjustments (there can be more than one in a document, according to the Color management help topic) from being exported, or maybe rasterizing a soft proof adjustment layer causes it to become a regular layer?

 

Edit: Sorry, I did not see the reply by mystrawberrymonkey that mentions the same thing in the help topic until after I posted the above.

Edited by R C-R

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I would like to know what the "[M]" (capital M in square brackets) means at the end of the filename in the document tab of the image in AP in Post #20.

It means "modified," in other words that the file has been modified since the last save. It is the same thing as the "[Modified]" suffix that appears in the title of a document window when there is just one document open & its filename is displayed there instead of in the tabs when multiple documents are open.

 

Edit: Once again, someone else beat me to it.  :o

Edited by R C-R

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That's interesting. Had to test it myself as the help menu reads different. Nothing in there about the need to disable the adjustment.

 

attachicon.gifScreen Shot 2016-03-16 at 14.29.21.png

 

 

Allan

 

It may get excluded from Export and Print automatically (according to the screen shot in the post by mystrawberrymonkey), but if you flatten the layer stack while it is active, its effects are burned into your composite.  Woah!  

 

Thanks MBd and R C-R for the heads up about the "[M]" - got it!

 

kirk

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It may get excluded from Export and Print automatically (according to the screen shot in the post by mystrawberrymonkey), but if you flatten the layer stack while it is active, its effects are burned into your composite.  Woah!

I just did some quick checks exporting a sample file with a soft proof adjustment with the gamut check enabled to a 16 bit Tiff file & the gray gamut check overlay at least does get exported if the adjustment layer is visible. If it isn't visible, it does not, regardless of the "Don't export layers hidden by Export Persona" setting.

 

So I think this must be a bug.


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As I´ve linked to - it´s deliberate, they show this in a tutorial where they say you can use a soft proof layer as a sort of LUT adjustment so this implies that it get´s exported. Whether this is a professional approach or not is a different debate - you´d probably say it´s not.

The help file is just not correct.


 

 

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This is really important and I was not really aware that the AP soft-proofing adjustment layer could actually be applied as a destructive change to your layer stack and the RGB values in the document.

 

So, if you use the soft-proofing adjustment layer to simulate your printer for final tweaking to output, make sure you disable the soft-proof layer when you save your final output - otherwise the soft-proof "adjustment" will get burned into the document.

 

Someone who is more familiar with soft-proofing in AP, please correct me if my observations are off the mark.

 

Kirk

 

Thank you kirkt, csp and all involved,

The Soft Proof shouldn't change the image in any way on export as stated in the Help.

I've logged this to be looked at.

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As I´ve linked to - it´s deliberate, they show this in a tutorial where they say you can use a soft proof layer as a sort of LUT adjustment ...

Do you happen to know which video shows this? There are so many of them now it is hard to keep track of them all.


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MEB, thanks for the link to the video. Nice to know s.p. adjustments can be used to create interesting tonal effects when one wants to do that, but not so nice that it isn't working right for exports (yet).


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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I have watched the sp video, over and over again.   And again, just know.   I did exactly as the voice told me to.   No match.   According to video, and please confirm, he suggests the sp is to see what the printed image will look like.         

 

Sorry.   Not on my display.

 

And would someone explain what is meant and the process to do it, when he says 'merge'?   What are the motions I do to merge like he says?

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According to video, and please confirm, he suggests the sp is to see what the printed image will look like.

No, soft proofing is used to simulate what the page would look like if you printed it without doing any adjustments. See for example this discussion. Think of it as a preview, if that helps.


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Thanks RC-R.   I read the discussion.        Guess a matter of semantics.  Still puzzled.   Still must use LR with it's soft proofing.  Even PS's soft proofing.   Nothing else seems to work regarding AP.   And I really want to use AP.

 

Has anyone tried 'assign profiles', or 'convert to  profile'  in AP?   See if that makes a difference

 

D

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Here is a screen shot where I did not use soft proofing.    The AP image and the image ready to print are not the same.

 

AP is more saturated and brighter

post-26329-0-09707500-1458164918_thumb.png

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For at least ten years,  I made an attempt to go to photo printers, not prepress, in my town, and show them how to save money and not continually print to match the display they were using, or adjust their display to match what came out of their printer.  

 

Some where willing to try, and where delighted.   Others just kept chasing  the perfect print at the expense of ink and paper.

 

I don't consider myself a color scientist.  You can find some of them on the colorsync-users@lists.apple.com I do enjoy having a fine replication/representation of an artist's original art.  Gives my great joy.

 

This is my goal with Affinity Photo. 

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I have watched the sp video, over and over again.   And again, just know.   I did exactly as the voice told me to.   No match.   According to video, and please confirm, he suggests the sp is to see what the printed image will look like.         

 

Sorry.   Not on my display.

 

And would someone explain what is meant and the process to do it, when he says 'merge'?   What are the motions I do to merge like he says?

 

 

As R C-R and others have described, soft proofing is just that - it is a software simulation of a proof print.  Instead of opening an image, doing your edits and then printing a proof to see how the edits you made get rendered by the printer, a soft proof is the software's attempt, using the ICC profile for the output device, to simulate the proof on your display.  You probably already know this, but there are people following this thread that may benefit from the explanation - it is not my intent to insult your intelligence or imply that you do not know this.

 

Soft proofing that you may be used to in Photoshop is implemented at the display level.  It takes your layer stack and renders it through the ICC profile of the device you want to simulate, using the rendering intent, black point compensation and paper white simulation to give you an idea of how the image will look on your output device (in your case, your printer).  This saves us the hassle of printing a proof, inspecting it in controlled viewing conditions, making judgements about various edits that are still necessary and then making the edits and the printing another proof, etc.  In Photoshop, the RGB numbers of the document in the working space are converted through the soft proof profile so that they can be displayed as a simulation of the output device; however, the RGB numbers of the actual document are not changed in the document itself - it is just a simulation for viewing purposes.

 

In AP, soft proofing is not implemented in a purely display-based way - it is implemented as an adjustment layer.  While this is interesting, it may cause a little confusion.  When the Soft Proof adjustment layer is placed on the layer stack, it actually changes the RGB numbers of the document so that the rendering of the document takes on the appearance of the composite stack below the Soft Proof adjustment, with the transformation of the RGB numbers from the working space to the output device profile selected in the Soft Proof adjustment layer.  This is an actual adjustment to the image, just like a curves adjustment or any other adjustment layer.  As the video states, you need to make your compensatory tweaks to the image for print in AP with layers placed UNDER the Soft Proof adjustment layer to see how those compensatory tweaks will modify the look of the simulated print.

 

According to what has been stated in this thread, the Soft Proof adjustment layer IS NOT supposed to get exported or printed, regardless of whether or not it is visible/active in the layer stack.  However, you can apply its effect to the layer stack by merging the Soft Proof adjustment layer into the stack - using the flatten command or the "Merge" button on the Soft Proof adjustment layer dialog panel.  As the video states, you might want to do this for creative reasons - this is not something that I have seen in other applications, but it is analogous to using the ICC profile in soft proof mode as a LUT (Look Up Table).

 

I have also tried to understand how this compares to Assign Profile or Convert to Profile.  The problem is, the ICC profiles available in the Assign and Convert dialogs are not the same as the Soft Proof ICC profiles.  I do not know why this is the case.

 

Please understand - I know you are frustrated.  But, if you have the time, can you please do the exercises that I proposed: just open the same file in AP and PS and apply the soft proof adjustment layer with the ICC and settings in AP and apply those same settings for soft proofing in PS and report the results.  Do not flatten anything, do not export anything.  Just take a screen shot of the AP and PS rendering on the same screen next to each other.  This will at least give you an idea if the soft proofing in each application is comparable, without any other things to confound the comparison.

 

I am trying to isolate your problem in a methodical way, so we need to start with some simple experiments with well-known conditions.  I say "your" problem, because I cannot replicate it on either of my Macs.

 

Kirk

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