we need backward compatibility

[nitro912gr]

Hello I just wanted to make a clean thread asking for backward compatible files between v2 and v1 of programs.

I didn't had any reason to need it till now but now I do notice what a big problem it is.

First of all now that the summer time that I have most of my workload I did noticed problems with designer v2 performance and I wished to move back on v1 till it is fixed, but nope. I can't open v2 files, I need to do workarounds with sketchy imports.

Second, I wanted to work on my macbook from home so I tried to get the designer v2 trial there to see what's up, but nope OS not supported so it can only use v1. But I use v2 on workstation and this is another roadblock.

So yeah dear Serif, please we need backward compatibility.

It is understandable that there is tools that are simple not available on v1 but this can be bypassed by automatically converting to curves whatever is not gonna work and display a warning of losing the editability of some objects if the file is saved with the older program version.

Thanks

[fde101]

Technically this is a request for forward compatibility.  You are asking for version 1 to be forward compatible with files generated in version 2.

For that to work seamlessly, Serif would have needed to be able to see into the future and implement in version 1 the features that version 2 would have, before they finished creating them for version 2.

The file format is simply not designed to support this level of compatibility, even if newer features were ignored.

The best you could hope for would be for version 2 to write files in the version 1 format, and I personally consider that unlikely.

A more likely outcome would be the creation of a more generic interchange format (like what Adobe did with IDML), probably an XML, JSON or YAML file, which you could export from in versions after this new format was implemented, in order to import into other versions after this new format was implemented, simply ignoring anything that the version you are importing to does not understand.  This would also facilitate interchange with third-party utilities and applications, making it an overall win for a number of reasons compared to the current situation.

Depending on how much access is provided, it may be possible for a third party to implement such a format once the plugin/scripting API is available, if Serif does not do so themselves, but it would still only apply to versions going forward from that point, so will not be helpful for version 1 in any case.

[Pšenda]

V2 Ctrl+C, V1 Ctrl+V.
Or V2 export to PDF, V1 Open/import PDF.

 

P.S. Just for interest:

2 hours ago, nitro912gr said:

So yeah dear Serif, please we need backward compatibility.

How many years and development capacities (which will of course be missing when fixing errors - for example, slowing down the application, and implementing new functions) do you think it will take for this completely new feature, never considered by Serif?
Why am I asking? From your request, I got the feeling that you would definitely need this very complicated and therefore very often unsupported feature by Serif and other companies in the next few hours/days.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Pšenda

[shushustorm]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:21 PM, fde101 said:

Technically this is a request for forward compatibility.  You are asking for version 1 to be forward compatible with files generated in version 2.

No, OP did not:

On 4/24/2023 at 2:34 PM, nitro912gr said:

It is understandable that there is tools that are simple not available on v1 but this can be bypassed by automatically converting to curves whatever is not gonna work

V2 should be able to import (which it already does) and export V1 files. Not vice versa. And I absolutely agree with that.

Similarly to OP, I could use V2 on iPad if I could export V1 files to use on Mac (running an OS unsupported by V2). Besides, it would make the instability of V2 less of a burden, because one could always go back to V1 if needed.

Right now, having purchased the whole V2 suite, I can only make use of V2 Designer on iPad, and only for knife and shape builder and port the vectors to V1. Quite limited. Not to mention user base fragmentation, but I guess I've sent enough feedback.

[shushustorm]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:31 PM, Pšenda said:

V2 Ctrl+C, V1 Ctrl+V.

Didn't work on iPad when I tried.

On 4/24/2023 at 4:31 PM, Pšenda said:

How many years and development capacities [...] do you think it will take for this completely new feature, never considered by Serif?

If they didn't change the very fundamentals of their apps, it should be rather straight forward, since they already have their V1 file export algorithms in V1. They just need to write some exceptions for V2 features to convert that to V1 compatible data. If they went crazy on the whole way they manage things, it'd be a huge undertaking, sure, but then I'd question why they changed a clearly running system.

[Bobby Henderson]

It's pretty common for other vector graphics applications to be able to save layouts down to earlier versions of the software. Obviously newer effects and features would "break" when saving down, but if all one needed to do was get elements with a basic appearance exported to another application such a thing should be do-able.

For example, the current version of Adobe Illustrator can open an AI file made in any prior version, going all the way back to the late 1980's. In Illustrator it's possible to save AI or EPS files down to any prior Creative Suite version, as well as versions 10, 9, 8 and 3. This capability is there because a lot of other applications, such as industry-specific software, cannot import an AI, EPS or PDF file saved using the latest version of Illustrator. CorelDRAW has some backward saving capability, but not nearly as good as Illustrator. The past few versions of CorelDRAW will not open or import CDR files made prior to version 6 and will save down no farther back than version X5.

I wish there was such a thing as a truly generic, open source vector graphics format that supported all the advanced features in applications such as Illustrator but wasn't dependent on such an application. I think EPS is about the closest thing we have to that (PDF is not really an edit-friendly format; it's really for viewing & print only). But the EPS format is primitive. It doesn't support features like true transparency. SVG is not a print-friendly format.

[nitro912gr]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:31 PM, Pšenda said:

V2 Ctrl+C, V1 Ctrl+V.
Or V2 export to PDF, V1 Open/import PDF.

 

P.S. Just for interest:

How many years and development capacities (which will of course be missing when fixing errors - for example, slowing down the application, and implementing new functions) do you think it will take for this completely new feature, never considered by Serif?
Why am I asking? From your request, I got the feeling that you would definitely need this very complicated and therefore very often unsupported feature by Serif and other companies in the next few hours/days.

this is not working as you need constant access to the system with the v2 version and it is a great burden to go back and forth.

Those days I work everything in V1 till the lag issue of v2 is fixed, plus at home where I need to work too, my wife is also working on the main system that have v2 so I'm left with my old macbook that can only run v1. So if I need a file made in v2 (like everything I have worked since v2 release) I simple can't work on it.

Even if I had access to v2 on my macbook I need to spent time that I don't have, to do workarounds to get the file to v1 because at the workstation (windows) v2 lags so much that I can't work on it without restarting the app every few minutes so I need everything those days worked on v1.

 

So yeah backward compatibility is something that I and others need, and I will ask for it because I do expect at least some level of it on my tools of the trade. I see no reason being locked in the latest version of the app, the other day a friend sent me a v1 file to fix something and I only had v2 on my system so I couldn't help him. What supposed to do, to tell him to go pay for a newer version that he doesn't need?

[v_kyr]

All good points! - Though I would go one step further here ...

1. V2 apps would allow -as already everywhere above said- to export also to a stripped down V1 file format
2. Older V1 app users would get offered a seperate auxiliary Affinity "V2 format to V1 format file converter program". So they can make still some use out of V2 app format files after an appropriate conversion, without having to install a V2 app all together. Since on some older OS systems (like MacOS < Catalina) you either way can't run a V2 app version anymore.

 

 

[PaoloT]

Something to be considered is that sales of Macs have been dropping by some 30-40%. It is very likely that many people purchasing Macs not as a luxury toy, but as a work/hobby machine, are remaining with an older OS for long.

Paolo

 

[nitro912gr]

28 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

Something to be considered is that sales of Macs have been dropping by some 30-40%. It is very likely that many people purchasing Macs not as a luxury toy, but as a work/hobby machine, are remaining with an older OS for long.

Paolo

 

yeah, graphic design in general can be demanding, but most of the work doesn't require a ton of horsepower. I still use that c2d mac for light work for example, maxed out at High Sierra on OS side.

I consider getting some older i5 now that they sell out because how much value they lost with the release of M1 and M2 macs.

[deeds]

21 minutes ago, nitro912gr said:

yeah, graphic design in general can be demanding, but most of the work doesn't require a ton of horsepower. I still use that c2d mac for light work for example, maxed out at High Sierra on OS side.

 

51 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

Something to be considered is that sales of Macs have been dropping by some 30-40%. It is very likely that many people purchasing Macs not as a luxury toy, but as a work/hobby machine, are remaining with an older OS for long.

 

Both very good points.... and one more:

High Sierra is far and away the most stable for animations and audio work. As a result of significant later changes, many professionals are stuck on it (10.13.6) for those reasons, on at least one of their machines,  and will be for the foreseeable future as subsequent changes aren't ever going to be good. Like font rendering and T2 "security" interrupting audio.

Ableton Live, by way of example, is still supporting 10.13.6 in latest releases, for these very reasons.

[Bobby Henderson]

On 5/4/2023 at 1:01 PM, PaoloT said:

Something to be considered is that sales of Macs have been dropping by some 30-40%. It is very likely that many people purchasing Macs not as a luxury toy, but as a work/hobby machine, are remaining with an older OS for long.

 

I think one of the reasons why Mac sales numbers are dropping is a bunch of the product line is severely limited and has features that turn off a lot of people. For example, look at the current iMac lineup. There's just one 24" model. It kind of looks like a child's toy rather than something that would look proper on an adult's desk. The units have no expandability or user service-ability inside; all the parts are soldered-in. They max out at only 16GB of "unified" memory (translation: a graphic chip is sharing system RAM). Older iMac models could be ordered with more than 16GB of RAM and I think some past models had removable memory modules. All of Apple's notebooks have baked-in RAM. The Mac Mini also has a max of 16GB of RAM (baked-in). Only the expensive Mac Book Pro can be ordered with more than 16GB of RAM. The Mac Studio (a Mac Mini on steroids) can be ordered with more than 16GB of RAM, but its starting price is $3999. And all its parts are baked in.

The only computer Apple sells that is truly expandable after purchase is the Mac Pro tower. That thing is hella expensive.

[nitro912gr]

Just now, Bobby Henderson said:

I think one of the reasons why Mac sales numbers are dropping is a bunch of the product line is severely limited and has features that turn off a lot of people. For example, look at the current iMac lineup. There's just one 24" model. It kind of looks like a child's toy rather than something that would look proper on an adult's desk. The units have no expandability or user service-ability inside; all the parts are soldered-in. They max out at only 16GB of "unified" memory (translation: a graphic chip is sharing system RAM). Older iMac models could be ordered with more than 16GB of RAM and I think some past models had removable memory modules. All of Apple's notebooks have baked-in RAM. The Mac Mini also has a max of 16GB of RAM (baked-in). Only the expensive Mac Book Pro can be ordered with more than 16GB of RAM. The Mac Studio (a Mac Mini on steroids) can be ordered with more than 16GB of RAM, but its starting price is $3999. And all its parts are baked in.

The only computer Apple sells that is truly expandable after purchase is the Mac Pro tower. That thing is hella expensive.

thats some valid points too, I was considering to jump back to mac recently only to realize that just to add 256GB extra storage and 8GB of extra RAM on a mac mini, they actually asked me to pay another 2/3 of the price of the basic machine... and if I didn't I would be locked on that ram and storage till I replace the machine, which in the end made me reconsider.

[Bobby Henderson]

The only new Apple product I personally would consider buying any time in the next couple or so years is a replacement for my iPad Pro, which is now about 5 or so years old. My work desktop PC is a Dell XPS model and I use an Alienware 17" notebook at home. My smart phone is a Galaxy S22 Ultra; I used a Note 5 for about 6 years prior to upgrading. Yeah, I'm not one to just go with one brand of computing platform. That just me though.

[dcr]

20 hours ago, Bobby Henderson said:

The only new Apple product I personally would consider buying any time in the next couple or so years is a replacement for my iPad Pro, which is now about 5 or so years old.

I am the opposite.  I really have no plans to purchase a new iPad.  I have almost replaced my aging iPad with a new-to-me MacBook Air.  Maybe I might consider an iPad mini at some point in the future as an iPod/iPad replacement but other than that, I plan to stick with MacBooks of some variation though, as others have mentioned, I am not fond of the newer ones where RAM and especially storage is not user replaceable.  The new-to-me MacBook Air is an older model that I can upgrade the hard drive in if I want to.

And that cycles back to a +1 for backwards compatibility.  I purchased the v2 apps but I only use v1 apps.  Since the v2 apps require Internet activation, I can not be certain that I would be able to use them into the future.  Already went through that with Adobe and their "aging" activation servers that "had" to be shut down because a huge corporation can't possibly afford to port to new servers.    With the Affinity v1 apps, I know I can install and use them (as long as I have something functional to run them on) regardless of whether Serif has active servers or not.  With v2, there is no such confidence.

My preference would be an activation system that did not require Internet activation of any sort but that is something that appears is never going to happen.  So backwards compatibility where you could save v2 files in a v1 format would at least provide some assurance that files could be opened in the future if need be, even if some things might have to be outlined or otherwise downgraded to work in v1.

This is especially important, IMHO, in Publisher.  With Designer or Photo, you have multiple export options that allow files to be opened in other design or image programs.  But with Publisher, you can't export to a suitable format that you can open in InDesign, QuarkXPress, Scribus or even Publisher v1.  PDF?  Okay but that's not the same as something equivalent to IDML.

[Bobby Henderson]

The only reason I bought my iPad was due to the Apple Pencil and its on-screen drawing quality. It's the best bang-for-the-buck option that exists. The newest 12.9" iPad Pro models have a really beautiful, wide gamut screen. Of course a reasonably well-equipped model costs as much as a mid-range notebook PC.

Regarding software activation, I think it's here to stay unfortunately. From the developers' point of view I get it. The so-called "honor system" just doesn't work.

I'm not sure if there are laws on the books about it, but I think software developers are supposed to make good (to a limited degree) on allowing customers to continue to use their software somehow after they turn off activation servers. In Adobe's case I know they've provided activation-free serial numbers to CS2 and CS3 users when those activation servers were shut down. They also provided an activation-free serial number to Freehand MX users when Adobe turned off those activation servers. In a lot of cases the customer must still have their original product CDs (and a working optical disc drive) in order to install the software. And they need a compatible operating system. Most of this vintage software will not install in modern versions of OSX or Windows. One either needs a vintage computer or a vintage OS running in a virtual machine.

IMHO, a bigger liability is software companies cutting file>open/import support for files saved in prior versions of their applications. For example, the last few versions of CorelDRAW have not been able to open or import CDR files made in version 5 or earlier. By contrast the current version of Illustrator can open any previous version AI or EPS file. Apple created a huge fiasco when they released Final Cut X -featuring no ability to open existing FCP projects saved in version 7 or earlier. Some of Apple's FCP users bolted to Premiere Pro (which could import FCP projects).

I've been doing graphics work for over 30 years now. I've seen a lot of applications come and go. I remember hearing people extolling the virtues of digital technology and how someone could put a CD-ROM in a time capsule, dig it up 100 years later and the data would still be "perfect." Even when I heard that claim a generation ago I laughed at how utterly ridiculous it was. Digital data is fragile and fleeting. There are so many factors that can destroy one's ability to access and use their data. I like using the movie Jurassic Park as an example when talking about this subject. If somebody wanted to go back and re-render all the CG imagery in 4K they would have to start from scratch. All the applications they used to model and animate the imagery (Alias Power Animator and SoftImage) are dead. The whole Silicon Graphics IRIX platform has been dead for decades. If ILM still has data tapes of the work they wouldn't be able to read any of the stuff unless they had working SGI workstations and peripherals. They can still re-scan the original 35mm camera film negatives of the live action footage though.

In a perfect world we would have an "open," generic vector graphics standard that could support all the bells and whistles found in commercial applications like Illustrator. Nothing like that exists currently. EPS is very limited; it does not support true transparency effects for one thing. SVG is also very limited; it can't be used for professional level print production. PDF is partially open source. But PDF is technically a print-only and read-only format. PDF files are not meant for further editing.

[debraspicher]

I was following along with this thread quite nicely until I got to the part where members have started geeking out on Macs. A small sign is put out that there is a potential chance to socialize about Macs and a small convention forms around it every single time that happens. It could be a Windows thread. It could be a rumor thread. Doesn't matter. It's time for our weekly convention on Macs.

On 5/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, nitro912gr said:

What supposed to do, to tell him to go pay for a newer version that he doesn't need?

Well, yes

[shushustorm]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:21 AM, nitro912gr said:

What supposed to do, to tell him to go pay for a newer version that he doesn't need?

..and that might not even work on his machine.. so that he has to buy and setup a new machine, with other software possibly not working any more due to OS update? .. Just to be able to be compatible?

[dcr]

12 hours ago, Bobby Henderson said:

In Adobe's case I know they've provided activation-free serial numbers to CS2 and CS3 users when those activation servers were shut down.

Only if you happened to find out about it and managed to swap out your license before they stopped offering the activation-free serial numbers and downloads without notice.

[Bobby Henderson]

1 hour ago, dcr said:

Only if you happened to find out about it and managed to swap out your license before they stopped offering the activation-free serial numbers and downloads without notice.

I don't know about you, but every time Adobe was going to shut off activation servers for a Creative Suite product I bought and registered I was notified by email about it and how I could get either an activation free serial number and/or an activation-free installer with its own serial number. They tended to change approaches from one release to the next.

[dcr]

24 minutes ago, Bobby Henderson said:

I don't know about you, but every time Adobe was going to shut off activation servers for a Creative Suite product I bought and registered I was notified by email about it and how I could get either an activation free serial number and/or an activation-free installer with its own serial number. They tended to change approaches from one release to the next.

My CS3 applications were purchased directly from Adobe and registered and I did not receive any notifications.  I did receive plenty of sales pitches for Creative Cloud.

[nitro912gr]

I wanted to sake this tread back up, because apparently it is becoming a huge issue for me because I started sharing files with a client and he bought the newer version of publisher while I have only upgraded Designer to v2 as this is where I mostly work anyway. So if he send anything back to me I just can't open it and I don't wish to get the newer version of publisher just for one job (actually even the v1 wasn't something I needed, I only got it for supporting serif, haven't used it more than 2-3 times).

Please, we need some form of compatibility between versions, it doesn't have to be perfect, it only need to work somewhat.

[walt.farrell]

49 minutes ago, nitro912gr said:

I wanted to sake this tread back up, because apparently it is becoming a huge issue for me because I started sharing files with a client and he bought the newer version of publisher while I have only upgraded Designer to v2 as this is where I mostly work anyway. So if he send anything back to me I just can't open it and I don't wish to get the newer version of publisher just for one job (actually even the v1 wasn't something I needed, I only got it for supporting serif, haven't used it more than 2-3 times).

Please, we need some form of compatibility between versions, it doesn't have to be perfect, it only need to work somewhat.

Designer 2 can Open Publisher 2 files, though with some limits on functionality of course. What kind of things do you need to do with that file for your client?

And note that, should you wish to get Publisher 2, the 25% off sale ends tomorrow.

[Bobby Henderson]

I don't think it's a software developer's fault for people not knowing the ins and outs of exchanging files. I'm using the latest versions of Affinity Designer, Adobe Illustrator and CorelDRAW. But if someone requests art files from me I'm not going to simply click the "save" button and blindly email him what I have. I always ask what software they're using as well as the versions of that software. Then I provide files down-saved to the versions of software they're using. I also try to be careful about using certain kinds of application-dependent effects and features in artwork if I want that artwork to be able to export to non-native environments.

There are certain features I want incorporated into future releases of Affinity Designer. Support for variable fonts is very high on that list of "wants." I know good and well art files made in a future version of Affinity Designer that allow variable font use are not going to be backward compatible with older versions. That has been the reality of all vector graphics applications going back 30+ years.

[nitro912gr]

8 hours ago, Bobby Henderson said:

I don't think it's a software developer's fault for people not knowing the ins and outs of exchanging files. I'm using the latest versions of Affinity Designer, Adobe Illustrator and CorelDRAW. But if someone requests art files from me I'm not going to simply click the "save" button and blindly email him what I have. I always ask what software they're using as well as the versions of that software. Then I provide files down-saved to the versions of software they're using. I also try to be careful about using certain kinds of application-dependent effects and features in artwork if I want that artwork to be able to export to non-native environments.

There are certain features I want incorporated into future releases of Affinity Designer. Support for variable fonts is very high on that list of "wants." I know good and well art files made in a future version of Affinity Designer that allow variable font use are not going to be backward compatible with older versions. That has been the reality of all vector graphics applications going back 30+ years.

and where is the ability to down-save to older versions in affinity then?