Getting ICC profiles to work on Win 10

[VolkerMB]

Hi there!

I've an issue with colour management on Windows 10 (22H2) that is not limited to Affinity. But in the Affinity Apps the issue is clearly visible - and drives me nuts!

That is my setup:

• Windows 10 (22H2), AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT
• 1. display: EIZO CS240, runs in AdobeRGB mode
• 2. display: Dell U2417H, runs in sRGB mode
• Windows Color Management: Display 1 set to individual ICC profile (AdobeRGB, created by ColorNavigator7)
• Windows Color Management: Display 2 set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (see screenshots)

One would expect that all colors that are within the sRGB range are displayed in the same way on both monitors (at least in color managed applications). But that is not the case. On the EIZO everything is saturated and bright, on the DELL all colors are dull and dimmed. As if Windows doesn't respect the ICC profiles.

If I add a sRGB softproof layer in Affinity (1.10.6) in a AdobeRGB document the EIZO shows also no difference in color - which surprises me.

Any ideas what I am doing wrong?

Thanks,
Volker

 

[v_kyr]

See related to that theme here ...

• How to use an Adobe RGB monitor on Windows?

[debraspicher]

Each display must be calibrated individually. It can be done manually or with hardware (x-rite, etc). Hardware creates an individualized ICC profile for each monitor that contain the adjustments required for the LUT table to match. No match is perfect though, so there will always be some variation. Generally, this is done monthly because monitors change over time or as often as the user requires. For example, projects that require working with delicate spot colors.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/monitor-calibration.htm

[VolkerMB]

3 hours ago, debraspicher said:

Each display must be calibrated individually. It can be done manually or with hardware (x-rite, etc). Hardware creates an individualized ICC profile for each monitor that contain the adjustments required for the LUT table to match. No match is perfect though, so there will always be some variation. Generally, this is done monthly because monitors change over time or as often as the user requires. For example, projects that require working with delicate spot colors.

I couldn't agree more. But my displays are hardware calibrated on a regular base and use that specific profile. However, the contrast in colour between the two displays is so strong, that I have a hard time to believe that everything works according to plan.

@v_kyr Thanks for that link. Looks like a long read...

[v_kyr]

Just now, VolkerMB said:

Thanks for that link. Looks like a long read

Yes (leider ist es dort eine etwas längere Konversation, aber Color Management ist mitunter ja auch ein schwieriges Thema), but it covers exactly the same Win problems and the one or other participating guy there on dpreview might have some tip.

[debraspicher]

Just now, VolkerMB said:

I couldn't agree more. But my displays are hardware calibrated on a regular base and use that specific profile. However, the contrast in colour between the two displays is so strong, that I have a hard time to believe that everything works according to plan.

@v_kyr Thanks for that link. Looks like a long read...

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're aiming to do. As I see it, the sRGB profile for the first display in the OP is an "out of the box" profile, iirc. It's not a display calibrated profile. In Affinity, if you required sRGB, you would load it within the program, but your monitors use the ICC profiles that are color managed for the appropriate LUT values so that that profile (Affinity->sRGB) displays correctly across displays.

sRGB will limit the gamut to a "safe range", so it's not surprising you are seeing a dramatic shift in contrast. It's been so long since I've "hand calibrated" anything, so hard to know what I would recommend for the OS profile.

If you were doing hardware calibration (not by the buttons on the monitor but an actual device), it should've generated ICC profiles and those are the ones you would be using for the OS. Then whatever your "output" profile (sRGB, etc) within Affinity.

[VolkerMB]

Well, I doubt that the CS240(28990025)03AdobeRGB.icc is a standard profile shiped with the display instead of a bespoke one. And the last time I checked I was able to tell the difference between a tiny button on my monitor from an iStudio colorimeter.

However, thanks for looking into the issue.

[v_kyr]

21 minutes ago, VolkerMB said:

I doubt that the CS240(28990025)03AdobeRGB.icc is a standard profile shiped with the display instead of a bespoke one

Well your EIZO should offer pretty good calibration capabilities and also eases that via their specific ColorNavigator software here. - For the Dell can't tell, though I doubt it plays in the same league here.

[debraspicher]

5 hours ago, VolkerMB said:

Well, I doubt that the CS240(28990025)03AdobeRGB.icc is a standard profile shiped with the display instead of a bespoke one. And the last time I checked I was able to tell the difference between a tiny button on my monitor from an iStudio colorimeter.

However, thanks for looking into the issue.

Thank you for clarifying. In short, your first display is using a profile not designed to be used for color management in monitors. In this case, it's more for output (web browsers, for use in applications, distributing media, etc). It's also being contrasted against a profile with significantly higher color gamut (more saturated). I own an X-Rite but I'm not familiar with the software you are using. I recommend to use a hardware calibrated ICC profile for the first one, not anything OS-provided. It will likely limit your contrast.

I've color managed quite a few displays over the years and I can get multiple displays (2-3 at a time) to be fairly close provided the monitor itself is up to it. sRGB was intended to be a "web safe" profile to keep imagery consistent across multiple display configurations. As it is, monitors have gotten much better over the years that sRGB is not a real struggle for them. (So you shouldn't have to target it specifically) Another issue that can sometimes crop up (if this does not apply, just ignore...), if one of your monitors is using HDMI output, be sure that its black level is set correctly in the OSD. Sometimes when using calibrator software, it knocks that setting back out and it will utterly destroy contrast.

sRGB vs AdobeRGB

(Edit) More information on this topic for people who may find later in the forums:
https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/srgb-bad-monitor-profile.html

[v_kyr]

49 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

Thank you for clarifying. In short, your first display is using a profile not designed to be used for color management in monitors. In this case, it's more for output (web browsers, for use in applications, distributing media, etc). It's also being contrasted against a profile with significantly higher color gamut (more saturated).

AFAI understood it, the OPs first monitor is the Eizo (wide color gamut, 99% of Adobe RGB) one here (?).

• https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/products/model/CS240#tab01

Related to that "CS240(28990025)03AdobeRGB.icc" color icc profile, that's for sure not a default one. Those profiles which usually come together with the monitor can be found for example here (monitor model related) ...

• ICC Profile & Drivers
• ColorEdge CS240 = CS240INF.zip

 

[debraspicher]

Just now, v_kyr said:

AFAI understood it, the OPs first monitor is the Eizo (wide color gamut, 99% of Adobe RGB) one here (?).

• https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/products/model/CS240#tab01

Related to that "CS240(28990025)03AdobeRGB.icc" color icc profile, that's for sure not a default one. Those profiles which usually come together with the monitor can be found for example here (monitor model related) ...

• ICC Profile & Drivers
• ColorEdge CS240 = CS240INF.zip

 

❤️ Thanks. Yes, I misread it as first display since it is the first attachment. (When I read first time, I thought they were in order) The secondary monitor then is using the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile which is a color standard, not a monitor profile ("sRGB Color Space.icm"). See below, it is in my system as well:



That's why I also said I may not understand their "aim", because setting as default profile may be intentional. Color management is very complicated, so there may be other ways of doing things even I'm not aware of and I'm open to that. Still, I get good results with additional displays and leave sRGB/Adobe/etc color proofing to applications (Affinity, etc). Last time I tried to a default sRGB profile configuration (during my CRT days), it only produced a dull display.

[v_kyr]

31 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

Yes, I misread it as first display since it is the first attachment.

Yes, since the text said 1. Eizo 2. Dell, but then the screenshots showed an oposite order here (aka 2. and then 1.). And yes, color management can always also be a difficult theme, especially on different OS systems, application software and different hardware devices (monitors, printers etc.).

BUT at least the common denominator sRGB should be everywhere easier to overall deal with among all involved devices here. - So the contrary would be here if the OP setups the Eizo (1. monitor) also to sRGB and compares that color wise with what the Dell (2. monitor) shows here.

The Adobe RGB gammut is better suited for cam RAW image development etc. and display printing proves (as far as a monitor/display supports a higher wide color gamut spectrum) to some higher end output photo printers then. But not that much for common/casual display output based workings like generating output images for common web usage or the like. - Another theme here is also how accurate certain software is at all, since not all are color managed and even if they are, there are sometimes still huge differences between certain color managed software/applications here.

[debraspicher]

22 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Yes, since the text said 1. Eizo 2. Dell, but then the screenshots showed an oposite order here (aka 2. and then 1.). And yes, color management can always also be a difficult theme, especially on different OS systems, application software and different hardware devices (monitors, printers etc.).

BUT at least the common denominator sRGB should be everywhere easier to overall deal with among all involved devices here. - So the contrary would be here if the OP setups the Eizo (1. monitor) also to sRGB and compares that with what the Dell (2. monitor) shows here.

The Adobe RGB gammut is better suited for cam RAW image development etc. and display printing proves (as far as a monitor/display supports a higher wide color gamut spectrum) to some higher end output photo printers then. But not that much for common/casual display output based workings like generating output images for common web usage or the like. - Another theme here is also how accurate certain software is at all, since not all are color managed and even if they are, there are sometimes still huge differences between certain color managed software/applications here.

They could certainly try that to see if it can achieve consistent results, but then both displays will suffer in being limited to sRGB capability, sadly. It's like calibrating a Ferrari to run with a Pinto. (I'm not a car person, but that sounds accurate)

FWIW, I prefer Adobe RGB as well for image output these days. Browsers and even many applications are way better now about color management and so can easily read embedded ICC profiles. 10-bit displays are also becoming more common place. And since mobile tends to be ahead of the curve in terms of display technology, then high gamuts displays will become even more the norm. sRGB is certainly safer for web design, etc, but for illustrations/etc, I still have sRGB in my presets because it's absolutely necessary to work in it and some applications will do special handling in certain areas (such as thumbnails). (Edit) I basically do not want the application handling any sRGB conversion, it'll look like crap). However, I prefer to "work in" and proof for Adobe RGB in 99% of cases. That extra "pop" in color is much more pleasing to the eye than trying to work out compatibility in sRGB. So I'm OK in those situations to convert workspace (Adobe) to sRGB on output using a preset and it works out much better than the application/browser handling it itself and that is where dull colors, etc is virtually guaranteed. (I'm not an expert in this area, btw, just an enthusiast)

I still do calibrate in ICC v2 because I remember for a long time, v4 support lagged behind v2 in many applications and some browsers. It's probably changed for the better now, but I keep it there in case I open something that it doesn't support. It's still the default in X-rite's bundled app for whatever reason.

[v_kyr]

6 hours ago, debraspicher said:

but then both displays will suffer in being limited to sRGB capability, sadly. It's like calibrating a Ferrari to run with a Pinto. (I'm not a car person, but that sounds accurate)

I like that good synonymous comparison!

6 hours ago, debraspicher said:

However, I prefer to "work in" and proof for Adobe RGB in 99% of cases. That extra "pop" in color is much more pleasing to the eye than trying to work out compatibility in sRGB. So I'm OK in those situations to convert workspace (Adobe) to sRGB on output using a preset and it works out much better than the application/browser handling it itself and that is where dull colors, etc is virtually guaranteed.

Another point here is, that all better cams (Nikon, Canon, Sony ...etc.) do internally offer to use also Adobe RGB and on some it's the defaut setup. - Though RAW converter software usually operate/work internally in/with even much higher gamuts (color spaces) like ROMM RGB/ProPhoto RGB for the RAW development of photos.

Webbrowser software is usually not the best in terms of color management support, they mostly offer just plain sRGB here. Other software like a bunch of freeware, opensource and even commercial software uses LittleCMS as their underlayed color engine (as does the Affinity software), since it's free and since it's not trivial to implement a good one here on your own. - Though one of the best and entirely implemented on it's own stems from (no surprise here) Adobe. Their apps like PS/PSE etc. handle all the color management on their own with their own color engine.

[VolkerMB]

@debraspicher Sorry for the somewhat snarky comment at night time.

Apparently I didn't explain the situation well enough. So, here is my second attempt:

• My computer runs Windows 10 (22H2) and features a AMD Radeon RX5700XT graphics adapter.
• Windows own color management is configured to use a bespoke AdobeRGB color profile for my first display (EIZO) and a standard sRGB profile for my second dsiplay (DELL).
• The profile has been created by me using Eizo's ColorNavigator7 and the X-Rite i1 Display pro colorimeter. The color space target was AdobeRGB.
• The Eizo display itself is set to AdobeRGB while there is no such setting for the Dell display (it is not capable of displaying anything beyond sRGB).

I am aware the the Windows UI and plenty of apps are not color managed at all. But: Lightroom, DXO Photolab and the Affinity apps are color managed. Let us focus on them - and how colors are actually rendered in these apps on my systems.

One example: Affinity Photo 2 is set to AdobeRGB as the standard color space. So any new document using the standard color space will show quite powerful colors on the Eizo display and "muted" colors on the Dell display. That is expected.

However: If I create a new document within the sRGB color space in Affinity, I only expect a mild difference in rendering the image on both displays. As sRGB is the much smaller color space, the color managed Eizo should be able to reproduce the colors propperly. But that is not the case. They remain unnaturally bright and powerful as if they were still in AdobeRGB. 

I took a laptop of mine with a sRGB display and hold it next to the Dell display. The result: very minor differences in color rendering. So, I guess the Dell renders the sRGB colors decently. With the Eizo it is a different story - no matter what I set as the color space in Affinity. Always bright and oversaturated (skin tones are a joke).

The same behaviour is visible with Lightroom and Photolab. It looks as if there is no color management at all.

So, I'm lost.

 

 

 

 

[v_kyr]

8 minutes ago, VolkerMB said:

However: If I create a new document within the sRGB color space in Affinity, I only expect a mild difference in rendering the image on both displays. As sRGB is the much smaller color space, the color managed Eizo should be able to reproduce the colors propperly. But that is not the case. They remain unnaturally bright and powerful as if they were still in AdobeRGB.

For the Affinity document in sRGB, do you mean for photos which are placed (embbeded) into the doc, where in turn the photos may have also their own embedded icc-profile, or instead generally no matter if photos here or some own shape/line drawings etc.?

Next for the procedure you described, what happens if you change the Eizo's internal setting to sRGB instead  here, is there then still a visable color difference?

[VolkerMB]

I made a simple test without using any photo. I just created a new document in sRGB color space in APhoto 2 and draw some rectangles on it. One in orange, one in green and one in purple. It renders completely different on both displays.

Then I switched the Eizo internally to sRGB (and changed the Windows color management for the Eizo to sRGB as well) and compared both displays. Now, they are in line (almost). Which, again, leaves me to believe that something is broken here. 

[v_kyr]

8 minutes ago, VolkerMB said:

Now, they are in line (almost). Which, again, leaves me to believe that something is broken here. 

I think or can imagine, that the Eizo's internal color mode settings may be primarily used here and thus do somehow precede OS & software based settings here.

[rvst]

You're using the wrong ICC profile for your Dell monitor. You can't use the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile, since it's not a display profile. 

Set the monitor hardware settings to sRGB, then use Displaycal to calibrate and profile your Dell monitor. 

The EIZO looks to be a custom calibration and profiling, since you noted that you used ColorNavigator and the filename seems to indicate a properly calibrated and profiled monitor. 

[v_kyr]

For that Dell U2417H monitor see also on TFT central ...

• Dell U2417H

... and for ICC-profiles ...

• https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/icc_profiles/p3
• https://tftcentral.co.uk/icc_profiles/dell_u2417h.icc
• https://tftcentral.co.uk/icc_profiles/dell_u2417h_user.icc
• ...etc.

[VolkerMB]

@rvst At least Windows flags the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile as a display profile... But I am not an expert.

Therefore, I did install a dedicaded profile for the Dell U2417H from TFTCentral as suggested by @v_kyr. However, my eyes don't spot a difference to the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile. After having looked at several test images for at least 10min I'm under the impression that there is a tiny, tiny, tiny difference in how green is rendered. But apart from that...

Unfortunately the Dell display is not the troublemaker here. It is the Eizo display. So, I called some friends and get hold of a Benq wide gamut monitor which I will install later today for test purposes. I'll report back later.

[rvst]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:09 AM, VolkerMB said:

Unfortunately the Dell display is not the troublemaker here. It is the Eizo display. So, I called some friends and get hold of a Benq wide gamut monitor which I will install later today for test purposes. I'll report back later.

You might still be having trouble with the Windows profile loader and some application that is unloading the calibration on the fly.

I have a hardware calibratable monitor. What I usually do is to use the vendor's tool to calibrate the monitor and write the calibration to its hardware LUT, then I then use Displaycal to profile the already calibrated monitor (discarding the profile generated by the vendor software). I use Displaycal's profile loader to load the display profile, so if it ever gets unloaded then Displaycal will automatically reload it. 

Suggest trying this. It would be a shame to get rid of the EIZO. 

[RichardMH]

I have a similar set up with Benq and LG monitors. Just calibrate each and no problems. The sRGB softproof problem is known to users. Do a search. My Benq lets me store calibrations and I have one set to sRGB so I "softproof" sRGB with that.

[v_kyr]

That Eizo and it's accompanied software do offer too ...

Quote

There are many color modes stored in the monitor's memory, such as sRGB, AdobeRGB or Rec709, which can be adjusted and calibrated with the help of the ColorNavigator.

There are three different methods available for switching between the different modes: The modes can be switched using the mode button and on-screen display, using ColorNavigator and by clicking on the ColorNavigator symbol in the taskbar. In all three cases, the correct ICC monitor profile is also automatically activated in the operating system, so that color management-capable programs always take the activated monitor settings into account and always display the right colors.

The calibration targets can be modified, calibrated and renamed at any time.
...

 

[VolkerMB]

Just want to report the results of a test drive: Thanks to a friend I was able to connect a Benq display to my computer. To no avail. With my friend's computer the Benq rendered decent colors (also in combination with a LG-sRGB-display next to it), but with my computer it is a different story (yes, I used a fresh icc profile I created with my X-Rite colorimeter). Therefore, I took the Eizo to my friend's place to test it with his computer. The result: decent colors.

So, my conlusion is: Something is broken or misconfigured under the hood of my pc. But without a degree in computer science I might not be able to get to the core of the issue. On the surface everything looks configured correctly, but somehow it is not. At least I can roule out that the display hardware is broken.

On a sidenode: If I switch off icc settings with my second display (Dell) and let Windows decide how to address colors, both monitors look very similar in terms of tonality (temperature). Still, the Eizo is way oversaturated and overly bright, but the Dell shows warmer colors now. If I go back to icc profiles for the Dell, it renders colors much cooler, darker and dull, again. 

Next, I will try to get hold of a different graphics adapter...