Keyboard shortcuts for non-englisch keyboards.

[NotMyFault]

please consider to add default keyboard shortcuts without special Charakters like [] for non-englisch keyboards (e.g. Downloadable presets, or getting a selection for keyboard layout independent from UI language and from system keyboard settings).

Another option would be if they simply work (in combination with modifier keys).

Some of the most used shortcuts like [] to change brush width or move layers in layer stack don’t work on Apple devices with German keyboard layouts.

• these keys require modifier keys for base keys, so Affinity doesn’t recognize them (modifier mismatch)
• these keys are not labeled on Apple keyboards (in contrast to Windows keyboards)
• Requiring users to change them individually is waist of user effort, and leads to incompatible personal settings.
• users working on multiple devices have this effort on every device, or need to manually sync these settings
• it is another hurdle for beginners who try this keys and see it not working.

[loukash]

+100000!

Especially since replacement shortcuts without modifier still refuse to stick in secondary personas (Pixel in ADe, Designer and Photo in APu, etc).

[loukash]

In desperation, I've actually modified my keyboard layout to include the [ and ] keys as fn-F11 and fn-F12 in order to have them handy in Affinity when needed. 

 

[NotMyFault]

I remember having similar issues during university study on SUN OS terminals about 1988. Got used to write blind on any keyboards by memorizing all these special keys positions, and ignoring any labeling. But it is now 2013, I’m 25 years older and no longer able to do this brainf*** after working 20 years on windows PCs where this issue is non-existent. And I refuse to pay 160 to 299€ for a second English Apple keyboard, or use a crappy cheap (black) Logitech keyboard.

There were even keyboards with mini LED available changing the layout dynamically. 

[loukash]

39 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

But it is now 2013

Oh, is it? Am I caught in a time loop, after all?! (Just last month I wrote lyrics about time travel for a song by one of the bands I play with… Has my dream come true?)

 

43 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

And I refuse to pay 160 to 299€ for a second English Apple keyboard, or use a crappy cheap (black) Logitech keyboard.

You're aware of Ukelele and Karabiner? 
As for [ & ], Karabiner was of no help due to the method how Affinity "reads" keyboard input. Hence Ukelele to the rescue, "hacking" the F-keys I hardly use the hard way.

[v_kyr]

Just use an appropriate custom keyboard layout for such tasks. - What I use for coding, though slightly changed to my individual needs here ...

• Deutsches Keyboard Layout zum Programmieren auf macOS

1 hour ago, NotMyFault said:

And I refuse to pay 160 to 299€ for a second English Apple keyboard, or use a crappy cheap (black) Logitech keyboard.

Not so fast man, some of Logitech keyboards aren't that bad for such tasks, as the white MX Keys Mini Mac (though always wonder why the fullsize MX Keys one for Macs isn't offerded in white too here), or a G715 white (which is sadly expensive), or even better a G915 TKL white (even expensive, it's pretty good). - Or in case of Mac keyb resembling like the Mathias brand has some too.

[NotMyFault]

Off topic: what bothers me most is that cmd-q (Windows for @ sign) closes the app on Mac, e.g. browser, after spending time to fill in forms when I use this key automatically from muscle memory. Whoever designed the keyboards shortcuts in that way was evil. Very evil.

[v_kyr]

3 hours ago, Red Sands said:

Doesn't activate these features (and doesn't on MX either I can see) - but the symbols Logitech has printed on the keys anyway, misleading and ridiculous. You have to go into the support forums and read angry users who discover that there actually IS no workaround, not even what the support indicates. It was flat out wrong, which people get even angrier about. The previous bluetooth keyboard I bought for another iPad died after just over a year of infrequent use. I read that too, was perfectly common. So my eagerness to buy more bluetooth keyboards from Logitech is now zero. 

Depends on what's the cause for certain misbehavior (... if the firmware version needs an update, or if it's in combo with some third party mouse ... etc.) and where you looked for possible solutions. - Further even plain Apple hardware won't do it always and the MacOS version (Monterey vs Ventura) needs sometimes to be forced to do so ...

• Mission Control sometimes stops working

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3 hours ago, Red Sands said:

But yes, that's a lot of shortcuts to change if you just want to use the physically same keys as [ ], which can be way off on other keyboards. And since you simply never use [ ] in any context other than programming, nobody remembers how to access [ ] on non-English keyboard layouts.

Just for those two [ ] it isn't that much work on QWERTZ keyboards, that's what tools like Ukelele are meant for. - If you use QWERTY keyb's you don't have that problems at all.

3 hours ago, Red Sands said:

As shortcuts on setups with non-English keyboards, they are therefore virtually useless.

Blame Serif for those initial keyb shortcut decision, on german keyboards some key combo of < > would have been a better choice!

[loukash]

2 hours ago, v_kyr said:

it isn't that much work on QWERTZ keyboards, that's what tools like Ukelele are meant for

Exactly. Since 2006 I'm using a customized layout that matches the Swiss German keyboard but that also easily allows me to type Czech diacritics at the same time. And over the years, I'm only adding or changing other characters as needed. The [ ] as fn-F11/F12 was just the recent addition.

Note that in Ukelele you have to add characters to F keys manually by key codes, and they won't work for regular typing. It's really just an "exclusive Affinity hack" for the secondary personas in APu and ADe. In the primary personas I use ö and ä in place of [ and ].

[NotMyFault]

6 minutes ago, N.P.M. said:

Why not simply set a custom shortkey yourself?

Because Affinity is transferring an Application issue to every individual user. Other Apps are totally able to avoid or solve this issue for all users, and do not bother users at all to find individual solutions. Your viewpoint might be influenced by not affected by a non-English keyboard. But about 70-80% of the world users is actually using a non-English keyboard and suffers the issue of getting non-working presets, not-working help files. The ignorance of Affinity / Serif over all non-English languages speaks for itself. 

[v_kyr]

1 hour ago, Red Sands said:

Many - if not all - of these workarounds does not work on an iPad. 

iPad might be another story, don't know, never used a physical real keyboard for that. Though there might be some reason, namely that Apple can better sell their own pricy auxialiary equipment. Also I doubt that they (Apple) will tell every third party hardware vendor how to make the right use with everything which is encripted in iPad OS or MacOS etc. So after all, they want to retain (and have) their competitive advantage.

[v_kyr]

27 minutes ago, Red Sands said:

What I do know is that Logitech assigned F1 to F3 for bluetooth configuration with up to three devices, thus their own needs (they weren't forced to use these keys now that they made a special keyboard for Mac), and moved the Mac functionality (really just the symbols) from these keys to F6 and F7.

AFAI recall most Logitech keyboards (their MX line etc.) were originated for Windows first, then afterwards they started to offer/make Mac layouts out of those too (in terms of keycap labeling and colorings). Thus all in all it will be nothing else like a recolored and keycap label changed keyboard on the same base as the initial Win one. Functionality wise I doubt that something keyb hardware internal has changed here for the Mac variants at all, so it's all at best just software based keycode remapping for Mac vs Windows differences here. - So there's nothing really different here between the Win & Mac versions other than outer cosmetics. Also I remember that some Mac user had both a MX keys Win + Mac version and told that there is absolutely no difference in behavior between these other than optical keycap labelings.

27 minutes ago, Red Sands said:

If both Apple and Logitech are at fault, then no one is working for our interests.

Well from an Apple product and then one which has been explicitely crafted for an iPad Pro, I would at least expect it to work the right intended way. Third parties usually don't have and know all the niceties and internals here, they mostly have to find out on their own how to address certain things then correctly.

[v_kyr]

6 minutes ago, Red Sands said:

Apple Magic Keyboard is not made specifically for iPad Pro, but for all Apple devices.

I know, I have one of the smaller BT ones too and also a regular full size one (... beside some 10x other brand keyboards).

[v_kyr]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:00 PM, NotMyFault said:

There were even keyboards with mini LED available changing the layout dynamically.

Forgotten to ask if you meant the Art Lebedev OLED ones here (?) or something else instead ...

• https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/
• https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/
• https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/concept/
• ... etc.

However, often keyboard ergonomics do also play an important role here, especially for typists and coders etc. So things as the key button shapes and sizes (full size and correct key row alignments...), if trough shape and non-slip, the keycap/switch travel and pressure point. - Also of course the typing loudness, here then mechanical switches vs rubber dome ... etc.

 

10 hours ago, Red Sands said:

The Logitech stone I will find a new home.

Haha, though in terms of keycup forms some of Logitech keyboard designs aren't bad, especially here the MX Keys ones whitch are trough shape and non-slip. Weight is sometimes also not bad in terms of not slipping much around when used on desks and other surfaces and the like. Further being able to angle keyb foots and having good rubber feets is also valuable to have. - In terms of that the Apple keyboards aren't very ergonomic and there are much better ones in this regard on the market.

[NotMyFault]

1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

Forgotten to ask if you meant the Art Lebedev OLED ones here (?) or something else instead ...

There were several (vaporware) similar products, some mentioned in wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard

Similar keyboards[edit]

The patent for this "Display Keyboard" expired in 2016. However, the first programmable LCD keyboard^[10]was developed in the mid-1980s in Germany. This keyboard, sold under the LCBoard name in the U.S. until 1999, contained many of the features of the Optimus keyboard including monochrome graphic icons on each keyboard key, macro programming, context sensitive and application dependent switching between functions. S. Bigbie et al. published related ideas in an IBM Technical Disclosure Bulletin (Vol. 21 No. 2 July 1978), as did Alan Bagley of Hewlett-Packard in (U.S. Patent 4,078,257).

E Ink technology has been used in a product by Sonder Design.^[11]

A concept design using E Ink technology was created by Maxim Mezentsev and Aleksander Suhih in 2013.^[12] A similar design by Jaasta was also created in 2014 but was never built since they used Sonder Design's prior art.^[13][14]

[v_kyr]

15 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

There were several (vaporware) similar products, some mentioned in wikipedia

And some here too ...

• Ko-fi - Comparing With Existing Projects

[v_kyr]

51 minutes ago, Red Sands said:

I actually prefer Apple's keyboards ergonomically. Maybe the newest ones have become too flat with too discrete keys. I have the oldest v1 on the right here, and I think it's a magically ergonomic design with good feel in the keys. They travel a bit more than they do on the newest models.

The older one (the right one) is overall of sturdier and better build. Also it has a better angle and key travel ways, which can be seen even on your screenshot. The left one (I actually have) is pretty flat and not that good in terms of key travel way and typing feeling. The only good one of that is, it fits easily even in small bags.

 

51 minutes ago, Red Sands said:

Logitech just can't figure out how to make one for Apple without mixing plastic and technological clutter with Apple's concept. Instant fail.

I'm sure they could if they wanted to do so, as they have such better metal keyboards for Win already (and even with nice low profile choosable mechanical switches)...

... but you will find such ones only among their gaming line keyboards and primarly layouted for Win.

For some which resemble Apple keyboards in look & feel, those here from Mathias might be an alternative. Or a price cheap Cherry KC6000 Mac.

[v_kyr]

1 hour ago, Red Sands said:

Logitech has then made formidable and beautiful mice in between, while Apple has made the worst mice in the history of the world. Ah, the complex lack of logic we must navigate.

Well mices are another theme, there I'm not that much in luck with Logitech, have 3 mices from them and only one of them works flawlessly after years. Two of them under MacOS suffer from the double-click syndrome (any single click generates two instead and nothing I fiddled aound with helped to adjust or fix that under MacOS). - The Apple mice, even it does what it should, is a pain for the hand wrists when heavy used. I once had to do a lot auf Mausschubsen work one day and afterwards the hand wrist was overloaded and hurt for a long time. That was a lesson for me and as a result I bought an ergonomic vertical mouse (no not from Logitech, instead a cheaper Asian model), since then never had wrist problems anymore. And that mouse also works under MacOS without creating double clicks right out of the box.

Usually you get quality wise what you pay for, meaning here that the better things (design, ergonomics, materials used, build quality, drivers...) are always more expensive. But sometimes there are also few exceptions.

[v_kyr]

2 hours ago, Red Sands said:

I gave it to charity, but I'm not sure they even could give it away. And it's too light to be a doorstop.

😄 Well an expensive doorstopper!

BTW here's a Matias keyboard short review by 9to5Mac on Youtube.